Author Topic: The Chicken Littles Are Hammering Trump on Trade, but Charles Payne's Truth Bombs Blow Their Theorie  (Read 9628 times)

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Offline goodwithagun

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You are not a patriotic American you are a globalist consumer. The Marxists are going eat your
lunch.

Hey @INVAR ! I think @Hoodat just won a movie poster  :silly: :silly: :silly: I think a zombie movie would be a great fit!
I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline EasyAce

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Hey @INVAR ! I think @Hoodat just won a movie poster  :silly: :silly: :silly: I think a zombie movie would be a great fit!
Actually, zombies have made nicer music than the protectionists do . . .

The Zombies, Odessey and Oracle

! No longer available


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline txradioguy

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Gee, that sounds like something John Kerry's wife would say.  And all because I believe in freedom of choice.  Go figure.

And there you have the mindset of a Trump zealot in a nutshell.

Support anything and everything Trump says and doesnor you're un-Patriotic.

Because you know only Populism is patriotic.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline DB

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You are not a patriotic American you are a globalist consumer. The Marxists are going eat your
lunch.

I always find it interesting when people believe that free people will be trounced by slaves. That top down management of everything by a lawless government will surpass free people doing what free people do. Slavery at best works for a little while... Kind of like socialism... But once the primary people resources are consumed there's hell to pay... Every time...

Offline Hoodat

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Here's a story on a steel mill in China that was shut down in 2015.  Lost capacity - 2 million metric tons per year


China’s Shift Away From Industry Drains Life From a Steel Town
Company towns dependent on closed factories are being uprooted, reminiscent of Rust Belt America

By Chuin-Wei Yap     |     Updated Sept. 8, 2015 5:38 a.m. ET


https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-shift-away-from-industry-drains-life-from-a-steel-town-1441652778

If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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The Fall of Steel in China: A Primer

Sep 8, 2015 7:45 am HKT


Of all the industrial metals used to build modern China, none are bound as closely to the country’s contemporary history as steel. Its manufacture was once a symbol of national pride—and an imperative to repair a war-ravaged country.

Keen to put China on par with industrialized nations, Mao Zedong in the 1950s stoked the national obsession, calling for an iron smelter in every backyard. Farmers melted down many of their earthly belongings, including door knobs and cutlery, to meet the government’s steelmaking targets.

Today, steel is out of favor in China. In the five years up to 2017, Beijing wants 80 million metric tons of old steelmaking capacity wiped from existence nationwide. The amount comes to 7% of total current capacity. Official data indicate China is on track to achieve that target.

The bosses of steel plants, once ardently courted by party bureaucrats and business leaders, told reporters three years ago that they no longer felt welcome in Beijing – or even their hometowns. Mills are under pressure to move beyond city limits, accused of polluting the environment where once they were seen as providers of lifelong job security. Shougang Group Corp., once based in Beijing, had by 2009 been relocated to the coastal port of Caofeidian. Baosteel Group Corp., once the darling of Shanghai, has had to consolidate its operations in the southern province of Guangdong.

What happened?

Some of it is the maturing of environmental policy. As Chinese got wealthier, they became more aware of the health risks of the smog generated by the thousands of steel mills strewn across the country. Public pressure grew on the government, and President Xi Jinping last November unveiled historic climate targets to reduce coal use that would inevitably hit the steel sector, one of coal’s largest buyers.

Another reason relates to China’s economic slowdown – and a debt-laden backlash rooted in the expansive ambitions of wealthy mills.

Six years ago, to fend off the effects of the U.S. subprime mortgage collapse, Beijing flooded its banking system with trillions of yuan and told banks to lend aggressively. One of the prime beneficiaries was the steel industry. As state-owned giants, they already enjoyed close ties with the nation’s largest banks. From 2008 to 2014, Chinese mills added about 540 million tons of steelmaking capacity, by now totaling 1.2 billion tons – 14 times the annual steel output of the U.S.

Consumption didn’t keep pace. By 2014, it was becoming obvious even to government economic planners that China’s steel demand wasn’t growing. As mill oversupply flooded the market, Chinese steel prices fell 55% from 2012, and haven’t stopped falling yet.

Mills are now under pressure as China’s economy slows to its weakest growth level in 25 years. The industries that feed their furnaces have already been sinking, in part due to global oversupply as well. Iron ore quarries in northern mining counties have become ghost towns. Coal mines are disappearing. Steel mills are finding they can no longer pay for the debt they so eagerly took on.

