Author Topic: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas  (Read 36328 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #675 on: November 09, 2017, 05:27:47 pm »
The absurdity of registration and insurance requirements display again the idiocy of making it harder to keep and maintain guns for legal, law abiding applicants, while not doing a damn single thing to the kind of guy who is likely to use a gun in a criminal fashion.

While more and more pressure is brought to bear upon the simpleton who complied with such a law through ever increasing insurance rates and ever more compliance hoops (inspections to make certain you have your guns stored in an approved and required safe, and are all equipped with approved and required trigger locks) either by the government or by its partner, the insurance company, NOTHING AT ALL is done to those willing to skirt the law and use guns to commit crimes. NOTHING AT ALL is done to the gangbangers and drug lords who continue on their merry way, wholly unmolested.

And me, of course... Because there's no way n hell I would comply and register a damn thing. Although my state, which has already successfully bucked Uncle Fed several times, would stand up again for itself and tell the fed to stick it where the sun don't shine might just make the whole damn idea a moot point.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #676 on: November 09, 2017, 05:37:58 pm »

The law will not stop people who are determined to to not follow the law.

That's not a justification for dispensing with the law.   



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Another law, by weight of the law books, by preponderance of regulation, will not make one whit of difference.  Especially when all the existing laws against a felon (or military equivalent), domestic abuser, and mental patient with a history of violence having a firearm didn't work: he was not stopped by the law.

You're right - he wasn't.  But the problem wasn't the law - it was that data needed to allow the law to work wasn't provided.  Garbage in, garbage out.   
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Oh no. No effing way. I currently carry insurance on six vehicles, and whether I am driving them all at the same time or not, I am still required to carry that insurance. My state is NOT a no-fault state, and for that reason I can afford that, because my premiums are based on my conduct as a driver, and my record of doing so safely, not on the behaviour of every idiot who just moved here from out of state who thinks they  know how to drive on snow and ice. 

You may have a point there -  there may be reasons to structure insurance for guns on other than a no-fault basis.  I was advocating no-fault for reasons of simplicity -  no fault laws sure help reduce the need for lawyers, and that's usually a good thing. 

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But carrying insurance on a firearm which might sit in the cabinet and not see the light of day for months, sometimes a year or more, is ridiculous and could only be an onerous regulation designed to make it entirely too expensive to keep a large number of firearms.


Insurance companies price on the basis of risk.  If as you say owning 100 guns is no less risky than owning one, then objective underwriting will reflect that.   

Again, to me the value of registration/insurance is to provide an incentive to report stolen guns, and effect sales and transfers in a way that will lift liability from the seller and transfer it to the buyer - just as is the case today with cars.   

Yes,  these are obligations imposed on law-abiding gun owners.   But they go to the issue of too many guns ending up in the hands of folks who aren't law abiding.   Registering and insuring your guns, it seems to me,  is far more efficacious in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than blanket bans on certain types of guns.   The Dems' proposals are for show;  what I propose goes to the heart of the problem - keeping track of guns so the law-abiding can enjoy them, and others can be denied them.   

« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:40:19 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline thackney

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #677 on: November 09, 2017, 05:45:06 pm »
just as is the case today with cars. 

You keep using the car analogy and keep ignoring me when I point out it is not required for owning, only for using on public roads.

If that is the basis for the requirement, then require insurance to publicly carry, not to own.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #678 on: November 09, 2017, 05:45:46 pm »

What they'd do is create a paper trail right back to the owner making it a million times easier for the likes of Schumer, Feinstein, and Holder to come pick them AND YOU up anytime they take a fancy to.


That's paranoia.   I reject that mindset.   The ease at which criminals can obtain guns in a nation awash with them is a problem that cries out for a solution.   What I propose is reasonable, efficacious and consistent with the Second Amendment as interpreted by Heller.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #679 on: November 09, 2017, 05:48:21 pm »
You keep using the car analogy and keep ignoring me when I point out it is not required for owning, only for using on public roads.

If that is the basis for the requirement, then require insurance to publicly carry, not to own.

It's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   A car that's undriven and kept in a garage isn't dangerous.   Whether a car or a gun,  insurance should be required when the implement is to be used for its intended purpose.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:48:57 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline thackney

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #680 on: November 09, 2017, 05:49:35 pm »
It's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   A car that's undriven and kept in a garage isn't dangerous.   Whether a car or a gun,  insurance should be required when the implement is to be used for its intended purpose.

Again, I can use my farm truck every day, all day long.  Still doesn't require insurance and registration.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #681 on: November 09, 2017, 05:49:36 pm »
That's paranoia.   I reject that mindset.   The ease at which criminals can obtain guns in a nation awash with them is a problem that cries out for a solution.   What I propose is reasonable, efficacious and consistent with the Second Amendment as interpreted by Heller.

It is neither reasonable nor efficacious. It is laughable and ridiculous. And it does absolutely *nothing* to impede the ease with which criminals acquire guns.

Offline Axeslinger

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #682 on: November 09, 2017, 05:52:11 pm »
What a surprise!  @Jazzhead coming down on the wrong side of liberty...again!

