Fla. shooting survivor pleads for gun control: ‘We are children, you guys are the adults’

[driftdiver]

There is another issue brewing, which is going to bring gun licensing into greater focus: nationwide licensing reciprocity.  I think people in less-gun-friendly states will fight to have a say in the requirements for licensure of visitors to their states.  I can easily imagine calls for national licensure standards.

@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm.   however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.

We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.

[Bigun]

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726

[Jazzhead]

@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm.   however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.

We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.

What's your objection to licensure?  If you're law-abiding, mentally competent and (perhaps, by parallel to motor vehicle licensure) pass a test to show knowledge of gun safety,  then you can own a gun.  It is no great burden for me to renew my driver's license each year.   

Don't give me this slippery slope crap that licensure is a prelude to confiscation.  That's nonsense,  and has nothing to do with the purpose of the natural right undergirding the 2A.   The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government.  The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself and the social compact it represents.   

[INVAR]

There is another issue brewing, which is going to bring gun licensing into greater focus: nationwide licensing reciprocity.  I think people in less-gun-friendly states will fight to have a say in the requirements for licensure of visitors to their states.  I can easily imagine calls for national licensure standards.

When Rights become licensed, they are no longer rights, but privileges granted by government - which are then rescinded, taxed or abolished at their whim for whatever reason they deem necessary.  It may become very costly and time consuming to go through government red tape for you to exercise a 'right'.

Once citizens are required to be licensed by government in order to exercise an inalienable right, they no longer have rights, but permissions granted by the state.   If the right to keep and bear arms requires a license, then in a steady incremental march, speech, press and religion will also end up requiring licensing before one is permitted to engage in those things.  This is where history and human nature always go.

I guess if this is where those who want to feel safe and secure need to go - we might as well declare the Constitution null, void and abolished and just stop pretending we have liberty in this land.

[driftdiver]

What's your objection to licensure?  If you're law-abiding, mentally competent and (perhaps, by parallel to motor vehicle licensure) pass a test to show knowledge of gun safety,  then you can own a gun.  It is no great burden for me to renew my driver's license each year.   

Don't give me this slippery slope crap that licensure is a prelude to confiscation.  That's nonsense,  and has nothing to do with the purpose of the natural right undergirding the 2A.   The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government.  The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself and the social compact it represents.

@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.

[INVAR]

The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government.  The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself.

You truly are a freaking moron.

As if the Rights of Englishmen prevented the tyranny of King George III and Parliament.

[Jazzhead]

Once citizens are required to be licensed by government in order to exercise an inalienable right, they no longer have rights, but permissions granted by the state.   

The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right.   Not the right to own a gun.  The manner in which the wording of the first and second amendments are written illustrates the difference.   Reasonable, non-discriminatory licensure is Constitutionally permissible.   

[LauraTXNM]

@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm.   however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.

We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.

Thank you!  You explained what I said so poorly!  Sorry for my denseness ;).

[INVAR]

@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.

He will tell you all rights, are subject to *reasonable* regulation, licensing and government oversight.

In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.

He believes government should grant privileges, and take those privileges away when he feels they are necessary to be rescinded.

[LauraTXNM]

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726

Jewish day schools here have many of the same kind of security measures.  Yes, these are private schools, and they spend a LOT of money on these protections.  We don't mess around!

[Jazzhead]

You truly are a freaking moron.

As if the Rights of Englishmen prevented the tyranny of King George III and Parliament.

We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny.  We have a Constitution, idiot.   

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

He will tell you all rights, are subject to *reasonable* regulation, licensing and government oversight.

In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.

He believes government should grant privileges, and take those privileges away when he feels they are necessary to be rescinded.

 

Here's the thing, does it really matter what you or I or Jazz think? The USSC has pretty much determined that gun control is constitutional.

[INVAR]

The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right.   Not the right to own a gun.

Well you empower your tyrannical state to come take them then.

I will be waiting.

[INVAR]

Here's the thing, does it really matter what you or I or Jazz think? The USSC has pretty much determined that gun control is constitutional.

Yeah, while at the same time they also determined abortion and homosexual marriage are inalienable rights that cannot be infringed upon.

If we are subject to the whim of 9 justices in black robes as holy writ - then liberty is truly finished.

[Jazzhead]

In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.

Of course I believe in rights.  Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact.   The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right.   There is no specific "right" to own a gun.  That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.   
 

