Author Topic: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’  (Read 58517 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2018, 07:21:45 pm »
Basic math makes repealing the Second Amendment impossible (Sorry John Paul Stevens)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/basic-math-makes-repealing-the-second-amendment-impossible-sorry-john-paul-stevens
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2018, 07:33:32 pm »
Basic math makes repealing the Second Amendment impossible (Sorry John Paul Stevens)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/basic-math-makes-repealing-the-second-amendment-impossible-sorry-john-paul-stevens

That's only because we need to take the government away from the old-ass grownups and let the children operate the democracy.  The same way we do when we see them trying to send an old-ass text message.  /Hogg voice.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 07:36:26 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2018, 07:35:14 pm »

The hell you say. A natural right is not subject to imposition. It is natural. You are making it a privilege, assigned by men. What men assign, men can take away.

And the designs of men are constrained by the Constitution.  Which brings us back to the topic thread.  The 2A doesn't address the natural right of individual self defense - the Heller decision does.  The 2A needs to be clarified to ratify Heller, to prevent the Constitution's protection to be taken away by a maverick Supreme Court. 

   
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2018, 07:37:58 pm »
And the designs of men are constrained by the Constitution.  Which brings us back to the topic thread.  The 2A doesn't address the natural right of individual self defense - the Heller decision does.  The 2A needs to be clarified to ratify Heller, to prevent the Constitution's protection to be taken away by a maverick Supreme Court. 

 

You keep saying that, and we're not casting light.  Let me try a different tack:  Are there any rights that are not subject to a SCOTUS decision?  Any at all?
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2018, 07:44:32 pm »
And the designs of men are constrained by the Constitution.  Which brings us back to the topic thread.  The 2A doesn't address the natural right of individual self defense - the Heller decision does.  The 2A needs to be clarified to ratify Heller, to prevent the Constitution's protection to be taken away by a maverick Supreme Court. 

 

NOTHING stops a maverick supreme court except a congress jealous of its powers. It will just imagine another penumbra and declare by fiat.

But a congress, jealous of its powers, renders all of this unnecessary. Because in fact, the Constitution, in its plain reading DOES protect the right of the individual, as any strict constructionist will proclaim. The problem is not with the Constitution, the problem is with the congress unconcerned with it's powers, and allowing a radical SCOTUS, refusing to impeach or limit.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2018, 07:48:28 pm »
The comments to Jazz so far only serve to buttress his point. Everyone seems to have a different perspective on the meaning of the second amendment as written. I’ve heard these same arguments now for decades.

Seems to me if someone finds it necessary to quote writers from the day to explain what the second amendment means to say, and if we want to make the second amendment immune from liberal misinterpretation, we might want to correct the sentence structure to clarify and strengthen the language protecting the individual right to KABA.

We don't need lawyers to rewrite what is already clear, but since we are dumbed down as a society to the point of stupidity and ignorance of plain English - I can spell it out for you in what used to pass for modern English:

Well-trained, armed and able-bodied male citizens, being necessary to preserve our liberty from tyrants both domestic and foreign, it therefore is the people's inalienable Right to keep, bear, possess, use, exercise, shoot, plink, and blow holes into old appliances with arms, meaning guns of all shapes, sizes, calibers and styles - SHALL NOT BE TOUCHED, INFRINGED UPON, "REASONABLY REGULATED" OR OTHERWISE RESTRICTED IN ANY MANNER, SHAPE OR FASHION BY GOVERNMENT.  PERIOD.

Clear it up any?

Or maybe for this generation this needs to be the way it is worded:

DON'T TOUCH THE GUNS OR THE PEOPLE ARE HEREBY AUTHORIZED TO USE THEM ON THOSE ATTEMPTING TO DO SO.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline thackney

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2018, 07:56:24 pm »
And the designs of men are constrained by the Constitution.  Which brings us back to the topic thread.  The 2A doesn't address the natural right of individual self defense - the Heller decision does.  The 2A needs to be clarified to ratify Heller, to prevent the Constitution's protection to be taken away by a maverick Supreme Court. 

False. 

The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

The Heller decision didn't make new law.  It overturned law that violated the 2nd Amendment.
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Offline the_doc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2018, 08:08:36 pm »
The predicate clause makes the right unclear in the context of the individual right to ordinary self defense.  It took 200 years for the SCOTUS to find such an individual right.   It is not merely a question of misinterpretation - the language itself has always been flawed.   

You are taking the position that I believe Eugene Volokh formerly held.  After further study, Volokh concluded that the language is not flawed if we read it in the historical context of other legal documents of the period.  Volokh completely abandoned the position that the language was flawed.  He takes the position that liberals are historically ignorant--or worse still, contemptuous of history.  (For example, liberals are contemptuous of the Federalist Papers--which are important to understanding original intent.)

See my post #52 on this thread for further discussion of Volokh's revelations.  (See also his video ad for Prager U when you get a chance.)

By the same token, Volokh would say that the individual right to self defense was not found by the SCOTUS, whether only recently or otherwise. 

In addition to the Federalist Papers, the Declaration of Independence is germane since it talks about unalienable rights--among which is the right to life and by an inarguably proper extension, the right to self defense.  This right obviously overlaps with the right to liberty and by another inarguably proper extension, the right of the citizenry to use arms to oppose tyrannical abuse of power.

If we were to say that the Founders/Framers never intended the citizenry to be able to resist the government by force of arms, Thomas Jefferson (who was no Federalist) would scream at us for being complete fools.  Speaking of fools, the people who say that the 2nd Amendment is antiquated because it was dealing with single-shot muskets do not know what they are talking about.  Whether liberals like it or not, our Founders/Framers envisioned the citizenry as possessing the same kinds of arms as a standing army--for the reasons cited above.  (For that matter, there were repeating firearms, even in 1776, but they were too expensive until Madison and Monroe encouraged mass production techniques for the expressed purpose of making the best possible firearms widely available to private citizens.)

We've had too much of the infringement crap already.  Please pardon me for being suspicious of gun registration.  Twentieth Century tyrants have used gun registration records against their citizens.

Online libertybele

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2018, 08:10:03 pm »
Basic math makes repealing the Second Amendment impossible (Sorry John Paul Stevens)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/basic-math-makes-repealing-the-second-amendment-impossible-sorry-john-paul-stevens

Great post!  Perhaps the most important line of the entire article is the very last line and one that I think we should all take seriously; ..."Stevens is speaking to the next generation, those children-marchers too young to even vote. The Second Amendment will survive Stevens. It might not survive them.

I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2018, 08:13:53 pm »
False. 

The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

The Heller decision didn't make new law.  It overturned law that violated the 2nd Amendment.



And it did so by first finding, for the first time in 200 years, that the 2A protected that individual right.   

Are you comfortable that future courts will follow Heller?   And you certain that future courts won't rule that the reach of the 2A right is constrained by the predicate clause?   I'm not.

My message is very simple.  Don't be so smug that you know what the 2A means.  Constitutional interpretation by reference to the Federalist Papers is a minority view these days,  even by conservative jurists like Justice Thomas.   The wording of the 2A is flawed,  and it is foolish IMO to rely on one SCOTUS opinion to secure your right.  The Heller opinion needs to be ratified by the People.     
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2018, 08:16:22 pm »
5 pages on what some half dead POS Nixon appointee has to say about something. Nice work people.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2018, 08:18:33 pm »
5 pages on what some half dead POS Nixon appointee has to say about something. Nice work people.

No one's truly concerned about Stevens' opinion.  As has been stated,  the 2A is in no danger of repeal.  But the next SCOTUS could very well overturn Heller.   
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Offline edpc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2018, 08:24:08 pm »
Stevens is just saying what a lot of this past weekend's march attendees think, but won't say out loud.  Now that someone 'respectable' has said it, they'll unmask.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2018, 08:37:28 pm »
And once again despite all the logic and facts to the contrary....nothing will stop our Liberal Lawyer friend from extolling the virtues of gun registration and confiscation.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 pm »
Next week we are going to refight the War of Northern Aggression.  Please stay tuned.

Ah shit. Now this thread is going to go another 10 pages today on that.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 pm »
And once again despite all the logic and facts to the contrary....nothing will stop our Liberal Lawyer friend from extolling the virtues of gun registration and confiscation.

Registration does not equal confiscation.   Be honest in your arguments, sir.   
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Offline edpc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2018, 09:05:04 pm »
....extolling the virtues of gun registration and confiscation.


This calls for a Jesse-ism




The youth will be on every station across the nation with the motivation for the declaration of registration and confiscation.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline the_doc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2018, 09:05:22 pm »
@Jazzhead
@Smokin Joe


And it did so by first finding, for the first time in 200 years, that the 2A protected that individual right.   