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/09/08/the-fall-of-steel-in-china-a-primer/
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DB

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The Fall of Steel in China: A Primer

Sep 8, 2015 7:45 am HKT


Of all the industrial metals used to build modern China, none are bound as closely to the country’s contemporary history as steel. Its manufacture was once a symbol of national pride—and an imperative to repair a war-ravaged country.

Keen to put China on par with industrialized nations, Mao Zedong in the 1950s stoked the national obsession, calling for an iron smelter in every backyard. Farmers melted down many of their earthly belongings, including door knobs and cutlery, to meet the government’s steelmaking targets.

Today, steel is out of favor in China. In the five years up to 2017, Beijing wants 80 million metric tons of old steelmaking capacity wiped from existence nationwide. The amount comes to 7% of total current capacity. Official data indicate China is on track to achieve that target.

The bosses of steel plants, once ardently courted by party bureaucrats and business leaders, told reporters three years ago that they no longer felt welcome in Beijing – or even their hometowns. Mills are under pressure to move beyond city limits, accused of polluting the environment where once they were seen as providers of lifelong job security. Shougang Group Corp., once based in Beijing, had by 2009 been relocated to the coastal port of Caofeidian. Baosteel Group Corp., once the darling of Shanghai, has had to consolidate its operations in the southern province of Guangdong.

What happened?

Some of it is the maturing of environmental policy. As Chinese got wealthier, they became more aware of the health risks of the smog generated by the thousands of steel mills strewn across the country. Public pressure grew on the government, and President Xi Jinping last November unveiled historic climate targets to reduce coal use that would inevitably hit the steel sector, one of coal’s largest buyers.

Another reason relates to China’s economic slowdown – and a debt-laden backlash rooted in the expansive ambitions of wealthy mills.

Six years ago, to fend off the effects of the U.S. subprime mortgage collapse, Beijing flooded its banking system with trillions of yuan and told banks to lend aggressively. One of the prime beneficiaries was the steel industry. As state-owned giants, they already enjoyed close ties with the nation’s largest banks. From 2008 to 2014, Chinese mills added about 540 million tons of steelmaking capacity, by now totaling 1.2 billion tons – 14 times the annual steel output of the U.S.

Consumption didn’t keep pace. By 2014, it was becoming obvious even to government economic planners that China’s steel demand wasn’t growing. As mill oversupply flooded the market, Chinese steel prices fell 55% from 2012, and haven’t stopped falling yet.

Mills are now under pressure as China’s economy slows to its weakest growth level in 25 years. The industries that feed their furnaces have already been sinking, in part due to global oversupply as well. Iron ore quarries in northern mining counties have become ghost towns. Coal mines are disappearing. Steel mills are finding they can no longer pay for the debt they so eagerly took on.

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/09/08/the-fall-of-steel-in-china-a-primer/

The short of it is, buy cheap steel while you can...

Offline INVAR

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Hey @INVAR ! I think @Hoodat just won a movie poster  :silly: :silly: :silly: I think a zombie movie would be a great fit!

You had to ask.

Okay - next time I start charging for these.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Emjay

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Well if you put a tariff on those parts your son-in-law will have to pay more for those parts that he couldn't afford locally. And if his products are sold outside the country he won't sell them anymore because others outside the country will still be able purchase the lower cost parts undercutting him.

If we become an island of higher prices the world will pass us by.

The only way to go forward successfully is be competitive. Period. If we can't be competitive we will wither away. Trade barriers will not protect us.

Look, that's what I think Trump is trying to do here ... make us competitive.  All the hyperbole about the danger of tariffs is from a long forgotten age and we have no real idea of how it would work currently.

The world will not pass us by.  We are the most prosperous nation.

If there is a market for the parts my SIL needs and obviously there is, he will be able to buy them.  If he cannot, he will improvise and do something else.  Why would you want a small business to fail?

You are arguing with yourself?  We cannot be completely competitive if the products we export are heavily taxed/tariffed and the products we import are not. 

It is just common sense.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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So we should just let China take over our steel making industry? You do know that steel in a vital
national product. US military uses lots of steel to make tanks and ships and all sorts of stuff. You
want us to be dependent on a foreign power for steel?

It is going to take 3 months to restart a blast furnace in Ill. The only reason it can be restarted
is because it kept warm for the last two years. Building one takes years. It is stupid to let China
or any other nation take over the steel market in the USA.

@jpsb   Thanks for hanging in here and attempting to explain things in a rational manner.  I appreciate your posts.

