Democratic Rep. Blames Harvey Weinstein’s Victims For Being Too Slutty

[Bigun]

@Bigun

Or to need a job so you can feed yourself.

What does it change either way.  Somehow I don't think these women couldn't have found a way to feed themselves outside the bright lights of tinsel town.

[dfwgator]

@dfwgator

  I wonder if you would denigrate a man's career in that manner. 

If they are an actor, yes. 

[Silver Pines]

Don't these women have agents?  Why wouldn't they insist that their agent sit in with them, so they weren't alone with Weinstein?  I don't want to excuse Weinstein, that never was my intent.  But it just seems to me there were some things that could have been done to diffuse what you call the "power situation."

@dfwgator

I read an article today in which one of Weinstein's victims went into detail about her dealings with him.  He had a system down.  If a woman showed resistance to any attempts at familiarity, he would back off and take his time.  She would receive invitations to screenings or business meetings with her agent or whomever.  Professional, polite.  And it stayed that way for a while. 

Then, when she had been lulled into a false sense of security--- figuring she had overreacted, or imagined it, or blaming herself as women do---a casual, offhand invitation would be made to her alone, in a private place, just for a quick meeting. 

[Silver Pines]

I don't see anyone on this thread alleging that sexual assault or harassment by Weinstein or anyone else was in anyway ok, but when anyone is in a harassment (as opposed to forcible rape or assault) situation, they have a choice to walk away, despite the costs to their career.

There is so much consensual transactional sex in the entertainment industry (sexual favors for career advancement) that until that is considered unthinkable by *all* women, those women who won't engage in it are going to be at a disadvantage in their careers AND men in the industry are being conditioned to think that there's a good chance they'll get some in return for career advancement.  That doesn't make any of what Harvey Weinstein did right, that doesn't make any of the women who were attacked, harassed, or otherwise abused by him at fault, but we need to acknowledge that they were victimized primarily by Weinstein and secondarily by culture in the entertainment industry created by those women in the industry who believe "sex is one of the weapons in my arsenal for career advancement."

It's also a little disturbing that a few of the women who are coming out are using Weinstein's physical grotesqueness as one of their primary talking points (i.e. "he looked like Jabba the Hutt").  That reads dangerously like a primary objection to his behavior comes from how he looked, not because they are objecting to the behavior qua behavior. It reads like transactional sex would have been ok if he were better looking.  And that's a huge problem in and of itself.

Those who are saying on this thread that "maybe they wouldn't have gotten their career, but they DID have a choice" are also correct regarding those who were not physically assaulted by Weinstein (i.e. the requested massages, him taking off his clothes, etc). If he wasn't engaging in forcible action - and he seems not to have engaged in that in all of his sexually harassing interactions -- a lot of women were in a position where they did have a choice to walk away, to tell him off, to go to the police, to not put up with it.  Yeah, maybe it would have cost them their career, and that's why it is so dicey to report sexual harassment.  But they did have a choice, and a lot of them decided their shot at stardom was more important than (1) protecting other women from this behavior or (2) trying to get justice for themselves.

So yes, Harvey is the wrongdoer in a civil and criminal sense, and no one who was assaulted or harassed should be blamed for BEING assaulted or harassed, but blame can attach (1) to the things people who were harassed or assaulted chose to do (or not do) after the fact, although that would require that we know their motives for staying silent (i.e. if it's trauma and fear, that's one thing; if it's "I decided my career was more important than reporting" then, yeah, part of the problem and is a blameworthy thing) and (2) to anyone who engages in transactional sex to further their career, because that creates a culture where it's expected.

@cammie

Yes, the women had a choice to walk away.  They didn't, and they are not at fault.  Not a bit.   The fault lies with the disgusting toad who abused them (I have no problem at all mocking his appearance).

You're wrong about Weinstein not using force.  He's been accused of rape by more than one woman.

[dfwgator]

@dfwgator

I love the way you keep calling their livelihoods "precious little careers."  I wonder if you would denigrate a man's career in that manner.  Or if you'd walk away so easily from a job you needed.
 

And by the way, indeed there is a gay casting couch in Hollywood, too.  So yes, I would denigrate their career in that manner, too.

[Silver Pines]

I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man.  At least one of the actresses interviewed has specifically mentioned his lack of attractiveness, and didn't say he forced himself on her.  Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?

I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.

@Suppressed

No, I don't at all equate a proposition or an invitation with harassment --if that's where it ends.

[Bigun]

@cammie

Yes, the women had a choice to walk away.  They didn't, and they are not at fault.  Not a bit.   The fault lies with the tei toad who abused them (I have no problem at all mocking his appearance).

You're wrong about Weinstein not using force.  He's been accused of rape by more than one woman.

@CatherineofAragon

Now I'm going to ask you a question I asked early on on this thread and got no answer.  What should society do to protect women who refuse to walk away from such situations from slugs such as Weinstein?

[Silver Pines]

What does it change either way.  Somehow I don't think these women couldn't have found a way to feed themselves outside the bright lights of tinsel town.

@Bigun

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Not my place to judge.

I do know that acting pays more than food service work, which is what actors do until a tiny minority break out. 

I also know that it wouldn't be a snap decision for any of us to quit a lucrative job for one that isn't, so I'm not going to push that kind of simplistic false reasoning off on those women.

