The Chicken Littles Are Hammering Trump on Trade, but Charles Payne's Truth Bombs Blow Their Theorie

[jpsb]

Uh oh @edpc.  Looks like you won a screening of Emjay's latest picture:

@edpc there is really no reason to get personal with other posters here. We can disagree, debate
without getting nasty. Getting nasty shows a lack of maturity.

[jpsb]

That part is clear.  Yet your admission doesn't prevent you from drawing a conclusion.


Enlighten me, Emjay.  Which part "sounds" the best?  Is it the part when he get is completely wrong describing historical events?  Or is it the part where he completely abandons the economic benefit part, adopting instead the all-out war against the Chicoms?  Or is it the part where he fails again and again and again to explain how raising taxes created economic growth?

Come to think of it, you haven't been able to explain that one either.  So it all comes down to the futile exercise of people who know the historical events and the economic principles driving them trying to share that knowledge with lemmings that are rushing towards the cliff edge.  So it is your choice whether to stop and listen, and above all else THINK!  Or you can continue forward undeterred, convincing yourself how the voice beyond the cliff edge "just sounds true and sensible" without actually thinking about what was said.

This nations economy was built behind high tariffs wall. And that's a fact jack. We overtook GB
economically behind high tariff walls. In the era of so called "free trade" where everyone but us
has high tariffs we have gone broke and created a Chicom super power that is right now using
it's new found wealth to develop super weapons to sink our warships and shoot down our war
planes. Sorry @Hoodat we tried it your way and the results are in and they are terrible for the
American people and the republic.  Time to MAGA.

[jpsb]

I certainly have not argued that Trump is not doing good things.  But tariffs aren't one o9f them IMHO.

Perhaps, but we do not know that yet, plus we maintain the ability to make military grade steel.
That is very important to our national security.

[jpsb]

@jpsb @Hoodat

And what we keep telling you is that NOBODY would be capable of playing us for suckers IF we had our own house in order!

Trump is doing all he can on that front. He is eliminating useless gov regs. I read his goal
was 4 regs removed for every new regulation. I also read that he is doing much better than his
goal in removing regs. Removed/reduced tax on income earned abroad. Reduced corporate
taxes to make our corporation competitive. Imagine what he could do with a willing Congress.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

He is eliminating useless gov regs.

A tariff is a useless government regulation.

[jpsb]

A tariff is a useless government regulation.

Do you think nations that place a high tariff on our goods should get free access to our market?

[Bigun]

Perhaps, but we do not know that yet, plus we maintain the ability to make military grade steel.
That is very important to our national security.

Yes we do know that!  A tariff is nothing more than a hidden tax on consumers.  They DO NOT punish the people they are intended to punish!

[Hoodat]

Do you think nations that place a high tariff on our goods should get free access to our market?

If it benefits our people, then yes.  I really don't give a damn what it does for the other nation.

I would be willing to bet that lower steel prices benefit US consumers and US manufacturers that use steel to build their products.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Do you think nations that place a high tariff on our goods should get free access to our market?

Bingo.

Trade War is more than a colorful figure of speech.

It's real war, Asymmetric war, the thesis of Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Attack your enemy at his weakest point, if he's not weak anywhere, Make him weak somewhere.

The old adage of 'There's more way than one to skin a cat'.

Bring your opponent to their knees by cutting off their supply train, in this case their economic ability to contest with you.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=iLSiWpLZOcqG0wLbob64Bg&q=asymmetric+warfare+pdf&oq=asymmetic+warfare&gs_l=psy-ab.1.5.0i10k1l10.1006.6554.0.13446.18.17.0.0.0.0.396.2861.0j10j4j1.15.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.15.2855.0..0j46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i46k1.0.5qlunV1Hpuo

[Hoodat]

This nations economy was built behind high tariffs wall. And that's a fact jack.

This nation's economy was also built when tariffs were removed, albeit faster.

We overtook GB economically behind high tariff walls.

