Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe
If you believe thats how they are doing it then I have beachfront land in Arizona to sell you.

I said that it could be done that way. For all I know, the DOJ hasn't stopped giving firearms to criminals, and not just those with official IDs. All these 'events' seem to happen at what are strangely opportune times for the enemies of the RKBA. I do believe they are ever ready with their fill in the blank spiels, bills to throw in the hopper, etc. in the event of such an occurrence, and that is how they whip that stuff out so quickly.

(As an aside,, you'd think the GOP could have followed that concept for general legislation to fulfill their promises when they got control of both houses of Congress, but no.)

[driftdiver]

I said that it could be done that way. For all I know, the DOJ hasn't stopped giving firearms to criminals, and not just those with official IDs. All these 'events' seem to happen at what are strangely opportune times for the enemies of the RKBA. I do believe they are ever ready with their fill in the blank spiels, bills to throw in the hopper, etc. in the event of such an occurrence, and that is how they whip that stuff out so quickly.

(As an aside,, you'd think the GOP could have followed that concept for general legislation to fulfill their promises when they got control of both houses of Congress, but no.)

@Smokin Joe
I don't think the GOP has more than 2 or 3 Congress critters that have an ounce of integrity.  I think they are all owned by special interests or people with blackmail material.

In short, Congress does not work for the American public. 

[driftdiver]

There was an idea I shared a while ago, from maybe NC or SC, where private parties could go to the Sheriff's office to do the background check.  There was no paperwork kept; the Sheriff just verified that the person could buy the gun.  I don't believe there was any "registration" at all.  The other possibility I'd seen, is that private parties would go to a gun store to process the background check.  I guess the gun store would keep a record of sale.

I thought the Sheriff option sounded good; no registration, just making sure the buyer wasn't an illegal alien or whatever.  What do you think of that idea?

@LauraTXNM
It would also make it convenient to arrest the person since trying to buy a firearm if you are prohibited is a crime.

Just curious, what other constitutional rights should we have to go down to the sheriff and get their permission before exercising?  What about the sheriff who doesn't want anyone to own a firearm?

Heck when I got my fingerprints taken for my CCW the police dept screwed up 5 times.   The ONLY reason they didn't keep going was because Florida law limits them to 5 attempts to get good fingerprints.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

What other Constitutional rights do you think should be restricted and constrained?

I'm going to end this conversation because it is apparent you don't bother reading what I wrote.

I said at the outset that I did not favor registration, and asked if you wanted me to play Devil's Advocate.  You said you just wanted to understand what those argument are, so I laid them out.  While explicitly stating for the second time that I did not support registration.

Now, apparently unable to think of anything else, you get pissy and ask me what other Constitutional rights I think should be constricted and constrained.  After I at least twice specifically said I don't support registration.

You are either slow, ignorant, or a troll.  And I don't have discussions with any of those if I can help it.  I'm putting you on ignore as of now so I don't have to witness more of your drivel.

[driftdiver]

I'm going to end this conversation because it is apparent you don't bother reading what I wrote.

I said at the outset that I did not favor registration, and asked if you wanted me to play Devil's Advocate.  You said you just wanted to understand what those argument are, so I laid them out.  While explicitly stating for the second time that I did not support registration.

Now, apparently unable to think of anything else, you get pissy and ask me what other Constitutional rights I think should be constricted and constrained.  After I at least twice specifically said I don't support registration.

You are either slow, ignorant, or a troll.  And I don't have discussions with any of those if I can help it.  I'm putting you on ignore as of now so I don't have to witness more of your drivel.

@Maj. Bill Martin
Yes you said that, and then on multiple posts agreed there was basis for it.

Guess you don't like getting called on it.

[roamer_1]

I spent some time talking with @roamer_1 before about extending background checks to private sales, because that is the other area that concerns me.

@LauraTXNM
The problem with extending background checks to private sales is non-compliance and enforcement - getting a guy like me (and about everyone I know) to do that is the impossibility. I will not comply. I buy cash, using private sales, specifically because there is no record. That will not change.

