Author Topic: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’  (Read 53379 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #750 on: April 08, 2018, 12:11:42 am »
Gun utopias? Firearm access and ownership in Israel and Switzerland

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267868/

Compared with the US, Switzerland and Israel have lower gun ownership and stricter gun laws, and their policies discourage personal gun ownership.

There is no clear right to bear arms under Israeli law.  In accordance with Israel’s Firearms Law, 5709-1949 (the Law)[1] activities involving firearms, including the manufacture, trade, possession and use of firearms, require authorization.  Accordingly, any act involving firearms for civilian use requires a special license issued by the Ministry of Public Security and approved by the police.  Activities involving firearms for Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) use require authorization by the Minister of Defense.[2] The issuance of a license or authorization for firearms is based on restrictive criteria established by the relevant Ministry.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/israel.php


Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #751 on: April 08, 2018, 12:58:29 am »
@Smokin Joe
I'm not @Jazzhead, but I would imagine Switzerland and Israel would count.  Also Canada, though it's a provincial rather than national registry.

Canadians didn't react very well when they attempted to create a registry.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #752 on: April 08, 2018, 12:58:55 am »
How @Jazzhead still hasn't provided the list of the "MANY" places which have required firearm registration which has not led to confiscation of those same registered firearms, at least in part.


We're waiting. (and waiting and waiting and waiting......)
Nor has he explained why he is not advocating the registration and required insurance for owning knives, which kill many times the people than do rifles.

Waiting and waiting.
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Offline the_doc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #753 on: April 08, 2018, 01:19:09 am »
LauraTXNM
@Jazzhead
@INVAR
As far as I can tell, 1) many of the disagreements with @Jazzhead don't actually respond to the points he makes.  They are less an argument than a slap-fight. 

And 2) from my understanding, this board stands for open dialogue and argumentation without insults and personal attacks.  Your above post is one of many that violates this site's "civil contract".

I respectfully beg to differ, Laura--at least, in the case of my own interactions with Jazzhead.  I have maintained my position pretty stridently, to be sure, but it has been no slap-fight--so, I cannot apologize.  My goodness, I believe my friend (?) Jazzhead has responded to only one of my posts--which post was endorsed by other TBR members as presenting fairly weighty arguments--and it would also appear that Jazzhead has not bothered to look up my references to Eugene Volokh's important discoveries concerning the role of prefatory clauses in the colonists' legal documents.

(Worst of all, when I sought to appeal to Jazzhead via private messaging, I discovered that he has blocked me from contacting him privately.)

Scalia nailed it, as would be more or less expected.  He noticed from the historical context that the prefatory clause does not narrow the second clause as to its own force. 
 
Four other Justices went along with Scalia, even though Jazzhead suggests that some of them did not buy wholeheartedly into Scalia's reasoning.  Their confusion seems to have been centered in strict constructionism (as is seen in Justice Thomas's confusion).  The problem is that strict constructionism--which is primarily exegetical--is an utterly inadequate approach in many cases.  This is why Scalia has said that he is not a strict constructionist, but an originalist.

Anyone who scoffs at originalism is not competent to be handling the Constitution.  The Framers' original, bottom-line intent is EVERYTHING.  And it ordinarily CAN be determined.  Most importantly for our discussion, the Framers CLEARLY intended to enshrine individual gun rights in the 2nd Amendment.   

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #754 on: April 08, 2018, 01:31:25 am »
@Smokin Joe
I'm not @Jazzhead, but I would imagine Switzerland and Israel would count.  Also Canada, though it's a provincial rather than national registry.
In switzerland and Israel, the countries have a far more integral military than the USA. The arms are combat issue weapons. Ordinary hunting rifles and such (which are not full-auto capable) are in private hands and frequently not registered in Swizerland. I can't speak to the rules in Israel.