Not true.  We overtook GB at a time when we were lowering tariffs while the UK was raising theirs.

In the era of so called "free trade" where everyone but us has high tariffs .  .  .

Whoa, hold on.  Mexico and Canada don't have tariffs against us.  Yet you believe that should be renegotiated?

.  .  . we have gone broke and created a Chicom super power that is right now using it's new found wealth to develop super weapons to sink our warships and shoot down our war planes.

That is a totally different topic, and one that a 25% tariff on steel will do absolutely nothing to fix.

Sorry @Hoodat we tried it your way and the results are in and they are terrible for the American people and the republic.  Time to MAGA.

Once again, please explain to me how forcing Americans to pay 25% more for steel will benefit America.

[INVAR]

Once again, please explain to me how forcing Americans to pay 25% more for steel will benefit America.

Because it is now believed that empowering government to limit what Americans can choose for the purpose of keeping unions in business is how America became a superpower.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

I seem to remember Reagan raising hell with Euro nations for exporting Dual Use technologies (civilian and military) to the Soviet Union, and after he got that stopped the Soviet Union collapsed.

As 1 politburo member groused "That bastard would ban the import of the wheel if he could."

Free Trade with China means we buy Their stuff and they spend Our money developing and building nuclear attack subs while mapping the surrounding ocean floors for deep crevasses in them to hide those subs in.

How does this qualify as Trade?

How many Americans would Willingly continue with this if they knew it was going on?

"Trade" requires a Willingness of both parties to an agreement of mutually advantageous exchange.

Without disclosure of this sort of behavior with our TPP China, what we have is not Trade but Fraud because the American Consumer would not participate if they knew what was actually happening with their money.

Taking money under fraudulent pretenses is not Trade but Crime.

[Bigun]

I seem to remember Reagan raising hell with Euro nations for exporting Dual Use technologies (civilian and military) to the Soviet Union, and after he got that stopped the Soviet Union collapsed.

As 1 politburo member groused "That bastard would ban the import of the wheel if he could."

Free Trade with China means we buy Their stuff and they spend Our money developing and building nuclear attack subs while mapping the surrounding ocean floors for deep crevasses in them to hide those subs in.

How does this qualify as Trade?

How many Americans would Willingly continue with this if they knew it was going on?

"Trade" requires a Willingness of both parties to an agreement of mutually advantageous exchange.

Without disclosure of this sort of behavior with our TPP China, what we have is not Trade but Fraud because the American Consumer would not participate if they knew what was actually happening with their money.

Taking money under fraudulent pretenses is not Trade but Crime.

Once again, IF we had our own house in order they wouldn't be able to do that at all!

[Emjay]

I seem to remember Reagan raising hell with Euro nations for exporting Dual Use technologies (civilian and military) to the Soviet Union, and after he got that stopped the Soviet Union collapsed.

As 1 politburo member groused "That bastard would ban the import of the wheel if he could."

Free Trade with China means we buy Their stuff and they spend Our money developing and building nuclear attack subs while mapping the surrounding ocean floors for deep crevasses in them to hide those subs in.

How does this qualify as Trade?

How many Americans would Willingly continue with this if they knew it was going on?

"Trade" requires a Willingness of both parties to an agreement of mutually advantageous exchange.

Without disclosure of this sort of behavior with our TPP China, what we have is not Trade but Fraud because the American Consumer would not participate if they knew what was actually happening with their money.

Taking money under fraudulent pretenses is not Trade but Crime.

Good post and should be obvious to people, but ... apparently not.

I can't figure out if it's genuine belief, Trump hatred or stupidity and stubbornness.

[jpsb]

That is a totally different topic, and one that a 25% tariff on steel will do absolutely nothing to fix.

That is not a totally difference topic. That is the  topic

Where do you think the communist Chinese get the funds to finance their military? They get it by
exporting stuff to the USA while protecting their producers behind high tariff walls. This is not
rocket science. Their is no such thing as a free  lunch (somebody pays)  and their is no such thing
as "free trade" their are only suckers like us and predatory traders like China, France, Germany,
Japan, etc.