@txradioguy   I see you are back in the fray and I want to request that you stifle the urge you may have to post that I am trying to kiss jpsb anywhere on his anatomy, except maybe his forehead.  Yesterday, you were quite offensive.  I've been informed that you are a Texan which is good but no particular virtue.  I'm one also and always will be even though I live in Kihei now.  I was also told that you are a serviceman and so, thank you for your service.  But neither of those attributes makes you an expert on tariffs.

None of us are. 

But some of us are sure we are, which is fine as long as we keep it civil.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Hoodat

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You had to ask.

Okay - next time I start charging for these.


@INVAR  - You Rock !!!
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Look, that's what I think Trump is trying to do here ... make us competitive.  All the hyperbole about the danger of tariffs is from a long forgotten age and we have no real idea of how it would work currently.

The world will not pass us by.  We are the most prosperous nation.

If there is a market for the parts my SIL needs and obviously there is, he will be able to buy them.  If he cannot, he will improvise and do something else.  Why would you want a small business to fail?

You are arguing with yourself?  We cannot be completely competitive if the products we export are heavily taxed/tariffed and the products we import are not. 

It is just common sense.

You're a common sense person Emjay.  I think that is the best kind of sense.

Maybe President Trump is right.  Maybe the tariff will help other countries recognize the importance of American markets.
But I doubt it.  I think we both know where this is headed.  I think we both understand that our trading allies are satisfied to let America flounder even though it means America can't buy more of their stuff.

Even if retaliatory tariffs mean the destruction of American trade, they might be content to destroy Trump at the cost of their own countries, as long as the national masses cheer the demise of Trump.

I certainly don't want to let them get away with it, but when they remind me what a huge stinking pile of crap Trump is, I have a hard time being angry with them over their nearly identical assessment as mine.


Offline Hoodat

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Look, that's what I think Trump is trying to do here ... make us competitive.

Innovation is what makes us competitive - not government taxes.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline INVAR

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Innovation is what makes us competitive - not government taxes.

Today's "Conservatives" in the Trumplican party do.

Deficit spending, due process maybe later, Asset forfeiture without being charged with any crime, and taxes/tariffs are the new "Conservative" agenda items in this brave new Amerika.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Bigun

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Innovation is what makes us competitive - not government taxes.

Innovation and sound domestic economic policy is a winning combination!  The Steel industry in this country has seen neither in this country for a LONG time.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DB

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Look, that's what I think Trump is trying to do here ... make us competitive.  All the hyperbole about the danger of tariffs is from a long forgotten age and we have no real idea of how it would work currently.

The world will not pass us by.  We are the most prosperous nation.

If there is a market for the parts my SIL needs and obviously there is, he will be able to buy them.  If he cannot, he will improvise and do something else.  Why would you want a small business to fail?

You are arguing with yourself?  We cannot be completely competitive if the products we export are heavily taxed/tariffed and the products we import are not. 

It is just common sense.

Well I just happen to be in the tech engineering and manufacturing business where the vast majority of what we produce is exported... I might just have some clue to what I'm talking about... Ask you SIL what he thinks of tariffs and tit-for-tat trade wars and the effects it could have on his business.

As far as "trying to do" good things, intentions are not enough. Results are what counts. Doing things that are known bad policy are bad regardless of how well intended they are. Socialist are only trying to do good things to make the poor better off - but they fail every time at a very high cost to everyone involved.

There's a saying about what the road to hell is paved with...

Offline jpsb

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@jpsb   Thanks for hanging in here and attempting to explain things in a rational manner.  I appreciate your posts.

@txradioguy   I see you are back in the fray and I want to request that you stifle the urge you may have to post that I am trying to kiss jpsb anywhere on his anatomy, except maybe his forehead.  Yesterday, you were quite offensive.  I've been informed that you are a Texan which is good but no particular virtue.  I'm one also and always will be even though I live in Kihei now.  I was also told that you are a serviceman and so, thank you for your service.  But neither of those attributes makes you an expert on tariffs.

None of us are. 

But some of us are sure we are, which is fine as long as we keep it civil.

@Emjay

I'm a Texans too, and a USMC vet.

If an American manufacturer moves to China they must give the communist government 51%
ownership of the factory. Plus share all of the intellectual property used to make the product.

We give them the factory and show them how to make the product. How stupid is that?

We have no such restrictions on a Chicom company that moves to the USA. China also places high
tariffs and other barriers to importing goods from the US. As does most of Asia. In short China
is playing us for fools in trade. They are doing to us, what we did to England in the late 1800s,
early 1900's. And they are using the same methods. Tariffs and other trade barriers.