I will not stop that behavior. What uncle nanny don't know can't hurt me.

[LauraTXNM]

@LauraTXNM
It would also make it convenient to arrest the person since trying to buy a firearm if you are prohibited is a crime.

Just curious, what other constitutional rights should we have to go down to the sheriff and get their permission before exercising?  What about the sheriff who doesn't want anyone to own a firearm?

Heck when I got my fingerprints taken for my CCW the police dept screwed up 5 times.   The ONLY reason they didn't keep going was because Florida law limits them to 5 attempts to get good fingerprints.

Seriously, they couldn't get clear fingerprints???  Was their equipment defective?

I brought up the Sheriff example in the context of private sale background checks.  It was a different idea I haven't seen elsewhere.  I don't care if it's done by LEO, gun stores, whomever.  I understand some of you all don't approve f background checks.

[driftdiver]

Seriously, they couldn't get clear fingerprints???  Was their equipment defective?

I brought up the Sheriff example in the context of private sale background checks.  It was a different idea I haven't seen elsewhere.  I don't care if it's done by LEO, gun stores, whomever.  I understand some of you all don't approve f background checks.

@LauraTXNM
No their equipment was fine.  The people taking my finger prints 1) smudged 2) smudged again, 3) put them in the wrong box on the card, 4) smeared, 5th attempt was the last time.  They were still blurry but the state accepted them.  They were the ones who notified me that they were still bad but per the law they were prohibited from asking me to redo it.   And no I have never been arrested and had no prior interaction with the police to make them hate me.

My point is that the 2nd amendment is treated different then every other Constitutionally protected right.  We just accept that and its wrong.   

[Smokin Joe]

Seriously, they couldn't get clear fingerprints???  Was their equipment defective?

I brought up the Sheriff example in the context of private sale background checks.  It was a different idea I haven't seen elsewhere.  I don't care if it's done by LEO, gun stores, whomever.  I understand some of you all don't approve f background checks.

Background checks aren't the problem, it is requiring a private sale to be documented which is. As you may have read, the BATFE was ordered to destroy the NICS information they had been compiling for months (although the law required it to be destroyed within 48 hours). I have no faith that some agency has not continued to compile such data, in violation of their own law. Consider it a matter of trust violated. (Once bitten twice shy, if you will.)  If I want to hand someone some money for anything--be it a car, a watch, a firearm, a box of books, whatever, I should not have to go to the government begging their permission to buy it. I know I am an upstanding citizen not given to murder and mayhem, and that's enough.

As @roamer_1 said, what they don't know I have, they won't know to look for if it comes to that. If it isn't in a record somewhere, the chances of that record being misused or compromised, whether under color of law or not, are nil if no record exists.

[LauraTXNM]

@LauraTXNM
The problem with extending background checks to private sales is non-compliance and enforcement - getting a guy like me (and about everyone I know) to do that is the impossibility. I will not comply. I buy cash, using private sales, specifically because there is no record. That will not change.

I will not stop that behavior. What uncle nanny don't know can't hurt me.

@roamer_1  Yep, I remember ;).  You did say you have LEO friends who help you do an unofficial "check", didn't you? 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Background checks aren't the problem, it is requiring a private sale to be documented which is.....If it isn't in a record somewhere, the chances of that record being misused or compromised, whether under color of law or not, are nil if no record exists.

Exactly.  It's the documentation of the weapon being sold that is the issue.  When I'm at a gun show, and selling in a purely non-dealer transaction, I've always asked to have it run for the guy who is buying if I don't know him.  There's no record kept of the transaction or weapon exchanged, so it doesn't worry me.

It is important to have the "out" of "I sold that gun to a guy in a private sale, and don't remember his name", because that's the basis for the government not knowing that you still have the weapon.  if every sale was traceable, confiscation just becomes a matter of searching databases and imposing huge fines for those who don't comply.