I find it hard to believe you do not get the linkage between industrial might and military might.

[Emjay]

That is not a totally difference topic. That is the  topic

Where do you think the communist Chinese get the funds to finance their military? They get it by
exporting stuff to the USA while protecting their producers behind high tariff walls. This is not
rocket science. Their is no such thing as a free  lunch (somebody pays)  and their is no such thing
as "free trade" their are only suckers like us and predatory traders like China, France, Germany,
Japan, etc.

I find it hard to believe you do not get the linkage between industrial might and military might.

It just seems too logical to ignore, but not only are the Eds and Hoodats unable to grasp it but they are cranky and insulting to anyone who has different ideas.  I almost put @edpc on ignore yesterday but decided he can be ignored manually.

[txradioguy]

I seem to remember Reagan raising hell with Euro nations for exporting Dual Use technologies (civilian and military) to the Soviet Union, and after he got that stopped the Soviet Union collapsed.

Outspending them on Defense is really what bankrupted them...especially after Reagan introduced the SDI plans.

Sad thing about the Dual Use Technologies rules is that Clinton turned around stopped requiring companies to obtain permits that were scrutinized and blessed off on by the Pentagon in order to sell technology to companies in China where it might fall into military hands.  Billy Jeff did more to modernize the Chinese...and by association the Norks Army because he loosened the controls at Commerce.

[Bigun]

Outspending them on Defense is really what bankrupted them...especially after Reagan introduced the SDI plans.

Sad thing about the Dual Use Technologies rules is that Clinton turned around stopped requiring companies to obtain permits that were scrutinized and blessed off on by the Pentagon in order to sell technology to companies in China where it might fall into military hands.  Billy Jeff did more to modernize the Chinese...and by association the Norks Army because he loosened the controls at Commerce.

Excellent factual post!   

[Hoodat]

It just seems too logical to ignore, but not only are the Eds and Hoodats unable to grasp it but they are cranky and insulting to anyone who has different ideas.  I almost put @edpc on ignore yesterday but decided he can be ignored manually.

Speaking of logic, let's walk this one through.   The US government places a 25% tax on imported steel.

Results

• US Steel manufacturers raise prices, which raises their profitability per ton without having to lift a finger to improve efficiency or become more competitive.
  
• Chinese steel manufacturers are relatively unaffected since only 0.12% of their output is sold to the US.
• American manufacturers who rely on steel to make their products will see a decline in both profitability per unit as well as sales.  Their products become more expensive to make, and because of the higher cost, harder to sell.
• Competing Chinese manufacturers benefit because their primary raw material cost is now 20% lower than their US counterparts.  So their products become even more desirable than US products because of lower price tag, thus replacing US market share on the world market.
• Eight of the top ten steel importers to the US retaliate by placing their own tariffs against us.
  
  Brazil
  India
  Japan
  Germany
  Taiwan
  Turkey
  Russia
  South Korea
  
  This will further depress more exports for US manufacturers.
  

And let's not forget that the standard of living will go down for every American consumer who now has to pay a price for steel that is 25% higher than the rest of the world pays.


So who does that help?  American Steel manufacturers and Chinese steel goods manufacturers.

Who does it hurt?  American steel goods manufacturers, American consumers, and American producers of whatever businesses get hit with retaliatory tariffs.

So @Emjay, explain the logic of doing something that helps China and hurts the US?

[Bigun]

Speaking of logic, let's walk this one through.   The US government places a 25% tax on imported steel.

Results

• US Steel manufacturers raise prices, which raises their profitability per ton without having to lift a finger to improve efficiency or become more competitive.
  
• Chinese steel manufacturers are relatively unaffected since only 0.12% of their output is sold to the US.
• American manufacturers who rely on steel to make their products will see a decline in both profitability per unit as well as sales.  Their products become more expensive to make, and because of the higher cost, harder to sell.
• Competing Chinese manufacturers benefit because their primary raw material cost is now 20% lower than their US counterparts.  So their products become even more desirable than US products because of lower price tag, thus replacing US market share on the world market.
• Eight of the top ten steel importers to the US retaliate by placing their own tariffs against us.
  
  Brazil
  India
  Japan
  Germany
  Taiwan
  Turkey
  Russia
  South Korea
  
  This will further depress more exports for US manufacturers.
  

And let's not forget that the standard of living will go down for every American consumer who now has to pay a price for steel that is 25% higher than the rest of the world pays.


So who does that help?  American Steel manufacturers and Chinese steel goods manufacturers.

Who does it hurt?  American steel goods manufacturers, American consumers, and American producers of whatever businesses get hit with retaliatory tariffs.

So @Emjay, explain the logic of doing something that helps China and hurts the US?

@Hoodat

Yet another excellent and quite factual analysis!   

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat @Bigun

I am pretty sure that Trump either eliminated or greatly reduced the tax on income earned
abroad.

@jpsb

Pretty sure, eh?  You might want to double-check your source on that.  Because there have been zero changes made on either personal or corporate income earned overseas since Trump took office.

[jpsb]

Speaking of logic, let's walk this one through.   The US government places a 25% tax on imported steel.

Results

• US Steel manufacturers raise prices, which raises their profitability per ton without having to lift a finger to improve efficiency or become more competitive.
  

That would be a very foolish move by US Steel producers. One never knows but I find it hard to
believe management could be that stupid.

• Chinese steel manufacturers are relatively unaffected since only 0.12% of their output is sold to the US.

China routes thru other nations so there is no telling how much Chinese steel is coming to the
USA.

• American manufacturers who rely on steel to make their products will see a decline in both profitability per unit as well as sales.  Their products become more expensive to make, and because of the higher cost, harder to sell.

Maybe and then again maybe not. Quality plays a role in buying decisions. Just recently I decided
to buy a piece of heavy equipment and paid $1,000 more for the one made with German steel
rather then the one made with poorer quality Asian steel.

• Competing Chinese manufacturers benefit because their primary raw material cost is now 20% lower than their US counterparts.  So their products become even more desirable than US products because of lower price tag, thus replacing US market share on the world market.

That might be true for a crow bar but most thing are not made entirely from steel.

• Eight of the top ten steel importers to the US retaliate by placing their own tariffs against us.
  
  Brazil
  India
  Japan
  Germany
  Taiwan
  Turkey
  Russia
  South Korea
  
  This will further depress more exports for US manufacturers.
  

And let's not forget that the standard of living will go down for every American consumer who now has to pay a price for steel that is 25% higher than the rest of the world pays.


So who does that help?  American Steel manufacturers and Chinese steel goods manufacturers.

Who does it hurt?  American steel goods manufacturers, American consumers, and American producers of whatever businesses get hit with retaliatory tariffs.

So @Emjay, explain the logic of doing something that helps China and hurts the US?

If they charge us 10% to be in their market I see no reason why we can't charge them 10% to be
in our market.

[Hoodat]

If they charge us 10% to be in their market I see no reason why we can't charge them 10% to be in our market.

But we're not talking about that.  We're talking about imposing a 25% tariff on imported steel which will hurt the US and help China.

[Bigun]

If they charge us 10% to be in their market I see no reason why we can't charge them 10% to be
in our market.

So how does making U.S. producers of products that use steel as a component of their product(s) pay 25% more for steel aid us in getting into the Chinese market?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Hoodat]

So how does making U.S. producers of products that use steel as a component of their product(s) pay 25% more for steel aid us in getting into the Chinese market?  Inquiring minds want to know.

And how does forcing Americans to pay 10% more for Chinese products help the American consumer who has now lost the opportunity to purchase something else (or save) with that extra 10%.

Which brings us once again to the same question that has yet to be answered.  How does raising taxes promote economic growth?