In Canada, a long gun registry was attempted. After years of wholesale noncompliance, enormous cost overruns, and only a small fraction of those guns registered (Canadians IGNORED the law, en masse and refused to comply) the government threw in the towel and repealed the law.

Those countries do not have our 2nd Amendment, nor is their history comparable to our own in the sense that our country won its independence with the very privately owned arms our 2nd Amendment protects the right to own--arms as capable as those in the hands of any soldier in the world, or more so. 

The list of places which have had registration which led to or facilitated confiscation is long, including such totalitarian notables as Imperial Japan, China, Russia, all of the East Bloc nations under communism, England, Australia, Germany (which also enabled the Nazi regime), and even California, New York and others.

With such an overwhelming number of instances where registration has led to confiscation, and so few where it has not (yet), I am not willing to trust my property nor my country (not to mention my liberty) to the good nature of those in office. We have seen how much can change in a few years just recently, from social experimentation in the military to the sweeping changes which left many Americans who had had health insurance without (I am one of those whose health insurance no longer exists--the company stopped offering it.), along with other changes which I find deleterious in a mere 8 years.

An old rule is that one never grants power or authority to a governmental entity which has the potential to be used for ill, because it is almost guaranteed it will be. So while some advocate registration, I WILL NOT COMPLY, and I know many others who will not either. This widespread civil disobedience (by many of the 80 million firearm owners in the US) can be easily avoided, along with the Wacos and other inevitable incidents perpetrated by those seeking to 'make examples' to cow others into compliance. Just say no.

No registration scheme, follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and leave the tens of millions of currently law abiding gun owners alone--OR--create the largest criminal class in the nation's history and incite or produce incidents which will inevitably lead to bloodshed.

I find it almost amusing that some would have US register our weapons when those from the last administration who facillitated the sale (actually, ordered those sales to go through) of firearms to known straw buyers for Cartels, street gangs, and other criminal enterprises, under the guise of running a 'sting' operation when there was NO CONCEIVABLE WAY those weapons would ever be recovered, except at future crime scenes, remain unmolested.

Clean up the scumbags who, as members of our own government, and members of 'law enforcement' who would be tasked with imposing this type of scheme on Americans first. Then we can have this conversation again. (The answers won't change, but we can talk).

To what purpose would the Government create an entire class of criminals, knowing full well there will be widespread noncompliance, when it has plenty of things on its own plate?  Is this a distraction? Let''s get back to the Border, to the Wall, to prosecution of those who acted illegally under color of law or broke their oaths of office to do deals with Iran and other hostile powers, just for starters. There are far more important fish to fry, rather than try to incite domestic violence and hostility between law enforcement and those who should be able to support it rather than end up in conflict.

No way 5 million AR-15s (alone) have been purchased, often at great relative expense, by individuals for those same individuals to meekly turn around and give up their property. That, mind you is just one of the over 100 flavors of firearms that the 'assault weapon bans' have sought to remove from gun cabinets across the USA, That does not count those built from partly finished receivers, nor other homemade guns, some of which are quite sophisticated. If you consider Pakistanis working with rudimentary tools can build a copy of any firearm made in the world, imagine what Americans can do with some engineering know-how and some really decent power tools in a home shop. Then, too, receivers have been 3D printed using that technology. In other words, you are not going to be able to register them all (an estimated 9 firearms for every 10 people in the US), you can't track them all, you can't keep track of those being made privately, and any attempt to do so will brutally violate all the other civil rights enumerated in the Constitution. So, in a word, NO.

Consider the Canadians projected a 2 million dollar cost to register all long guns in the nation, and spent 1 Billion before giving up, imagine the cost overruns for such a scheme here, with likely even less success.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/01/22/canada-tried-registering-long-guns-and-gave-up/#419f26bd5a1b
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #755 on: April 08, 2018, 03:33:50 am »
(Worst of all, when I sought to appeal to Jazzhead via private messaging, I discovered that he has blocked me from contacting him privately.)

