Author Topic: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services  (Read 21689 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #250 on: October 18, 2017, 09:51:19 pm »
.

If Jazz cared about us (or you)...... you would both be pro-life, and not liberals.


Sigh.  I'm not a liberal.  And I am pro-life.   

I'm pro-life because I believe abortion is morally wrong, and I want to see abortions made as rare as possible, consistent with the Constitution.   

If I were a liberal I wouldn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution.   Individual rights?  Who cares, you say - it's more important to criminalize abortion from the moment of conception.   But women DO have rights under the Constitution, and I can think of few more fundamental than the right of self-determination.  A woman should not be beholden to any man, and certainly not to the state's enforcement of religious/patriarchal morality.  The Supreme Court determined, over 40 years ago, that the Constitution protected a woman's right to decide whether to reproduce,  at least during the first trimester, and gave the states leeway to protect the fetus after that, especially in the third trimester.     

You may not like that decision,  but it's the law and the choice right is as much a part of the Constitution as the right to keep and bear arms.   Subject to regulation, but NOT subject to being denied.

Respect for the Constitution is most meaningful when the facts are tough.  It is difficult to defend Nazis marching through Skokie, but a true conservative will recognize why it is important to do so.   It is difficult to see pictures of fetuses kicking and moving,  and defend the right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce.   But it is necessary, especially IMO for a true conservative, to do so,  because if the state can deny a woman the ability to decide whether to have children,  it is shackling her to a life of servitude, and denying her something basic and fundamental to her dignity as a human being.

But abortion doesn't have to be the answer.   Contraceptives, properly used, can eliminate the need for most abortions because most are the result of unplanned pregnancies.   Moral education can help too - including the benefits of abstinence until marriage.   The most tragic cases are those where abortion is sought because the woman's partner has, after she finds herself pregnant, abandoned her.   And here, financial support to assist a woman to ride out a pregnancy and give the child up for adoption can save a life.

Lives are saved, one by one by one.  It's hard work, and so many pro-lifers have made a difference.  But it is folly to waste energy and resources trying to reverse and criminalize a woman's fundamental right to decide for herself how her life will unfold.   The abortion right is a Constitutional right, for reasons that ought to be apparent to any conservative who values individual liberty,  and there is no going back.       

 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:54:33 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #251 on: October 18, 2017, 09:55:15 pm »
@musiclady @goodwithagun

I am of the opinion that if you are not willing to pay the piper,you shouldn't be asking for the tune to be played. This is regardless of your gender. If a woman isn't willing to take a chance on getting impregnated by a man,maybe she shouldn't be taking a chance on a getting pregnant by him by not having sex with him?

If a man isn't willing to pay child support and otherwise support the child of any woman he impregnates,maybe he shouldn't be having sex with those women?

If either/both do decide to take the chance,they need to accept responsibility for the outcome,if any.

Correct.

But what the left is saying (and their representatives here on this thread), is that women aren't able to take responsibility for themselves.  That they need the state to protect them from their own willful choices because they can't do it for themselves.

In a sense, the left is treating women as they treated Native Americans...... like children.

If they truly want women to be empowered, as they claim, then they need to stop defending things that degrade, debase, and diminish personal responsibility with the women in this country.

But then again, the left always has things backwards, and this is no exception.

@sneakypete  @goodwithagun @Jazzhead
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:58:10 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #252 on: October 18, 2017, 10:04:32 pm »
Taxing the churches (and the mosques and the synagogues) will never happen - but in my perfect world they'd be taxed on all property and income not associated with their charitable and educational endeavors.   It might encourage more churches to focus on their charitable missions as opposed to proselytizing.   
You seem to be suggesting the purpose of a church is to focus on charity work rather than exposing people to God.

Could that be right?  If it is, you have no idea of the true purpose of a church.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #253 on: October 18, 2017, 10:06:38 pm »
You seem to be suggesting the purpose of a church is to focus on charity work rather than exposing people to God.

Could that be right?  If it is, you have no idea of the true purpose of a church.