Now throw in the fact that a top goal China has is to replace the US as the dominate power in the
Pacific and in become obvious that our trade policy with China is insane. It's national suicide. A
service economy will be wiped out in war with a real industrial power like China. Spain made the
same mistake back in the 1600's. Now look at Spain today. Or the UK today. Free trade kills a
nation's economy. Why? Because only the suckers play by the rules. Every other nation cheats,
just like China, Japan, France and Germany cheat.  We are the suckers and we are getting our
asses licked.

FYI, I have come to the conclusion that they are a lot of libertarians posting here. Libertarians are
pretty much brain dead when it comes to dealing with reality. And they have an unpleasant habit
of being "my way or the highway people". They lack the ability of seeing any world view other than
their own.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 02:29:19 pm by jpsb »

Offline Emjay

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@Emjay

I'm a Texans too, and a USMC vet.

If an American manufacturer moves to China they must give the communist government 51%
ownership of the factory. Plus share all of the intellectual property used to make the product.

We give them the factory and show them how to make the product. How stupid is that?

We have no such restrictions on a Chicom company that moves to the USA. China also places high
tariffs and other barriers to importing goods from the US. As does most of Asia. In short China
is playing us for fools in trade. They are doing to us, what we did to England in the late 1800s,
early 1900's. And they are using the same methods. Tariffs and other trade barriers.

Now throw in the fact that a top goal China has is to replace the US as the dominate power in the
Pacific and in become obvious that our trade policy with China is insane. It's national suicide. A
service economy will be wiped out in war with a real industrial power like China. Spain made the
same mistake back in the 1600's. Now look at Spain today. Or the UK today. Free trade kills a
nation's economy. Why? Because only the suckers play by the rules. Every other nation cheats,
just like China, Japan, France and Germany cheat.  We are the suckers and we are getting our
asses licked.

FYI, I have come to the conclusion that they are a lot of libertarians posting here. Libertarians are
pretty much brain dead when it comes to dealing with reality. And they have an unpleasant habit
of being "my way or the highway people". They lack the ability of seeing any world view other than
their own.

I know.  We created the Chinese monster and now some are assaulting people for buying cheaper Chinese stuff.  It should not be the job of the American consumer to defeat China's economic monopoly by refusing to buy Chinese products. 

It should be the job of our  government to level the playing field for American business and I think that's what Trump is trying to do.  Eventually we can figure out the best way to do that if we want to do it.  Obama didn't want to.  People keep screaming Free Trade but it is not any more free than a free lunch

A lot of people are brain dead when it comes to certain words or concepts.

Gun laws are one example.  Liberals keep screaming gun laws and conservatives keep telling them that only law-abiding citizens play by gun rules.  It's so obvious we shouldn't even be discussing it.

And example is Guantanamo Bay.  That word hits an emotional target with people.  My son lives in Canon City, CO  ... prison capital of the world.  There are 7 prisons there including the famous one in  Florence, the SuperMax.  So there was a move not that long ago to move the Gitmo prisoners to the Supermax in Florence.  It would have been a financial boon for the city and cost much less than keeping these dudes in the relative paradise of Gitmo.  They would have been crying for their mommies in Florence SuperMax.  George Bush once wrote about visiting there.

  The whole town was up in arms, apparently, either afraid of those prisoners, or afraid of closing Gitmo.

I don't even know how you feel about Gitmo, but that's just an example of certain ideas or concepts scaring the pants off some people.

Anyway, I appreciate your continuing to post on this subject ... in fact, your knowledgable posts are what keep me reading this thread.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline edpc

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Look, that's what I think Trump is trying to do here ... make us competitive.  All the hyperbole about the danger of tariffs is from a long forgotten age and we have no real idea of how it would work currently.


Yes, that ‘long forgotten age’ way back in 2002 and 2009, when we had tariffs on steel and tires, respectively.  While they didn’t result in a full on trade war, they did cause net job loss for US workers in those industries.  What’s the upside here, aside from political posturing?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 05:26:30 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Hoodat

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If an American manufacturer moves to China they must give the communist government 51%
ownership of the factory. Plus share all of the intellectual property used to make the product.

Not true.  The Chinese do require joint ventures with Chinese companies.  And with a few industries like distilleries, printing, airplane manufacture, etc., they limit foreign ownership to minority status.  But any requirement to share intellectual property is negotiated with the American companies.  The problem here is that the American companies are too stupid and too shortsighted that they cannot see beyond the profits they'll reap four quarters into the future - totally oblivious to the fact that for their new factory, someone else in China built 20 more exactly like it.