Are you comfortable that future courts will follow Heller?   And you certain that future courts won't rule that the reach of the 2A right is constrained by the predicate clause?   I'm not.

My message is very simple.  Don't be so smug that you know what the 2A means.  Constitutional interpretation by reference to the Federalist Papers is a minority view these days,  even by conservative jurists like Justice Thomas.   The wording of the 2A is flawed,  and it is foolish IMO to rely on one SCOTUS opinion to secure your right.  The Heller opinion needs to be ratified by the People.     

Forgive me for not pinging you to my post #114 or to my earlier post #52.

I do not have time today to post any more on this thread, TBR friend (yes, you do have some friends here).   Anyway, suffice it to say that context is crucial in communication. That includes the near context, of course, but the larger context helps us to understand the significance of more terse statements in their near context.  The larger context is the historical context.  And when you are honest about the historical text, every point you tried to make simply evaporates, IMHO.

I have no patience for ANYONE who dismisses historical context in the interpretation of the Constitution.   If a federal judge does not take the Federalist Papers or the Declaration of Independence very seriously indeed, he/she should never have been appointed to the bench.  Disregard for the Framers' original intent, an intent that is quite ordinarily gleanable from historical documents, is just a SCARCELY-VEILED CONTEMPT FOR THE CONSTITUTION.  I am even grieved that we have so many lawyers that don't appreciate this.  (Hey, I know a few very good lawyers, but the 99% make the 1% look really bad.)   


Offline thackney

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2018, 09:19:39 pm »
The Heller opinion needs to be ratified by the People.     

I doubt that will happen.  Not impossible, but a more theoretical discussion at this time, in my opinion.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2018, 09:21:03 pm »
Registration does not equal confiscation.   Be honest in your arguments, sir.

Honestly, throughout history, that has been the most common result.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #120 on: March 27, 2018, 09:37:42 pm »
And some people in the sparsely populated countryside have a hard time understanding the problems that folks living in the asphalt jungles of America face every day. It goes both ways.
I seem to recall instances, at least in movies, whereby frontier town sheriffs imposed "no guns" allowed in their jurisdiction.

So when the "rowdies" came off the range, to town to get wasted drunk and play poker, they were disarmed.

Read some articles for yourselves

https://www.google.com/search?num=20&newwindow=1&source=hp&ei=G7m6WqGvINicjwPqsL_ADw&q=no+guns+in+western+towns&oq=no+guns+in+western+towns&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30k1.1488.6956.0.7369.25.24.0.0.0.0.187.2343.15j9.24.0..2..0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.24.2338.0..0j46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i46k1.0.Bmplz84FNLc

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Offline Meldrew

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #121 on: March 27, 2018, 09:42:00 pm »
Registration does not equal confiscation.   Be honest in your arguments, sir.

Then what is it for?  I asked earlier in the thread

Quote
What is the purpose of registration if not to document ownership and location? Why would you want to help a tyranny take your rights? And even assuming you do, what do citizens get in return other than more tyranny?

Be honest in your answers, sir. ;)

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2018, 09:52:40 pm »
The 2A is a flawed amendment,  but it doesn't need to be repealed.  Rather, it should be clarified to extend to the individual right to self-defense.   Arguably, the individual right to RKBA depends on the whim of a fickle court majority, no different than the abortion right.   The 2A's focus on the militia is its great flaw; it is about time to ratify and confirm by Constitutional amendment the Heller decision.
Flawed in your mind, but perfect for the continuance of the governmental system we have set up in this country however.  It is the ONLY way that our freedoms can be preserved, and you and no amount of anti-gun bigots will ever be able to take that away from us citizens.

I encourage you to keep espousing your liberal bias on all things this country stands for, as it refreshes our fight for freedoms.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2018, 10:00:41 pm »
Some people have a hard time understanding life outside their sheltered environment.




That shelter is invariably an urban one, not one over most of this country.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2018, 10:02:33 pm »
But what's your point?   So there's a narrow exception for folks who only drive their cars off road.   Who cares?   The vast majority of cars are bought and intended for use on public roads, where the danger of harming others is obvious.   Such use requires licensure and regulation - and no one, to my knowledge, goes cock-eyed barmy threatening to start an armed insurrection.   
The point is you once again make a mindless claim that can be proved a lie, and yet you continue the lie.
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