This is a true statement.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #254 on: October 18, 2017, 11:19:04 pm »
@musiclady @goodwithagun

I am of the opinion that if you are not willing to pay the piper,you shouldn't be asking for the tune to be played. This is regardless of your gender. If a woman isn't willing to take a chance on getting impregnated by a man,maybe she shouldn't be taking a chance on a getting pregnant by him by not having sex with him?

If a man isn't willing to pay child support and otherwise support the child of any woman he impregnates,maybe he shouldn't be having sex with those women?

If either/both do decide to take the chance,they need to accept responsibility for the outcome,if any.

Exactly. Only a loser would support abortion. That's not the guy you take home to mom. If he can't help support his own actions he's a loser. Humans were made to bring life into this world and he's not even capable of doing what he's been genetically programmed to do?!
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #255 on: October 18, 2017, 11:19:30 pm »
A customer can't expect to be able to read the baker's mind.

Yet you pretend to do exactly that.


All the customer knows is that the baker advertises that he makes wedding cakes.

Still waiting for you to produce the baker's ad for same-sex wedding cakes.  Heck, I'm still waiting for you to produce any ad at all.  In the absence of that, and considering your past and current posting history, I can only conclude that you are lying about the ad.


The customer entered the shop seeking the advertised service.

The customer entered the shop seeking a cake for an event not sanctioned according to Colorado law.  In other words, the customer submitted their own definition of 'wedding' that contradicted both the baker's definition and the State of Colorado's definition of 'wedding'.  At no time did the baker ever advertise wedding cakes for anything other than a wedding between one man and one woman.  Never.  Not once.  Yet here you are once again giving a false narrative of what happened.  And you do so willfully, knowing that your account is false.


And that service was rejected for no valid reason at all (message, design),  but rather ONLY because of the baker's religious antipathy to gays.

See?  There you go lying again.  And you do it by pretending to read the mind of the baker.  (See above).  You also do it knowing full well that the baker offered any of his other products to the customer.  You know the truth, yet choose to lie.  Again and again and again, you lie.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 11:22:20 pm by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #256 on: October 18, 2017, 11:28:07 pm »
Taxing the churches (and the mosques and the synagogues) will never happen   

Why not?  What is stopping it?


- but in my perfect world they'd be taxed on all property and income not associated with their charitable and educational endeavors.   It might encourage more churches to focus on their charitable missions as opposed to proselytizing.   

How do you propose projecting your perfect world on the rest of society?  Should a law be passed removing that tax-exempt status?  Or do you prefer someone in a black robe declaring it just like you do with abortion and same-sex marriage?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #257 on: October 18, 2017, 11:38:52 pm »
No one's disputing what is the right thing to do.   But a woman must, as a matter of law,  be able to make that choice for herself.

As a matter of law?  What law?  Where is this law you keep referring to?  You have been asked this question for months on end now.  Yet you know full well that there is no law.  Nothing.  Nada.  Only the tyranny of the court.  Yet here you are once again lying about this being a matter of law.  It isn't. 
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #258 on: October 19, 2017, 12:03:17 am »
If I were a liberal I wouldn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution.

But that's just it.  You don't.  I seriously doubt you have even read the Constitution.


Individual rights?  Who cares, you say - it's more important to criminalize abortion from the moment of conception.

Uh, no.  It is more important to allow States to determine their own laws according to the will of the people of those States.  It is the very foundation of this Constitutional Republic.  And it is one that you soundly reject.


A woman should not be beholden to any man,

Do you uphold this same standard when it comes to child support?


and certainly not to the state's enforcement of religious/patriarchal morality.

Do you uphold this same standard when it comes to laws against murder, theft, etc?


The Supreme Court determined, over 40 years ago, that the Constitution protected a woman's right to decide whether to reproduce

But we're not talking about the right to reproduce here.  We are talking about the right to kill the product of that reproduction.


You may not like that decision,  but it's the law and the choice right is as much a part of the Constitution as the right to keep and bear arms.

Uh, no.  Not a law at all.  Not part of the Constitution either.


Respect for the Constitution is most meaningful when the facts are tough.