You can take YOUR “reasonable and efficacious” and shove it. I find your “solutions” neither.  Keep your grubby little mitts off of MY freedom.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #683 on: November 09, 2017, 06:02:44 pm »
What a surprise!  @Jazzhead coming down on the wrong side of liberty...again!

You can take YOUR “reasonable and efficacious” and shove it. I find your “solutions” neither.  Keep your grubby little mitts off of MY freedom.

You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub.  There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.   

The more I think about it,  I agree with SJ that no-fault insurance probably unfairly penalizes responsible gun owners.  Just as insurance underwriters can skillfully predict liability with respect to good drivers vs. bad drivers, so can they predict and price risk with respect to responsible vs. irresponsible gun owners. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:03:24 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #684 on: November 09, 2017, 06:16:14 pm »
That's not a justification for dispensing with the law.   



You're right - he wasn't.  But the problem wasn't the law - it was that data needed to allow the law to work wasn't provided.  Garbage in, garbage out.   
You may have a point there -  there may be reasons to structure insurance for guns on other than a no-fault basis.  I was advocating no-fault for reasons of simplicity -  no fault laws sure help reduce the need for lawyers, and that's usually a good thing. 
 

Insurance companies price on the basis of risk.  If as you say owning 100 guns is no less risky than owning one, then objective underwriting will reflect that.   

Again, to me the value of registration/insurance is to provide an incentive to report stolen guns, and effect sales and transfers in a way that will lift liability from the seller and transfer it to the buyer - just as is the case today with cars.   

Yes,  these are obligations imposed on law-abiding gun owners.   But they go to the issue of too many guns ending up in the hands of folks who aren't law abiding.   Registering and insuring your guns, it seems to me,  is far more efficacious in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than blanket bans on certain types of guns.   The Dems' proposals are for show;  what I propose goes to the heart of the problem - keeping track of guns so the law-abiding can enjoy them, and others can be denied them.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. No one said to dispense with the law, just that no additional law would be effective. And it won't.  If the law the Government passed was ineffective because part of the Government that passed that law was not following the law, what makes you think any one else is going to feel bound by an additional law?
As for insurance, let's suppose the shooter had policies on all his guns. Then what? The miracuolous insurance fairy would have just flitted over the scene and restored everyone to life and good health?

No, that wouldn't have fixed anything either, would it?
Perhaps the shooter would have just left the guns uninsured? What's one more broken law when he was bent on murder and mayhem, anyway? If he planned to suicide, what are you going to do to him?
Or maybe he would have gone to Denver and bought one of the firearms stolen by the junkie swarm to get money for their next fix. No paperwork no background check, no muss, no fuss, and @roamer_1 's point--those who want 'em will find a way to get 'em.

Or maybe they'd just have made one, like these guys (or gone to someone who can): http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/30/gunsmithing-in-pakistan/https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4de_1371777808

If you think there aren't enough out of work machinists to produce firearms/parts in America, think again.

 
Insuring guns amounts to registering guns which amounts to an actionable database of gun owners who can be persecuted for whatever reason. History proves such to be the beginning of the end of a free nation. I will not participate.

I have six vehicles on the pavement. Insurance for any one of them costs what it does because, in part, of the paperwork and records which must be maintained for that one insurance policy on that one vehicle. Require a hundred policies for a hundred vehicles, those administrative costs do not go away, they are multiplied an hundredfold. That expense does not go away, whether your record is long and clear of any violations or accidents or not, all that gets less in the amount you pay for the liability aspect because you have been deemed low risk. 

I carry personal liability in the unlikely event there is some thing I do which causes injury to another. That insures the actions (or culpable inaction) of ME, not any device which I may be using, or which may be in a closet, on a shelf, parked in a garage, or locked away in a safe instead of in my hand.

You would act as if the device is at fault for the actions of another demented human, and not just his device but the devices that spent their weekend tucked away in gun cases, closets, gun safes, or in a pickup somewhere, and you would shift the onus of the actions of a few who the law was supposed to prevent from doing their particular thing onto the backs of those who are doing no wrong and causing no one injury, who abided by all the laws.

What part of "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. are you having difficulty with?

It even goes back to Clause 39 of The Magna Carta
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No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land

Yet another law is not the answer to the problem.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #685 on: November 09, 2017, 06:25:40 pm »
You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub.  There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.   

The more I think about it,  I agree with SJ that no-fault insurance probably unfairly penalizes responsible gun owners.  Just as insurance underwriters can skillfully predict liability with respect to good drivers vs. bad drivers, so can they predict and price risk with respect to responsible vs. irresponsible gun owners.
Let's get something straight. No I do not agree with requiring any insurance be carried by gun owners to own or carry a gun.

As for registration lists being used to confiscate guns, yes, it has been done on a widespread basis. Let's not take that first step.

Now what deadly risk do I expose others to by owning a gun, even carrying one, and how would I compensate others for exposing them to to this theoretical risk?

Give them dry panties or clean skivvies? Do I have to change them for them, too?