Just more evidence he is a troll with an agenda, and not interested in discussion as he claims to be.

He's here to infect us with his particular brand of Commie-Lib-Socialism that he insists is 'Conservative', but almost everyone on this board sees through his bullshit and has either called him out on it, or ignores him.

I am just grateful he presents his stupid arguments and all his moronic posts which we can then use as our practice kick-bag and shred the middle of his arguments as we would a bullseye on paper marksman target.

His argumentations to register and license firearms needs to be rejected in the strongest language possible with clear warnings as to the consequences.  His silly arguments about codifying Heller as well as anything he has to opine about the Constitution and our rights should be dismissed out of hand with the same kind of skepticism and prejudice you would have if Harvey Weinstein asked you if he can take your daughter out on a date.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #756 on: April 08, 2018, 08:09:21 am »

(Worst of all, when I sought to appeal to Jazzhead via private messaging, I discovered that he has blocked me from contacting him privately.)


Absolutely untrue.  I have never blocked any member from contacting me by PM.  Hell, I've never placed another member on ignore, period.   You likely tried to PM me when I was under a temporary ban.   

Quote
  Just more evidence he is a troll with an agenda.

I have almost 7,000 posts on this board.   I am who I say I am - an old school Republican with a bum leg.   

Quote
Scalia nailed it, as would be more or less expected.  He noticed from the historical context that the prefatory clause does not narrow the second clause as to its own force. 
 
Four other Justices went along with Scalia, even though Jazzhead suggests that some of them did not buy wholeheartedly into Scalia's reasoning.  Their confusion seems to have been centered in strict constructionism (as is seen in Justice Thomas's confusion).  The problem is that strict constructionism--which is primarily exegetical--is an utterly inadequate approach in many cases.  This is why Scalia has said that he is not a strict constructionist, but an originalist.

Fair comment.  My beef is not with with the result in Heller, which is of course correct.   But Scalia's basing the protection of the natural right on the 2A places it at risk, IMO,  because the conclusion that the predicate clause is merely prefatory was rejected by four Justices,  and it easy to anticipate that view being adopted by a majority given the changes in the Court that are coming over the next several years and the likelihood that the Dems will take back the White House in 2020.   

To me, basing the Constitution's protection on the finding of an un-enumerated natural right as anticipated by the Ninth Amendment would probably have strengthened the Heller opinion and made it harder to overturn.  It takes balls to reverse the Constitution's protection of a natural right; it is far less controversial to correct a prior Court's "mistake". 

 As it is,  I believe the Heller ruling needs to be reinforced by codification.  It is uniquely vulnerable because the flaw in the 2A's plain language remains.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 08:25:27 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #757 on: April 08, 2018, 01:10:02 pm »
Nor has he explained why he is not advocating the registration and required insurance for owning knives, which kill many times the people than do rifles.

Waiting and waiting.

I understand your point. And I agree knives kill more people worldwide. But, the nut in Las Vegas could not have killed so many from his perch atop the building had he only a knife.  Besides, knives are ubiquitous and necessary in everyone’s daily life, so it’s too simplistic to compare the two in terms of intended use and lethality. Liberals will never buy that argument.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 01:14:18 pm by aligncare »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #758 on: April 08, 2018, 02:06:38 pm »
Liberals will never buy that argument.

Nor will anyone with common sense.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #759 on: April 08, 2018, 02:54:21 pm »
I understand your point. And I agree knives kill more people worldwide. But, the nut in Las Vegas could not have killed so many from his perch atop the building had he only a knife.  Besides, knives are ubiquitous and necessary in everyone’s daily life, so it’s too simplistic to compare the two in terms of intended use and lethality. Liberals will never buy that argument.
Tell that to the TSA the next time you board. Or pay the fee for checked baggage so you can have one when you get where you are going. Grrrrr (not to mention nail clippers).