[LauraTXNM]

@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.

The First Amendment guarantees our right to speech and assembly.  But municipalities can require notifications/licenses to hold a protest on public property, etc.

[Bigun]

Jewish day schools here have many of the same kind of security measures.  Yes, these are private schools, and they spend a LOT of money on these protections.  We don't mess around!

@LauraTXNM

Our children are the most valuable things we have and we should treat them that way.  Raise them to be responsible, feet on the ground people in the world as it is not as we wish it to be!

[Right_in_Virginia]

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit[/font

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726 

@Bigun   We might want to be a little careful about referencing Israel as an example.  Their gun laws are pretty restrictive.  Permits are granted to those in existing security positions and the rest are trained to assistant in a terrorist attack. 

In Israel, unlike the US, a privilege — but no right — to bear arms
Times of Israel, Dec 17, 2012

Israel, a country that often appears to be inundated with weapons, actually extends very few gun permits to civilians — only 2.5 percent of the population can legally carry a firearm. But those who are licensed to carry a weapon have proved capable of acting swiftly and effectively time and again to neutralize attackers during acts of terrorism.

***

The police conduct a background check and pass the information on to the ministry’s Firearm Licensing Department, which also requires that applicants present a medical form signed by a physician. The form consists of 24 questions, ranging from a patient’s physical health to his or her history of substance abuse and psychiatric care.

“In Israel it is not a right to bear arms, but a privilege,” said Rabani, standing in front of a case of 9mm. handguns.

And in recent years the privilege has been extended to fewer citizens.

Today, Amit said, there are 170,000 Israeli citizens licensed to carry a weapon, a mere 2.5 percent of the population. Of these, 40,000 are security guards who work in supermarkets, malls and schools.

All licensed gun owners undergo mandatory training, which Shpiro said makes citizens more likely to respond in the event of an attack.

More:  https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-unlike-the-us-a-privilege-but-no-right-to-bear-arms/

[INVAR]

We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny.  We have a Constitution, idiot.

As you have been illustrating, the Constitution is irrelevant to you - because you think inalienable rights are privileges granted by the government that can and should be regulated or abolished when you want to feel safe.

The only tyranny you recognize is bible-believing Christianity.

[Jazzhead]

Yeah, while at the same time they also determined abortion and homosexual marriage are inalienable rights that cannot be infringed upon.

Abortion is not a "right" in the sense that you use the term, individual self-determination is.  Abortion is subject to various sorts of regulations and restrictions.   As for homosexual marriage,  you simply reveal your ignorance.  Same sex marriage implicates the Constitutional requirement of the law's equal protection.  Your neighbors' decision to marry under the civil law doesn't affect you or your life in any way whatsoever.   

[skeeter]

Of course I believe in rights....   There is no specific "right" to own a gun. 

Given some of the other 'rights' you've argued in favor of on this board, coming from you I find this comment amazing.

How your mind must work.

[INVAR]

The First Amendment guarantees our right to speech and assembly.  But municipalities can require notifications/licenses to hold a protest on public property, etc.

That is because a large crowd poses a public safety issue.

When the government is empowered to license and regulate your ability to speak your mind, write a blog, put up a Youtube video or speak in public - you have a privilege - not a right.

[LauraTXNM]

@Bigun   We might want to be a little careful about referencing Israel as an example.  Their gun laws are pretty restrictive.  Permits are granted to those in existing security positions and the rest are trained to assistant in a terrorist attack.

Interesting -- I thought the ownership was higher than 2.5%. 

[driftdiver]

The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right.   Not the right to own a gun.  The manner in which the wording of the first and second amendments are written illustrates the difference.   Reasonable, non-discriminatory licensure is Constitutionally permissible.

@Jazzhead
Yet that right of self-defense is also under attack.  CA, Chicago, NY, and Mass all restrict self defense to some degree.

Australia and England just outright made self defense illegal.

A piece of paper can only restrain tyranny when there is the rule of law.  As we've seen from the FBI, NSA, DOJ, ATF, CIA and Congress the rule of law is no longer respected.

[LauraTXNM]

That is because a large crowd poses a public safety issue.

When the government is empowered to license and regulate your ability to speak your mind, write a blog, put up a Youtube video or speak in public - you have a privilege - not a right.

I guess I see it a bit differently.  Yelling, "Fire!" In a crowded theater should not be protected speech.