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon

Now I'm going to ask you a question I asked early on on this thread and got no answer.  What should society do to protect women who refuse to walk away from such situations from slugs such as Weinstein?

@Bigun

"Refuse to walk away"

You did receive a response, and it was a good one.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

"Refuse to walk away"

You did receive a response, and it was a good one.

@CatherineofAragon

No I didn't.   If i did I  missed it.  Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory?

[Silver Pines]

And by the way, indeed there is a gay casting couch in Hollywood, too.  So yes, I would denigrate their career in that manner, too.

@dfwgator

Okay.  How about this, though--- we save the denigration for the abuser instead of the victim. 

You never did respond when I asked you if I had a part in being sexually harassed.  Was it partially my fault for not quitting my job ?  If not, why was my situation different?

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon

No I didn't.   If i did I  missed it.  Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory?

@Bigun

You missed it, and I wasn't the one who posted it.

[dfwgator]

@dfwgator

Okay.  How about this, though--- we save the denigration for the abuser instead of the victim. 

You never did respond when I asked you if I had a part in being sexually harassed.  Was it partially my fault for not quitting my job ?  If not, why was my situation different?

I wasn't there, so I don't know the particular circumstances of your employer.  Now I know most companies do have procedures in place that allow you to report these kinds of incidents. 

And you know that Hollywood bears little resemblance to the rest of the world. 

[Bigun]

@Bigun

You missed it, and I wasn't the one who posted it.

@CatherineofAragon

Ok.  I missed it.  Since you remember it so well I ask again if you would be so kind as to refresh my memory?

[Silver Pines]

I wasn't there, so I don't know the particular circumstances of your employer.  Now I know most companies do have procedures in place that allow you to report these kinds of incidents. 

And you know that Hollywood bears little resemblance to the rest of the world.

@dfwgator

The principle is the same, though.  I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit.  So I must be partially to blame that it continued?

[dfwgator]

@dfwgator

The principle is the same, though.  I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit.  So I must be partially to blame that it continued?

So how then would you suggest stopping it?   If nobody reports it, how would anybody be able to take the necessary action.   I don't want to use the word "blame" here,   but seriously,  what do you want?

[Frank Cannon]

@dfwgator

The principle is the same, though.  I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit.  So I must be partially to blame that it continued?

I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.

[RoosGirl]

I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.

We know.  You like it when they fight back.

[Frank Cannon]

We know.  You like it when they fight back.

Well we know what happened that brief time you worked for me.....I had to sue you.

[RoosGirl]

Well we know what happened that brief time you worked for me.....I had to sue you.

Bitch please.

[Frank Cannon]

Please don't squeeze the Charmin.

[DB]

Hollywood is a cesspool for the most part. If someone wants to pursue a career in it it is highly unlikely they will rise to the top without swimming deeply in it. There are exceptions but they're rare and getting rarer.

[Silver Pines]

So how then would you suggest stopping it?   If nobody reports it, how would anybody be able to take the necessary action.   I don't want to use the word "blame" here,   but seriously,  what do you want?

@dfwgator

I didn't say I put up with it forever.  It came to an end because I got angry instead of intimidated at being cornered once too often and blocked from moving with the guy's body.  He stopped because he didn't want a certain part of his anatomy kicked up around his neck, which is what I told him would happen.  Or I would have tried my damndest to scratch out an eye or take some flesh off his face, had things become violent.  He wanted a quick, easy way to get off with a scared female who would keep quiet.  He didn't want trouble.

A woman I had confided in ended up telling my male boss what happened, and he was appalled.  He kept saying to me, "Why didn't you tell me?  I can't believe you didn't tell me."

Honestly I don't know why I didn't, because he was a great boss who was genuinely protective of women ---a quality that's mouthed by some conservative men.  I did have the feeling that HR might somehow get the idea I was a troublemaker, because the guy who was after me could talk his way out of anything.

Women tend to shift part of the blame onto themselves, even though it makes no sense to do so.  And it sure as hell doesn't help matters when people react with, "It takes two to tango", as though sexual harassment is a dinner date.  That's just stupid, no matter how you look at it.

See, I had a supportive boss I could have gone to, like I said, and I got angry at the harasser.  But other women's circumstances aren't the same.  If I had been very young, or if it had been my boss backing me against the wall, I don't know how I would have reacted.  Maybe the same, or maybe not.  At the time I needed that job.  Walking away from a job is easy only for armchair pontificators who are removed from the situation.

You really want to know how to help?  Stop doing what you're doing.  When a woman comes out with a story of being harassed, stop knee jerking that oh, well, it's partially her fault because she didn't speak up.  I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges.  I'm saying stop blaming women when some pig harasses them, because even though you don't want to use the word, that's what you're doing.

Remember how some of y'all reacted when Gretchen Carlson opened up about her harassment?  She was asked in an interview, "Why didn't you come forward sooner?"  Her reply---"Look at the response now.  That's why."

[Silver Pines]

I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.

@Frank Cannon

Lol, Frank, you're gonna rescind that offer when you read how it went.

[Bigun]

Hollywood is a cesspool for the most part. If someone wants to pursue a career in it it is highly unlikely they will rise to the top without swimming deeply in it. There are exceptions but they're rare and getting rarer.

Whoop! There it tis!

You dive into a cesspool you should expect to get some s&*% on you!