There are parts of the country where firearms are ubiquitous, too, and much like knives, seen as tools. In urban environments perhaps not so much, but in rural ones, definitely.
The nut in Las Vegas, the school shooters, and other mass murderers who fall in the category of "terrorist" (often religiously motivated), all are anomalies in our culture. In range parlance, "Maggie's Drawers"--not even on the paper. Unfortunately, those who own these firearms which also have the capability to use them defensively, even against the terrorists, are in the target, in the crosshairs of those who would use these still relatively rare instances of mass murder to attempt to disarm those who would not commit such a crime.

It has been widely predicted that any such attempt in earnest will cause the very outcome it is ostensibly intended to avoid--widespread bloodshed, becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy, which is what I believe those out to disarm and eventually subjugate this country fully intend.

If we look at the Liberal mindset, as evidenced by their actions,

They want freedom of speech--as long as you say what they want to hear. Others must be silenced.
They are using the boycott threat to push Conservatives off the air even now. Effectively trying to silence Conservatism, and even going back to Political Correctness, the entire effort has been to squelch thoughts they do not agree with by making them unutterable. If they cannot be expressed, no one can disagree.

If Liberals would do this to the mere expression of thoughts, what would they do with the expression of force? Seek a monopoly, on that as well.

The Founders saw the corruption of humans in general, in fact, the Constitution indicates an fundamental understanding of human nature when it comes to power. For that reason it sought to limit and compartmentalize that power at the governmental level and reserve it to the people, to guarantee as much as possible their ability to determine the best course of action for themselves. No monopoly of power in History remains untainted (Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely), so the diffusion of the ability to effectively resist that power is paramount to retaining all other rights. As it is, every American not prohibited by virtue of their lack of virtue or mental competence can effectively resist and own the tools to do so, provided they have not abdicated that Right to some local jurisdiction.

To say the 2nd Amendment is the protection of the Right that protects all others is no exaggeration. Had the Las Vegas shooter been a 'freedom fighter' in some past moment fighting an invading army, his capability would have been roundly cheered. Unfortunately, that individual, for whatever motivation (still not understood), turned that capability against civilians. Regardless of that independent event, of that one individual separate from the millions who own such capability, the idea that millions should be punished by deprivation of their property or the right to acquire such for the actions of one person flies in the face of every principle of American jurisprudence. That day over 5,000,000 such rifles were NOT used to commit a crime. His was 0.00002% of that number.

Expressed as a fraction, that's 1/50,000 and of the number of firearms estimated to be in the country, 1/60th of that. In the parlance of epidemiological 'rates per 10,000', we're looking at 0.2 (of the AR type rifles in civilian hands, and perhaps even less), a number that doesn't even come up on the radar. But as we all know, Liberals aren't interested in facts. Emotions, optics, and panic are the tools of their trade.

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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #760 on: April 08, 2018, 03:29:36 pm »
I understand your point. And I agree knives kill more people worldwide. But, the nut in Las Vegas could not have killed so many from his perch atop the building had he only a knife.  Besides, knives are ubiquitous and necessary in everyone’s daily life, so it’s too simplistic to compare the two in terms of intended use and lethality. Liberals will never buy that argument.

Not so.  The 9/11 terrorists killed many more with box cutters.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #761 on: April 08, 2018, 03:38:41 pm »
Not so.  The 9/11 terrorists killed many more with box cutters.

To my thinking, your point is a non sequitur. It’s an outlier to the 2nd amendment debate.

Probably a point better belonging under a discussion of airport security rather than the constitutional right to own a gun for self defense.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 03:44:05 pm by aligncare »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #762 on: April 08, 2018, 03:50:05 pm »
To my thinking, your point is a non sequitur. It’s an outlier to the 2nd amendment debate.

Probably a point better belonging under a discussion of airport security rather than the constitutional right to own a gun for self defense.

It falls directly under the "we have to regulate assault weapons" argument.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #763 on: April 08, 2018, 03:52:24 pm »
To my thinking, your point is a non sequitur. It’s an outlier to the 2nd amendment debate.

