Author Topic: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.  (Read 3052 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WingNot

  • Resident TBR Curmudgeon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,659
  • Gender: Male
What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« on: December 05, 2017, 01:28:29 pm »
On Tuesday, the Supreme Court hears oral arguments in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission ­— the case of the same-sex wedding cake and the baker who refused to make it. A state agency ruled that the baker, Jack Phillips, was in violation of Colorado's antidiscrimination laws, and decreed that if he wishes to create wedding cakes at all, he must create them for same-sex weddings too.

But Masterpiece Cakeshop is not about gay marriage. It's about compelled speech.

The Supreme Court settled the marriage issue in its landmark Obergefell decision in 2015. Gay and lesbian couples are free to marry anywhere in the United States, and government at every level now protects their right to do so. But can government require artists, designers, or other creative professionals to celebrate same-sex marriage through their work? Can it subject someone like Phillips — who will happily serve any customer but cannot in good conscience use his cake-design skills to communicate an endorsement of gay marriage — to prosecution, sanctions, or legal coercion?

Most Americans support same-sex marriage. A sizable minority does not. In Obergefell, the high court emphasized that dissent is entirely legitimate. "Many who deem same-sex marriage to be wrong reach that conclusion based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises, and neither they nor their beliefs are disparaged here," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his majority opinion. While same-sex couples would no longer be barred from marrying, he added, nothing should impede the continuation of "an open and searching debate."

Were the justices serious about that? If so — if they truly don't want the legalization of same-sex weddings to become an excuse to persecute "decent and honorable" Americans who oppose gay marriage — they will use this case to say so. They'll reverse the decision of the Colorado courts, and uphold Phillips's right not to support a practice he believes is wrong.

For Kennedy in particular, this case offers an exquisite opportunity to uphold two cherished principles: first, that the benefits of marriage not be denied on the basis of sexual orientation, and second, that liberty is threatened most when government seeks to control thought or speech.

In America, the state cannot force citizens to express a certain point of view. In 1943, in one of its most famous decisions, the Supreme Court ruled that West Virginia schoolchildren could not be compelled to salute the flag: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Justice Robert Jackson declared, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

The rest:
http://www.jeffjacoby.com/20609/what-the-constitution-says-about-cakes
"I'm a man, but I changed, because I had to. Oh well."

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 01:37:00 pm »
What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.

What does it have to say about baked beans and irrational screeds?

Offline WingNot

  • Resident TBR Curmudgeon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,659
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 01:41:18 pm »
What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.

What does it have to say about baked beans and irrational screeds?

That would be volatile/flammable speech. 
"I'm a man, but I changed, because I had to. Oh well."

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 01:43:18 pm »
The author's arguments are all well and good, except he missed the key fact -  Phillips runs his cakeshop to make money.   Phillips sells wedding cakes to make money.  As such, he is subject to the rules of the community, including that he not unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers.   

If I see the sign on Phillips' shop that says he sells wedding cakes,  then I should be able to buy one whether I'm white or black, Catholic or Muslim, gay or straight.  Remember that Phillips refused service without any discussion whatsoever regarding the design or message on the cake.   His customers were rejected solely because of who they were.   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:44:05 pm by Jazzhead »
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline WingNot

  • Resident TBR Curmudgeon
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,659
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 01:48:04 pm »
The author's arguments are all well and good, except he missed the key fact -  Phillips runs his cakeshop to make money.   Phillips sells wedding cakes to make money.  As such, he is subject to the rules of the community, including that he not unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers.   

If I see the sign on Phillips' shop that says he sells wedding cakes,  then I should be able to buy one whether I'm white or black, Catholic or Muslim, gay or straight.  Remember that Phillips refused service without any discussion whatsoever regarding the design or message on the cake.   His customers were rejected solely because of who they were.   


Find a better way to say what you're thinking without the language and personal attack. - Mod3
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:08:27 pm by MOD3 »
"I'm a man, but I changed, because I had to. Oh well."

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 01:51:15 pm »
Removed by Mod3

But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week, so I wouldn't discount him out of hand.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:09:00 pm by MOD3 »

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 01:59:55 pm »
If I see the sign on Phillips' shop that says he sells wedding cakes,  then I should be able to buy one whether I'm white or black, Catholic or Muslim, gay or straight. 