That's funny considering that you don't seem to care what the Constitution actually says.


because if the state can deny a woman the ability to decide whether to have children

No State is denying a woman that ability.  And not one person here is suggesting otherwise.  Yet here you are again giving a false account.   This isn't about the woman.  It is about the new singular reproduced life that is the result of a free conscientious and consequential action that a woman took.  There is something called 'accountability' that you pretend not to be aware of.


it is shackling her to a life of servitude, and denying her something basic and fundamental to her dignity as a human being.

Words fail me.


But abortion doesn't have to be the answer.   Contraceptives, properly used, can eliminate the need for most abortions because most are the result of unplanned pregnancies.

You really don't get it.  Abortion is being used as a contraceptive.


The most tragic cases are those where abortion is sought because the woman's partner has, after she finds herself pregnant, abandoned her.   And here, financial support to assist a woman to ride out a pregnancy and give the child up for adoption can save a life.

That's because the big secret here is that abortion is for men - not for women.  Most men have an expectation that if they knock some woman up, that she can go get an abortion.  So of course a man is going to leave if the woman doesn't exercise the very right that you champion.

Before Roe, that was the exception.  After Roe, it has become the rule.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline INVAR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #259 on: October 19, 2017, 12:13:31 am »
I can only conclude that you are lying about the ad. ... See?  There you go lying again.  And you do it by pretending to read the mind of the baker.  (See above).  You also do it knowing full well that the baker offered any of his other products to the customer.  You know the truth, yet choose to lie.  Again and again and again, you lie.

That is all he does is lie.

He lies about who and what he is and goes to great lengths to explain himself to those who are on to what he actually is based on his own words and fruits, depicting himself as an angel of light while spewing evil as a good.

Who and what he is is already clear to the majority here on this board.

We appreciate his presence here so we can hone our skills in using him for target practice.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #260 on: October 19, 2017, 12:20:50 am »
it is shackling her to a life of servitude, and denying her something basic and fundamental to her dignity as a human being.

 

This is the most hideous thing you've said so far, @Jazzhead.

You really don't respect life.  You don't understand what being a parent means.  You don't understand the incredible blessing of a new life.

I really, REALLY hope you never reproduce if you think your wife will be "shackled" with your child, and that being a mother is being in servitude.

I'm detecting some issues you have that cannot possibly be addressed here on this thread.

And your being a liberal is NOT your biggest problem.   There is a callousness in your soul here that I've never seen before.

And I am afraid for you......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #261 on: October 19, 2017, 12:36:34 am »
Correct.

But what the left is saying (and their representatives here on this thread), is that women aren't able to take responsibility for themselves.  That they need the state to protect them from their own willful choices because they can't do it for themselves.

In a sense, the left is treating women as they treated Native Americans...... like children.

If they truly want women to be empowered, as they claim, then they need to stop defending things that degrade, debase, and diminish personal responsibility with the women in this country.

But then again, the left always has things backwards, and this is no exception.

@sneakypete  @goodwithagun @Jazzhead

@musiclady

It has been my experience that the bible-thumping right is even more guilty of this than the radical left. This is one of the areas where they agree.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #262 on: October 19, 2017, 12:57:44 am »
This is the most hideous thing you've said so far, @Jazzhead.

You really don't respect life.  You don't understand what being a parent means.  You don't understand the incredible blessing of a new life.

I really, REALLY hope you never reproduce if you think your wife will be "shackled" with your child, and that being a mother is being in servitude.

I'm detecting some issues you have that cannot possibly be addressed here on this thread.

And your being a liberal is NOT your biggest problem.   There is a callousness in your soul here that I've never seen before.

And I am afraid for you......

I have the two greatest kids in the world, ML.   They're doing what they want to do in life,  and I couldn't be prouder of them.

I was damn lucky with my kids, and their amazing mom.   

Women who seek abortions aren't lucky as I was.   Their partner may have abandoned them.   Like Hoodat suggests,  their partner may be pressuring them to "wash it away, as if it isn't real" (in the words of the best anti-abortion song I've ever heard, by Graham Parker. )

I share your concern for the unborn.   But walk a mile in someone else's shoes.  Desperation is not a reason to lock up a woman for murder.   The need is for compassion,  not a regime that forces women into back alleys.   

The choice is the woman's.  Period.   It is up to those who defend life to help her make the right choice, and give her the support to do so.   
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:58:57 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #263 on: October 19, 2017, 01:00:23 am »
Exactly. Only a loser would support abortion. That's not the guy you take home to mom. If he can't help support his own actions he's a loser. Humans were made to bring life into this world and he's not even capable of doing what he's been genetically programmed to do?!

@goodwithagun

I'm going to step this discussion up a few steps with the statement that women should be the sole decision makers on having an abortion or not when they reach the point where they can get pregnant by themselves. If the father of the future child wants that baby and is willing to sign legal papers that frees her from any obligations AS WELL AS TO ANY DOMINION OVER the child once it is born,she should be,as a matter of law,REQUIRED to carry the child to term or face prison time for causing an unlawful death of some sort.

Everybody wants to talk about the rights of a woman,but what about the  rights of the man that impregnated her?
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #264 on: October 19, 2017, 01:25:20 am »
I have the two greatest kids in the world, ML.   They're doing what they want to do in life,  and I couldn't be prouder of them.

I was damn lucky with my kids, and their amazing mom.   

Women who seek abortions aren't lucky as I was.   Their partner may have abandoned them.   Like Hoodat suggests,  their partner may be pressuring them to "wash it away, as if it isn't real" (in the words of the best anti-abortion song I've ever heard, by Graham Parker. )

I share your concern for the unborn.   But walk a mile in someone else's shoes.  Desperation is not a reason to lock up a woman for murder.   The need is for compassion,  not a regime that forces women into back alleys.   

The choice is the woman's.  Period.   It is up to those who defend life to help her make the right choice, and give her the support to do so.   

More abortions are performed for convenience than anything else.

But I do feel very sorry for the children of people (like you) who support abortion.   If they realize that their parents (their Moms AND their Dads) would have killed them because they didn't want them, what kind of fear does that create when they do wrong things and risk being "unwanted" as older kids.

Your arguments are ALL fallacious, and your tenacity in keeping to the lie you are desperately clinging to is frightening.

You are wrong.   Your excuses for murder are wrong.   Your pretense in caring about women is idiotic.  And your claiming to be pro-life while spending hours arguing on behalf of death almost bizarre.

Why don't you try to be honest for a change?  If I were your kid I'd be scared to death of you.  Because underneath your claims to be compassionate, you are clinging to evil.

Try facing the truth in Christ Jesus.  It will set you free.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #265 on: October 19, 2017, 10:45:21 am »
The Supreme Court determined, over 40 years ago, that the Constitution protected a woman's right to decide whether to reproduce,  at least during the first trimester, and gave the states leeway to protect the fetus after that, especially in the third trimester.     

You may not like that decision,  but it's the law and the choice right is as much a part of the Constitution as the right to keep and bear arms.   Subject to regulation, but NOT subject to being denied.

     
First off, No. The right to keep and bear arms is spelled out.

Now, maybe I missed something in one of the many times I have read the Constitution, so please point to the part that gives anyone the right to deprive a baby of life with neither charge, nor trial, nor conviction by a jury of their peers. I missed it, and I thought I was passably familiar with the Document and Amendments.

The right to reproduce or not is most simply exercised prior to coitus. In fact people decide to not reproduce daily, tens to thousands of times, whether any decision to at least go through the motions is followed up on and completed or not. Somehow, I envision you as one who has seen that look, that "Not if you were the last man on earth" expression of rejected prospective reproductive activity, but if you're hanging with liberal chicks, you're probably only getting that from the pear-shaped ones with flattop haircuts and dunlop's syndrome.
Most often, that decision is made prior (as in long prior) to any hint of physical activity, while communication is still in digital form (one sole digit, middle, extended, back of hand displayed with digit pointing upward) or its verbal equivalent, or perhaps a more courteous rejection.

No one acting within out laws has ever denied a woman her right to choose not to reproduce. Up to and even after the moment of penetration, the woman is (and remains) free to call a halt to such proceedings and send the fellow forth nursing his painfully azure appendages and wounded pride. It has ever been thus, and laws exist in our terribly sexist society to punish the wretch who fails to fully honor her demand that any further activity immediately cease, with prosecution and prison, or in some cases where a fellow becomes too tumescent to apply reason and restraint and desist on demand, even the death penalty, although that usually applies for those who impose themselves throughout the process.

So women have ever had the right to determine whether or not they reproduce, and in the fashion of Western Chivalry (as horribly decried as it may be by the vagina-hat wearing and vocal contingent who claim it "sexist"--which admittedly, it is), predicated on the protection of and esteem for those precious and wonderful human vessels who bring forth our sons and daughters and who make our lives heaven or hell or sometimes both, our culture has wholly acknowledged the right of a woman to choose within some social constrictions whether or not she wishes to, colloquially, make a baby, and with whom. Severe punishment awaits the man who refuses to abide by that choice.

So choice is not the issue, the question becomes one of timing.

The accepted time frame for making that choice has been until the moment of conception. The very last acceptable opt-out (AKA: "pull and pray") has been practiced, with limited success, since people figured out that storks and cabbages were only coincidentally involved and not essential to reproduction.
Many methods of achieving those ends have been invented, from the most basic to biochemical and mechanical means of preventing conception.

However, like all things, that option has a use-by date, a point where the second hand sweeps past the deadline, the DNA combine, the embryo implants, and reproduction is a fait acompli.

As Gene Wilder, in one of his best cinematic moments might have said, "Life! I have created life!", and indeed you have.

Now the question has changed. It is not one of whether to reproduce, but one of what to do about it.

Whether that result of all the hormone and pheronome-charged activity is a lovingly welcomed addition to an established family, an approaching awkward moment with her parents on the way to the altar, or will it end in a death so horrible we would decry the practice from those who are masters of public and horrible executions, but they won't even do to their enemies what that growing innocent has in store in its brief future.

Consider that. For the accused criminal, we appoint an attorney, we quail at depriving one of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, we provide for years of appeals to avoid the death penalty, and if all fails to produce a verdict of "not guilty" of one of those most heinous and evil crimes (including, in some instances the imposition of reproductive activity), only then do we, as humanely as possible, terminate the life of that person we have deemed by virtue of their horrible acts to be someone we don't even want loose in a prison population.
We still regard protections against the cruel or unusual termination of that convicted criminal's life.
 
We even make allowances for those not capable of or of expressing rational thought and refuse to convict them in such a way that they suffer the ultimate penalty for their ill deeds.

We would not consider mechanically shredding them.

We would not inject them with or subject them to chemicals which effectively burn them to death.

We would not pull them feet first through an orifice, millimeters from freedom and cut the base of their skulls open and suck out their brains.

Such acts would be considered by any civilized society far too cruel and unusual to be practiced as a mode of execution for people convicted of even the most horrible crimes, in fact would be considered among them and by any standard, inhuman.

By now, you may well see exactly where I am going with this.

That is the punishment reserved for those who have never had a chance to commit any crime, whose only 'evil' is their inconvenient presence.
 
The intentional destruction of those humans, (statistically speaking, half or whom are female) is demanded as a "right" by those whose very decision to reproduce brought them into existence. It is no longer a decision of whether or not to reproduce, that decision has been made, it is now a decision regarding the future of an existing life, one which has not had any opportunity to lie or steal or cause harm to any other person other than be the inconvenient by-product of their choice to reproduce.

For decades of the development of modern medicine, we grappled with the moral quandary of whether to  save the mother at the expense of the child in medical situations where the mother's life was endangered by the position of that developing child (ectopic and Fallopian pregnancies).
In some cases, acknowledging the demise of both if nothing was done, we grudgingly permitted the taking of that small life in order to save that of the mother. In other instances, the mother, herself, has opted to not take medical treatments which would have saved her life but cost the life of her baby, that her child might live even if she would not. Such is the measure of the love a mother can have for her child, sacrificing her very life for her progeny.

On the other hand, there are those who would go to any lengths to recant that decision to reproduce, by taking the life that grows within them.

Traditionally, we had legally forbidden such, we had even gone to great lengths to provide for the means to permit the inconvenient results of the illicit couplings of adults who had decided against social convention to reproduce to be born and be raised, and albeit bastardy was not granted the full keys to the castle in most cases, even royal bloodlines have their unsanctioned branches. There is even an heraldic device for such on coats of arms. Even for the more ordinary folks, the means to discreetly deliver and raise those children existed, often the result of churches putting their money where their mouths were and providing for them or the adoption services to ensure those children would lead lives where they were loved, or at least wanted.

It is only since five people in black robes decided that the "right to choose" whether to reproduce could be invoked after the fact, retroactively, opened the door to the question of where the cut-off date is for committing the murder of those who are inarguably innocent--a decision which opens other doors to darker places which are beyond the scope of this writing.

Oddly enough, despite all Western precedent, despite that such actions undertaken against prisoners of war or heinous admitted and convicted criminals, would be seen as war crimes or unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment, respectively, those justices decided in one of the worst decisions in the context of western jurisprudence that performing those acts on babies was just hunky-dory, and decreed that women had a right to slaughter their offspring.

It wasn't that such wasn't ever done in the past, under the threat of being found out and prosecuted or reviled by their peers, with that decision it became official policy.

How can a nation which decried the eugenics programs of totalitarian governments, reviled the evils of concentration camps and gulags for the punishment and extermination of everyone inconvenient in their society from political dissidents to actual criminals to children guilty only of being born to parents of whom the State did not approve, which pointed its moral finger at apartheid and intertribal genocide in Africa, consider itself a bastion of freedom and the moral light of a free world and yet sanction the practice of infanticide which has murdered more than any single political ideology or -ism in the past century, a century which fairly swam in human blood?

The Roe decision heralded the modern era of cognitive dissonance in this Republic, when those who are charged with the protection of the very Rights with which Our Creator endowed us, and which Rights we attempted to protect from just such Governmental edicts via the Constitution and Bill of Rights, hand down a decision so juxtaposed to the entire cultural fabric and moral fiber from which this Republic was made to sanction limitless murder of the most innocent among us, especially in a time when there are so many ways for a woman to decide not to reproduce before the fact.

One thing is certain, while a woman may invoke this retroactive 'right' to avoid the results of her decision to reproduce, there remains the fact that once that action is taken, that decision to end that life can't be reconsidered nor reversed. Some things just can't be undone.
Many, convinced by the charlatans who have decried that life as a 'lump of tissue', will bear the scars of their decision for the rest of their life. Some will find consolation in repentance of that decision and the love of a forgiving God, but all, misled by those who tout a 'right' crafted by five people in black robes, will suffer from their decision.
 How anyone who claims to stand for the 'rights of women' can countenance such an abortion of jurisprudence is beyond me, but such is life (and death) in the era of cognitive dissonance.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 10:48:53 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #266 on: October 19, 2017, 11:17:03 am »
Man can you write, @Smokin Joe:patriot:

All I know is there are a lot of ignorant people in the world. They can't see that sometimes the "things that set you free" enslave them the most.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #267 on: October 19, 2017, 12:15:56 pm »
An eloquent post, SJ.   The moral case against abortion needs to shouted from the rooftops.

But it still must be the woman's choice,  if only because who else is qualified to make it?   It's the woman's body, not the state's.  It's the woman's burden and responsibility, not the state's.  The father's usually way gone,  and the woman is alone in the world.   

Support her, persuade her to do the right thing.  Engage all your eloquence and passion.  Appeal to her intellect,  appeal to her emotions, appeal to her wallet.  Tell her that potential life in her belly that she may now resent can be the joy of her own life.   Tell her that nine months of burden is a small price to pay to give someone else the chance to be a parent.   

 But the state should have no role.   
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #268 on: October 19, 2017, 12:37:08 pm »
An eloquent post, SJ.   The moral case against abortion needs to shouted from the rooftops.