Probably a point better belonging under a discussion of airport security rather than the constitutional right to own a gun for self defense.

Trying to introduce knives into this discussion is a non sequitur as well.

Just sayin.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #764 on: April 08, 2018, 03:57:39 pm »
It falls directly under the "we have to regulate assault weapons" argument.

A box cutter is not an “assault weapon.” Unless we mean to register and regulate handymen.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #765 on: April 08, 2018, 04:06:12 pm »
Trying to introduce knives into this discussion is a non sequitur as well.

Just sayin.

We're pushing 800 posts here.  I'm surprised "Kitchen Sinks" haven't been introduced...
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #766 on: April 08, 2018, 04:08:54 pm »
If a box cutter is used in an assault, isn't it an assault weapon?

assault
make a physical attack on.
weapon
a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #767 on: April 08, 2018, 04:09:06 pm »
A box cutter is not an “assault weapon.” Unless we mean to register and regulate handymen.

I guess that depends on how one defines "Assault Weapon," doesn't it.  It's a good thing Mirriam-Webster was kind enough to change the definition last week to mean "Scary looking gun," no?  Like magic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 04:10:14 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #768 on: April 08, 2018, 04:11:06 pm »
We're pushing 800 posts here.  I'm surprised "Kitchen Sinks" haven't been introduced...

Give it time.  Because technically if I beat you to death with my MacBook Pro laptop THAT is an "assault weapon"...can't wait to see calls for registration...insurance and age limits for the purchase and ownership of Apple Laptops.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #769 on: April 08, 2018, 04:17:07 pm »
If a box cutter is used in an assault, isn't it an assault weapon?

assault
make a physical attack on.
weapon
a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.


Newly revised definition on Mirriam-Webster:

Quote
Definition of assault rifle
: any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire; also : a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire

Like magic, "Poof!"  The leftist definition is now in the Dictionary of Record.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assault%20rifle
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #770 on: April 08, 2018, 04:33:14 pm »
Since currently there is no national assault weapon law in effect, I don't believe that there are any "assault weapon" definitions that apply any longer,as well.

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #771 on: April 08, 2018, 04:39:17 pm »
I think this thread should be locked. Everything that can be said and more has been said  over and over and over....

Can I get a second?

If you all agree, I will
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #772 on: April 08, 2018, 04:46:10 pm »
A box cutter is not an “assault weapon.” Unless we mean to register and regulate handymen.
Neither is a passenger airplane generally considered thus. Yet the body count from the use of AR-15 type rifle in a nonmilitary context pales in comparison to that from just four passenger airplanes.

Frankly, I prefer 'sport-utility rifle' to "assault weapon" because that is more the purpose of mine.

How about registering penises. some 1.3 million people in the US alone are dying of or at least have (pretty much the same thing, because there's no cure) a lethal disease commonly spread using that 'weapon'. You gonna register the owners and regulate them?

Next question: This debate has all been had before. The answer hasn't changed, at least as far as the owners of the rifles are concerned. Not only "No." but "Hell No!". Molon Labe!
Now, what is this smokescreen kerfuffle hiding? What nefarious stuff that has been ferreted out about the "Deep State" is being buried behind the trigger debate over the RKBA?  The Dems hid the Nunes Memo behind a MSmedia wall of crap about a "Government shutdown", so what are they hiding now?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 04:54:19 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #773 on: April 08, 2018, 04:53:29 pm »
I think this thread should be locked. Everything that can be said and more has been said  over and over and over....

Can I get a second?
Okay, time's up. Now what? Two seconds? A minute? If you don't want to read it, there are other threads to click on.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #774 on: April 08, 2018, 04:57:53 pm »
A box cutter is not an “assault weapon.” Unless we mean to register and regulate handymen.

Of course it is - isn't an assault weapon a weapon used in an assault?  What else would an assault weapon be?