I dare you to go into a Muslim butcher shop and demand pork, and sue them because they advertise they are a butcher shop and refuse to provide you the meat you want.

I double-dog dare you to go into a Muslim-Owned Bakery and demand they make a wedding cake for two homosexuals 'getting married'.

You won't, because people like you are just bullies and cowards that like to use the state to impose tyranny in the name of 'fairness'.

People like you are going to be resisted bub.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 02:09:57 pm »
I dare you to go into a Muslim butcher shop and demand pork, and sue them because they advertise they are a butcher shop and refuse to provide you the meat you want. 


A Muslim butcher shop can choose not to sell pork,  just as a Christian bakeshop can choose not to sell wedding cakes.   

Quote
  People like you are going to be resisted bub.
   You really get off on your fantasies of violence, don't you?     
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2017, 02:28:00 pm »
A Muslim butcher shop can choose not to sell pork,  just as a Christian bakeshop can choose not to sell wedding cakes.

A Christian business can choose not to sell products or services for homosexual celebrations. Period.  End of sentence.

Now, if tyrants like you think you can potion government to put guns to our heads to force compliance and produce products and services to cater to homosexual celebrations and activities - it is precisely why we have a Second Amendment.


 
   
   You really get off on your fantasies of violence, don't you?   

We have an inalienable right of self defense against tyrants.  If it makes people like you sweat in fear, good.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2017, 02:49:05 pm »
A Christian business can choose not to sell products or services for homosexual celebrations. Period.  End of sentence.

Now, if tyrants like you think you can potion government to put guns to our heads to force compliance and produce products and services to cater to homosexual celebrations and activities - it is precisely why we have a Second Amendment.


 
We have an inalienable right of self defense against tyrants.  If it makes people like you sweat in fear, good.

Adherence to the rule of law is not tyranny.   Your conceit that you can mow down those with whom you disagree is antithetical to our Republic as a well as an affront to God.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,977
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 03:02:37 pm »


A Muslim butcher shop can choose not to sell pork,  just as a Christian bakeshop can choose not to sell wedding cakes.   
   You really get off on your fantasies of violence, don't you?   
So a neo-nazi walks into a Jewish owned print shop which designs and prints posters for people, and orders a bunch of neo-nazi posters designed and printed. Can the print shop refuse them? If so, why? if not, why not?

Ignore this question and I'll answer it for you.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,977
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 03:04:47 pm »
Adherence to the rule of law is not tyranny.   Your conceit that you can mow down those with whom you disagree is antithetical to our Republic as a well as an affront to God.
When the law conscripts the creative energies of people who are religiously opposed to something for the promotion thereof, and compels that creation, that is tyranny.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Oceander

  • Guest
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2017, 03:06:12 pm »
So a neo-nazi walks into a Jewish owned print shop which designs and prints posters for people, and orders a bunch of neo-nazi posters designed and printed. Can the print shop refuse them? If so, why? if not, why not?

Ignore this question and I'll answer it for you.

Either the shop owners are smart and say they would love to, but they simply don’t have the time - too busy with Christmas cards now - or else the neonazis get hideously overcharged for really badly designed and printed crap, and when they complain, they cheerfully get a full refund.  End of discussion. 

Offline skeeter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,717
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 03:08:38 pm »
The author's arguments are all well and good, except he missed the key fact -  Phillips runs his cakeshop to make money.   Phillips sells wedding cakes to make money.  As such, he is subject to the rules of the community, including that he not unlawfully discriminate with respect to his customers.   

If I see the sign on Phillips' shop that says he sells wedding cakes,  then I should be able to buy one whether I'm white or black, Catholic or Muslim, gay or straight.  Remember that Phillips refused service without any discussion whatsoever regarding the design or message on the cake.   His customers were rejected solely because of who they were.   

He said he'd sell them whatever was in his shop they wanted. It was the message on the cake he refused to include.

The gays can stick their own topper on the damn cake. This is about bending someone to their will.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 03:14:36 pm »
Adherence to the rule of law is not tyranny.   