[LauraTXNM]

Background checks aren't the problem, it is requiring a private sale to be documented which is. As you may have read, the BATFE was ordered to destroy the NICS information they had been compiling for months (although the law required it to be destroyed within 48 hours). I have no faith that some agency has not continued to compile such data, in violation of their own law. Consider it a matter of trust violated. (Once bitten twice shy, if you will.)  If I want to hand someone some money for anything--be it a car, a watch, a firearm, a box of books, whatever, I should not have to go to the government begging their permission to buy it. I know I am an upstanding citizen not given to murder and mayhem, and that's enough.

As @roamer_1 said, what they don't know I have, they won't know to look for if it comes to that. If it isn't in a record somewhere, the chances of that record being misused or compromised, whether under color of law or not, are nil if no record exists.

I get what you're saying.  I just think it's creepy that a stranger could buy a gun privately with nobody checking that they're not crazy or something.  I don't care about registration.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I get what you're saying.  I just think it's creepy that a stranger could buy a gun privately with nobody checking that they're not crazy or something.  I don't care about registration.

You can sell a car the same way to anyone you want.  It may not be registered, but that is not the seller's problem is it?

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1  Yep, I remember ;).  You did say you have LEO friends who help you do an unofficial "check", didn't you?

@LauraTXNM
Sure - if the transaction makes me itchy... If the transaction is bad, I will always walk away. If the transaction is good, I'll just buy. It's only when it feels good, but throws a few warning flags that I might consult a LEO to be sure.

Exactly the same as with cars, or smalls of significant value, or anything else.

See?
I do not run every transaction through a LEO. heck, I doubt I run 1 in 10 or 20.

[Elderberry]

Gun Sales in North Carolina

Private Sales

A background check is required for private handgun sales but not for long guns. To purchase a handgun a person must present either a pistol purchase permit or concealed carry permit and be at least 18 years old. The pistol permit can only be obtained from the local sheriffs office in the county the applcant resides in. Before issuing the permit the sheriffs office will conduct a background check on the person requesting the permit.

The conditions can vary between the 100 or so counties in North Carolina with some requiring waiting periods, proof of moral character, a reason the permit is required (self defense, hunting, collecting or target shooting) or a limit on the number of permits applied for. A fee of around $5 is usually charged for the permit.

Purchase permits were originally introduced as a way to prevent minorities from obtaining handguns and are a relic of the past which has never been removed from the law books.

Dealer Sales

Handgun sales through dealers are the same as above with a pistol permit or concealed carry permit being required. The main difference is you would need to be at least 21 years old to buy a handgun. You can still purchase a rifle or shotgun if at least 18 years old from a licensed dealer.

[Smokin Joe]

Gun Sales in North Carolina

Private Sales

A background check is required for private handgun sales but not for long guns. To purchase a handgun a person must present either a pistol purchase permit or concealed carry permit and be at least 18 years old. The pistol permit can only be obtained from the local sheriffs office in the county the applcant resides in. Before issuing the permit the sheriffs office will conduct a background check on the person requesting the permit.

The conditions can vary between the 100 or so counties in North Carolina with some requiring waiting periods, proof of moral character, a reason the permit is required (self defense, hunting, collecting or target shooting) or a limit on the number of permits applied for. A fee of around $5 is usually charged for the permit.

Purchase permits were originally introduced as a way to prevent minorities from obtaining handguns and are a relic of the past which has never been removed from the law books.

Dealer Sales

Handgun sales through dealers are the same as above with a pistol permit or concealed carry permit being required. The main difference is you would need to be at least 21 years old to buy a handgun. You can still purchase a rifle or shotgun if at least 18 years old from a licensed dealer.

We don't have to have a permit to purchase here. If you pass NICS at the dealer, you're good. If you have a CCW, you're good. Nothing required by law for a private sale (except the age thing), but If someone seems sketchy, I won't do the deal.