By your logic, the airlines expose me to risk every time there is a plane overhead.
Some jackwagon might decide to seize control of the plane and crash it into my house!  888ohnoes

You are putting the responsibility for the problem on the wrong people, proposing a solution that solves nothing, and making that at the expense and hardship of those who have done nothing to threaten nor harm anyone. That's the quintessential Government Liberal, in action.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #686 on: November 09, 2017, 06:35:08 pm »
That's paranoia.   I reject that mindset. 

Go ahead and reject it, that's your right.  What is not your right is for you to reject it on my behalf, against my will.   
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Offline thackney

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #687 on: November 09, 2017, 06:35:13 pm »
Perhaps the shooter would have just left the guns uninsured? What's one more broken law when he was bent on murder and mayhem, anyway? If he planned to suicide, what are you going to do to him?

Hence the registration, where you will have to prove to the government your insurance is current or....

All this would do is disarm more law abiding poor and make it more expensive for the rest of us.  No deterrent to those that are already decided to break the law.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #688 on: November 09, 2017, 06:36:07 pm »
Why, thank you! And yes, I know I won't convince the poster, but feel duty bound to shred their arguments anyway.
Anyone with a sense of freedom will do the same, although you articulate more effectively.

Some are here that believe surrendering our freedoms is the only way to prevent crime.

There are two errors here:  First, crime is not preventable.  It can only be reduced.  A criminal by his very nature cares less of laws.

Secondly, no patriotic American will voluntarily surrender his freedoms.  Some who do not understand freedom will, but thankfully there are in the minority.

I visited areas of the world like Qaddafi Libya where there were few freedoms.  Yes, I felt safe as few ventured to defy the totalitarian government as the penalty was severe.  It was a sad country as everything was controlled by a power on high.

Did the loss of freedoms 'prevent' crime?  No, but it sure minimized it.

It is not worth the cost.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #689 on: November 09, 2017, 06:36:17 pm »
You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub.  There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.   

WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?

To my mind, it is people who DON'T own a weapon that are irresponsible, offering a soft target to an opportunistic criminal.

That's it. Pu$$y insurance. Make those foolish enough to offer no defense responsible.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:37:08 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #690 on: November 09, 2017, 06:37:37 pm »
As for registration lists being used to confiscate guns, yes, it has been done on a widespread basis. Let's not take that first step.

Has registration ever NOT eventually led to confiscation?  I can't think of a case where universal registration has not used for mass confiscation.  I'm sure there must be one somewhere.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #691 on: November 09, 2017, 06:38:42 pm »
WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?

To my mind, it is people who DON'T own a weapon that are irresponsible, offering a soft target to an opportunistic criminal.

That's it. Pu$$y insurance. Make those foolish enough to offer no defense responsible.
Pantywaist and milquetoast registration! Hoplophobes extra!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #692 on: November 09, 2017, 06:38:52 pm »
Again, I can use my farm truck every day, all day long.  Still doesn't require insurance and registration.

Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended. 
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Offline thackney

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #693 on: November 09, 2017, 06:40:59 pm »
Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.

NO!  That was the exact point.  The insurance and registration required for automobiles is due to WHERE it is used, not how it is used.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:41:16 pm by thackney »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #694 on: November 09, 2017, 06:43:16 pm »
Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.
You fail to discern that that implement is equally dangerous to those who do evil, if not more so.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #695 on: November 09, 2017, 06:45:16 pm »
Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel.   The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.

If you use a vehicle in the way it is intended, you don't hit anything with it. No need to carry insurance for that, only when it is used in a way in which it was not intended, and you run into things.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #696 on: November 09, 2017, 06:45:46 pm »
WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?


The need to be responsible is inherent in the ownership of a deadly implement that has the capacity to harm others.  Insurance can be priced to be less expensive for responsible gun owners than for irresponsible ones.   

In technical jargon, the dilemma with gun (or automobile) ownership is that each involves "externalities" -  the risk that the gun, or car, will be used to harm others.   In the absence of insurance, folks fail to consider the broader social costs of choices like buying a gun or car.   An insurance requirement is a practical and fair means for making potential owners of guns, or cars, take into account these potential social costs,  and (by skillful underwriting) encourage responsible behavior by reducing premiums for such behavior.   
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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #697 on: November 09, 2017, 06:47:27 pm »
Arguing with Jazz is like playing chess with a Pidgeon!  Have PHUNN!
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"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #698 on: November 09, 2017, 06:47:35 pm »
If you use a vehicle in the way it is intended, you don't hit anything with it. No need to carry insurance for that, only when it is used in a way in which it was not intended, and you run into things.

Accidents happen -with cars and with guns.  Additionally, guns carry a significant risk of being stolen.  Insurance encourages safe storage practices and prompt reporting of thefts.   
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Offline thackney

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Re: 'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas
« Reply #699 on: November 09, 2017, 06:52:01 pm »
Accidents happen -with cars and with guns.  Additionally, guns carry a significant risk of being stolen.  Insurance encourages safe storage practices and prompt reporting of thefts.   

Again, with the cars, how does having insurance or not having insurance change the way the car is stored?  How does it affect the rate of being stolen?
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