It is when the 'laws' of men contravene the Word of God.  I frankly don't give a crap what edicts the government passes or how many millions want whatever debauchery imposed as 'law', because when government mandates contravene God's Laws, I refuse to comply.

Your conceit that you can mow down those with whom you disagree is antithetical to our Republic as a well as an affront to God.

Tell that to the Minutemen on Bunker Hill.

They mowed down agents of a tyranny far less egregious than what you want imposed.

God blessed their efforts and you sit here reaping the rewards of spouting bullshit without fear of government reprisals because they sowed that gift you have with their own blood.

Contrary to your backwards and perverted views of what God finds an affront, standing against wickedness and tyranny is exactly what He expects His people to do.

And I shall.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:15:46 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Frank Cannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,097
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 03:17:48 pm »
and when they complain, they cheerfully get a full refund.  End of discussion.

So the printer has to eat time and materials on a job? How generous of you.

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,977
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 03:19:11 pm »
So the printer has to eat time and materials on a job? How generous of you.
Over something they find patently offensive. Maybe dad had a number on his arm...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 03:59:09 pm »
So a neo-nazi walks into a Jewish owned print shop which designs and prints posters for people, and orders a bunch of neo-nazi posters designed and printed. Can the print shop refuse them?

Yes. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,977
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 04:20:58 pm »
Why?

Because discrimination among customers based on the content of the message they seek is not unlawful.  For example (in a real case),  a bakery can refuse to write "Happy Birthday Adolph Hitler" on a birthday cake. 

Phillips' big mistake was refusing service before any request had been made regarding the design or message on the cake.   He refused service because his customers were gay, not because they sought to place an obscene or offensive message on the cake. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 04:21:23 pm »
In Jazzy's tyrannical worldview, a Christian owned business can be forced to create cakes, stationary, photography, floral designs or rent venues to celebrate homosexual perversions, because... you know....discrimination.

A muslim-owned business - not so much.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 04:32:48 pm »
He refused service because his customers were gay, not because they sought to place an obscene or offensive message on the cake.

Stop your bullshit.  Phillips refused to make them a custom-designed homosexual wedding cake.  It's what his business does, craft custom artistic works-of-art cakes for events.

You keep pounding that bullshit that he refused to serve them because they were homos.  Bullshit.  He specifically stated that they could have one of his generic off-the-shelf cakes, but they wanted a custom-designed cake.  Phillips refused to make one. 

He was right to refuse them. So would I.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,977
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 04:35:35 pm »
Because discrimination among customers based on the content of the message they seek is not unlawful.  For example (in a real case),  a bakery can refuse to write "Happy Birthday Adolph Hitler" on a birthday cake. 

Phillips' big mistake was refusing service before any request had been made regarding the design or message on the cake.   He refused service because his customers were gay, not because they sought to place an obscene or offensive message on the cake.
No, he refused to craft a cake for a gay wedding, the cake is the message he refused to write.

If a Jewish printer can refuse to put something offensive to him on paper, a Christian baker should be able to refuse to put something offensive to him on cake.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 05:37:25 pm »

If a Jewish printer can refuse to put something offensive to him on paper, a Christian baker should be able to refuse to put something offensive to him on cake.

But those aren't the facts.   Phillips' customers didn't get a chance to even discuss the design or message on the cake.   They were refused service because they were gay.   In violation of the law.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Re: What the Constitution says about cakes and compelled speech.
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 05:41:00 pm »
Stop your bullshit.  Phillips refused to make them a custom-designed homosexual wedding cake.  It's what his business does, craft custom artistic works-of-art cakes for events. 

Not anymore.  Check out his website - he doesn't do custom orders for wedding cakes.  I guess he's decided he'd better obey the law.   

Quote
You keep pounding that bullshit that he refused to serve them because they were homos.  Bullshit.  He specifically stated that they could have one of his generic off-the-shelf cakes, but they wanted a custom-designed cake.  Phillips refused to make one. 

He was right to refuse them. So would I.

Using "bullshit" multiple times doesn't improve your posts, just makes 'em appear more childish.   

The facts are before the Court and it will soon render its decision.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide