FERC orders grid operators to make room for battery storage

[thackney]

FERC orders grid operators to make room for battery storage
https://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/FERC-orders-grid-operators-to-make-room-for-12746568.php
March 12, 2018

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has ordered electric grid operators around the country to adjust regulations to incorporate electric storage, like batteries, into their systems.

The FERC rule orders grid operators to establish a set of rules that would incorporate batteries into the wholesale electricity market.

The rule, released last month, echoes a decision made by Texas' Public Utility Commission in January to remove barriers to using battery storage on the electric grid and defining how batteries fit into the state's competitive electricity market....

[Joe Wooten]

I don't have any problem with using battery banks, as long as there are NO operating/construction subsidies from the government. There's a limit on how many of them you can use since they are intensely dependent on expensive and rare materials to make them, unless they are talking lead-acid batteries, which they are not.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

This smells suspiciously on how we have current high-priced electric vehicles or ethanol.

First:  Get taxpayer subsidies

Second:  Demand that they be used.

A recipe of completely arbitrary and abusive government mandates that have no semblance with the marketplace.

[thackney]

This smells suspiciously on how we have current high-priced electric vehicles or ethanol.

First:  Get taxpayer subsidies

Second:  Demand that they be used.

A recipe of completely arbitrary and abusive government mandates that have no semblance with the marketplace.

I haven't found a source for subsidies of the battery banks.  If you find one, I would appreciate reading it.

The price spread between high and low points in the demand cycle should pay for these with occasional upset conditions making large profits like we saw recently in Australia. 

Pumped storage is done without subsidies and these battery banks respond MUCH faster.

[Taxcontrol]

In my opinion, kinetic energy storage (flywheel) would be the way to go.

[thackney]

In my opinion, kinetic energy storage (flywheel) would be the way to go.

While they work, flywheels are better suited for high power but low energy needs, brief discharge.  The economics don't work as well for utility sized systems.  They need to operate in a vacuum to prevent a rather quick loss of energy from storage.

http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/flywheels

[Suppressed]

While they work, flywheels are better suited for high power but low energy needs, brief discharge.  The economics don't work as well for utility sized systems.  They need to operate in a vacuum to prevent a rather quick loss of energy from storage.

http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/flywheels

 

[thackney]

You will need the space elevator for the extension cord.

[the_doc]

You will need the space elevator for the extension cord.

Since your avatar is Reddy Kilowatt, I assume that you can give us an estimate of how big the battery (or bank thereof) has to be for handling an average distribution substation for 24 hours. 

(I confess I have a hard time  believing backing up our grid with batteries is feasible.  I also wonder how a one-day power backup would do us much good, since major equipment outages usually last longer than one day.  Also, would the batteries be useful for the scenario of the dreaded EMP attack?) 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

In my opinion, kinetic energy storage (flywheel) would be the way to go.

Hydrogen works fairly well.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I haven't found a source for subsidies of the battery banks.  If you find one, I would appreciate reading it.

The price spread between high and low points in the demand cycle should pay for these with occasional upset conditions making large profits like we saw recently in Australia. 

Pumped storage is done without subsidies and these battery banks respond MUCH faster.

The pumped storage option is the way to go when it is feasible to do so.  It is a Win/Win/Win

[the_doc]

The pumped storage option is the way to go when it is feasible to do so.  It is a Win/Win/Win

Pumped storage (where possible) and/or batteries seem to be appropriate for "peak-shaving," but I am concerned more about protection against terrorist attacks on the grid.  (That's why I asked my slightly snarky [and admittedly ignorant] question about supplying substations with batteries for the event of entire loss of power to large service areas.)
 

[thackney]

Since your avatar is Reddy Kilowatt, I assume that you can give us an estimate of how big the battery (or bank thereof) has to be for handling an average distribution substation for 24 hours. 

(I confess I have a hard time  believing backing up our grid with batteries is feasible.  I also wonder how a one-day power backup would do us much good, since major equipment outages usually last longer than one day.  Also, would the batteries be useful for the scenario of the dreaded EMP attack?)

The Utility battery banks are not for backing up a substation.  If the substation is out, there is no connection to the distribution lines that deliver the power.

Util Batteries are for delivering power when needed most.  Primarily this is the peak load time, serving the same function as Natural Gas Peaker units or pumped storage.



Every day there are large swings in power consumption.  Pumped storage and Util Battery Banks take power at the low demand point when spot power prices are cheap and supply power when demand is high and spot power prices are expensive.

Typically, this curve high point is met with inefficient Natural Gas Turbines that only run for a few hours per day.  It is expensive to build a whole power plant that rarely runs.

The energy storage systems also increase demand on the system at the low point.  This effectively creates more demand for the base load power plants that run 24/7 at the most efficient power point.

There is a few places where batteries are used to provide short term back up to limited generation.  For many years, Fairbanks, Alaska has had a massive battery system (lead-acid) to pick up the entire system load for 15 minutes while the back up generators get started.

Battery Energy Storage System (BESS)
http://www.gvea.com/energy/bess

And yes, I choose my avatar due to my profession.  I've spent decades working in the oil/gas/petrochem field, but as an electrical engineer specialized in power system.  I started life in the electric utility business but was bored to death with the slow rate of work and changes.  I like project work where we build something then move on to something else.  Or something blows up and it is an emergency rebuild to get it back running as fast as possible.

I joke that as an electrical engineering, I'm only interested in systems that can kill you without even touching you.  The voltages should be high enough to reach out to get you just for being too close.

[thackney]

Hydrogen works fairly well.

Hydrogen is an absolutely terrible energy storage system.  The losses for creating, compressing, storage and transporting are immense.  The refining industry is the largest user of hydrogen, primarily hydrotreaters that remove sulfur to clean up the refined products.  I've had to work with those systems several times in my career.

[thackney]

The pumped storage option is the way to go when it is feasible to do so.  It is a Win/Win/Win

Batteries in addition to moving power from low point to high point also provide functions in a utility system that pump storage cannot.  Due to the ability to respond in milliseconds, they are also used for frequency stabilization and upset conditions when large users or power plants trip offline instantly creating a loss or surplus of power in the system.  Not to mention they can be installed in months versus years when you have events like the Natural Gas shortage in California due to the Aliso Canyon emergency.  Also they take acres compared to hectares for the same power output.

They need to be economic.  They do not need to be subsidized.  But they are making major improvements our electrical grid systems.

[thackney]

Pumped storage (where possible) and/or batteries seem to be appropriate for "peak-shaving," but I am concerned more about protection against terrorist attacks on the grid.  (That's why I asked my slightly snarky [and admittedly ignorant] question about supplying substations with batteries for the event of entire loss of power to large service areas.)

That is not their role, usually.  Most of the use is move a ~4 hour window of surplus power 8~12 hours into the future where there is higher demand.

As for a terrorist attack, how would it be different than a Natural Gas Power Turbine?  There is not an increase in risk.