I just dealt with this situation with a company that makes catalysts.  They are now building a plant in China - effectively teaching the Chinese how to manufacture their catalyst.  And they are fools for doing so, because five years from now this factory (as well as their factories in the US) will be competing against the 20 new Chinese factories.  Because in that Asian culture, stealing intellectual property is considered "good business".  And we know this, yet we keep giving it all away.

It is our own damn fault.  Our short term greed is our demise.  It has nothing to do with tariffs.  It is just the way China does business.  And American companies are stupid as hell to play along.

So what can the government do?  First of all, STOP TAXING MONEY THAT IS EARNED OVERSEAS!!!!!  If companies like GM that are making HUGE profits in China were allowed to bring that money back into the US without penalty, then we could modernize here and maintain a competitive advantage.  But our country penalizes companies for bringing that wealth back home.  So what does GM do?  They keep investing that money overseas, helping China out even more.

The key is to get rid of taxes - not to invent new ones.


They are doing to us, what we did to England in the late 1800s,
early 1900's.

In the late 1800's, tiny England was kicking our ass in industrial output.




Spain made the same mistake back in the 1600's.

Spain was running hefty trade surpluses in the 16th and 17th centuries.


Now throw in the fact that a top goal China has is to replace the US as the dominate power in the
Pacific and in become obvious that our trade policy with China is insane.

China's goal is to dominate Asia.  And if it takes 500 years for them to do that, they are OK with it.

However, the Chinese government's attempts at picking its own winners and losers is backfiring on them big time, just like it did with Japan.  Their steel industry is now overproducing, and they are selling steel at a loss within their own country.  (And no, they can't make that up in volume.)

Now if you deem this a matter of national security, then by all means shut off trade with China just as we have with Cuba and North Korea.  But do not for even a second pretend that placing a tariff on steel and aluminum is going to fix this.  And do not pretend either that America's economic might will improve.  It won't.  Everyone's standard of living will go down.


FYI, I have come to the conclusion that they are a lot of libertarians posting here. Libertarians are
pretty much brain dead when it comes to dealing with reality. And they have an unpleasant habit
of being "my way or the highway people". They lack the ability of seeing any world view other than
their own.

I can't speak for others, but this poster has asked you repeatedly to show how a tax increase is going to improve our economy.  Nothing libertarian about it.  It is a simple question of economics.  Because it didn't make sense when Obama said it.  And it doesn't make sense when you say it either.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Yes, that ‘long forgotten age’ way back in 2002 and 2009, when we had tariffs on steel and tires, respectively.  While they didn’t result in a full on trade war, they did cause net job loss for US workers in those industries.

Not to mention American consumers having to pay an extra $1.1 billion for tires after the unaffected tire manufacturers raised their prices to match the tariff.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Emjay

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Yes, that ‘long forgotten age’ way back in 2002 and 2009, when we had tariffs on steel and tires, respectively.  While they didn’t result in a full on trade war, they did cause net job loss for US workers in those industries.  What’s the upside here, aside from political posturing?

I think you've made your position pretty clear so your posts are beginning to blur.  It's hardly political posturing when so many people have a knee-jerk hate for it.  It may be posturing to some other countries.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline XenaLee

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I think you've made your position pretty clear so your posts are beginning to blur.  It's hardly political posturing when so many people have a knee-jerk hate for it.  It may be posturing to some other countries.

Funny.  You call it a "knee-jerk hate'.  I call it a common sense Conservative stance based on facts and past history.  Guess which one of us is wrong.....lol.

No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline DB

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I think you've made your position pretty clear so your posts are beginning to blur.  It's hardly political posturing when so many people have a knee-jerk hate for it.  It may be posturing to some other countries.

So being against something that has failed over and over - for obvious economic reasons - is "hate for it" instead of trying to prevent further damage from the consequences if done?

So when the next guy comes along wanting to try a little more socialism with all the the right intentions we should just go along with it... He's just trying to help the poor, etc... Lets just give it a try... Deeper and deeper we go into the abyss aimlessly sinking...


Offline DB

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Funny.  You call it a "knee-jerk hate'.  I call it a common sense Conservative stance based on facts and past history.  Guess which one of us is wrong.....lol.

She rarely argues the point, just trashes the poster who disagrees with her to dismiss their point without further ado.