[LauraTXNM]

Gun Sales in North Carolina

Private Sales

A background check is required for private handgun sales but not for long guns. To purchase a handgun a person must present either a pistol purchase permit or concealed carry permit and be at least 18 years old. The pistol permit can only be obtained from the local sheriffs office in the county the applcant resides in. Before issuing the permit the sheriffs office will conduct a background check on the person requesting the permit.

The conditions can vary between the 100 or so counties in North Carolina with some requiring waiting periods, proof of moral character, a reason the permit is required (self defense, hunting, collecting or target shooting) or a limit on the number of permits applied for. A fee of around $5 is usually charged for the permit.

Purchase permits were originally introduced as a way to prevent minorities from obtaining handguns and are a relic of the past which has never been removed from the law books.

Dealer Sales

Handgun sales through dealers are the same as above with a pistol permit or concealed carry permit being required. The main difference is you would need to be at least 21 years old to buy a handgun. You can still purchase a rifle or shotgun if at least 18 years old from a licensed dealer.

@Elderberry   Thank you!  I had forgotten all the details.  The history is interesting. 

[Elderberry]

Did you see where a reason for the permit is required in NC?

a reason the permit is required (self defense, hunting, collecting or target shooting) or a limit on the number of permits applied for.

Here in Texas, if you have have a CHL, no background check is required.

[LauraTXNM]

Did you see where a reason for the permit is required in NC?

a reason the permit is required (self defense, hunting, collecting or target shooting) or a limit on the number of permits applied for.

Here in Texas, if you have have a CHL, no background check is required.

@Elderberry  Maybe the process for a concealed-carry license could be all that's needed?  Then whenever you go to purchase a weapon, your license is all you need?  It sounds like that's kind of the case in many states already. 

P.S. I thought it said some counties might ask for a reason.  If everybody was "shall-issue" with a background check, that would make sense.

[Elderberry]

The states should all go to CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.

[Meldrew]

but, for instance a convicted Felon filling out the form and signing it, they would have sworn by that signature under penalty of prosecution that they were not a Felon and prohibited from purchasing the firearm. I guess there are a lot of strippers to investigate, and I don't mean clips.

@Smokin Joe   Cam Edwards occasionally talks about this on his show.  I don't remember the exact numbers but he says there were several thousand 4473s filled out by felons which should result in an automatic 10 year sentence but only 40 or so of those cases were actually procecuted in 2016. Further, the "felon in possession" charge is almost always plead away by prosecutors.  This shows pretty convincingly once again that the application of the law is completely subjective depending upon who's applying it at any given time.  All the more reason to not register guns IMO.   

[Cyber Liberty]

The states should all go to CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.

I think they should too.  I like that rule here in AZ.  If I want to carry, I put it in my pocket and I'm good to go, with no by-your-leave from some bureaucrat.

[Smokin Joe]

@Elderberry  Maybe the process for a concealed-carry license could be all that's needed?  Then whenever you go to purchase a weapon, your license is all you need?  It sounds like that's kind of the case in many states already. 

P.S. I thought it said some counties might ask for a reason.  If everybody was "shall-issue" with a background check, that would make sense.

When I got my concealed weapons permit, I put down "convenience and self defense". Otherwise I would have had to drag along a locking case. Not one vehicle I drove had a trunk or locking compartment in it (motorcycles and vans). I got my permit.

The nice part of that is that I am the only person who can decide what is convenient for me.

[Smokin Joe]

The states should all go to CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.

North Dakota has, for residents not prohibited from owning a firearm. The permit is advantageous in that it shows you have been background checked and cleared, it is an official document, and is accepted in some other states (reciprocity) as a CCW permit. No permit, the reciprocity part goes away in states which do not have Constitutional carry. Being able to produce a CCW permit also streamlines the purchase of a firearm, rendering the background check unnecessary (although many dealers will do the NICS check anyway.

[LauraTXNM]

The states should all go to CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.

@Elderberry  Is that different from 'shall issue" permitting?