But it still must be the woman's choice,  if only because who else is qualified to make it?   It's the woman's body, not the state's.  It's the woman's burden and responsibility, not the state's.  The father's usually way gone,  and the woman is alone in the world.   

Support her, persuade her to do the right thing.  Engage all your eloquence and passion.  Appeal to her intellect,  appeal to her emotions, appeal to her wallet.  Tell her that potential life in her belly that she may now resent can be the joy of her own life.   Tell her that nine months of burden is a small price to pay to give someone else the chance to be a parent.   

 But the state should have no role.   

A women has many choices she can make.  ALL of them occur before there is another living human being growing inside her!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #269 on: October 19, 2017, 12:49:31 pm »
One thing is certain, while a woman may invoke this retroactive 'right' to avoid the results of her decision to reproduce, there remains the fact that once that action is taken, that decision to end that life can't be reconsidered nor reversed. Some things just can't be undone.
Many, convinced by the charlatans who have decried that life as a 'lump of tissue', will bear the scars of their decision for the rest of their life. Some will find consolation in repentance of that decision and the love of a forgiving God, but all, misled by those who tout a 'right' crafted by five people in black robes, will suffer from their decision.
 How anyone who claims to stand for the 'rights of women' can countenance such an abortion of jurisprudence is beyond me, but such is life (and death) in the era of cognitive dissonance.

A more astute, well-written and cogent indictment of Jazzhead's entire argument and premise, one can never read.

Bravo!  Well done sir!

And well articulated and irrefutable.

Unless one is governed by evil and talking points.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #270 on: October 19, 2017, 12:50:00 pm »
But the state should have no role.   

Funny how you say that yet at the same time you point to the state as your justification as to why a women should be allowed to murder an unborn baby.

It is the very "state" that you claim should have no role that created this "right" out of the ether a mere 45 years ago.

If "the state" should have no role...they shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #271 on: October 19, 2017, 12:57:02 pm »
But it still must be the woman's choice,  if only because who else is qualified to make it?   

No one - Including her. Thai's the point. The choice should not be.

Quote
It's the woman's body, not the state's. 

No. it's the CHILD's body, not the woman's. THE CHILD'S. It is the child who is torn asunder and destroyed.

Quote
It's the woman's burden and responsibility, not the state's. 

No, that is not true. the father shares that burden.

Quote
The father's usually way gone

And if he's not, what then? the child is quite literally 50% his.

Quote
and the woman is alone in the world.   

Which is why the bonds of marriage exist, and why for thousands of years, women saved themselves for that act. Your observations only exist through the very faulty prism of 'modern' culture, and will disappear when it meets it's predictable and primal end.  An end that should be prayed for.

God, the barbarity of it, that this conversation should even exist! The answer is so very apparent, and it would bring shame to those who are insulated from that answer, if they were capable of it, where defilement is made sacrosanct and marriage is made null.

Where the right to rut like an animal is a matter of course, and the right of a child to breathe his first breath is easily discarded.

shame.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #272 on: October 19, 2017, 01:07:12 pm »
Shaming isn't going to do much good, I'm afraid, roamer.    Religious values are well and good, but they cannot and must not be imposed by the State.

It's the woman's body, the woman's burden, the woman's choice.  Period.  Help her make the right one.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #273 on: October 19, 2017, 01:12:50 pm »
A more astute, well-written and cogent indictment of Jazzhead's entire argument and premise, one can never read.

Bravo!  Well done sir!

And well articulated and irrefutable.

Unless one is governed by evil and talking points.

Except we all want the same thing - to reduce the number of abortions.   Yes, I want to do it consistent with the Constitution and its guarantee of individual liberty protected from the coercion of the state.   But the bottom line is that the triad of contraception, moral persuasion and financial support  is simply more effective than coercion.

Let's try what works,  and forget about the windmill-tilting.   There's no going back to the days of the back alley.     
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Life Begins at Conception, Says Department of Health and Human Services
« Reply #274 on: October 19, 2017, 01:21:17 pm »
Shaming isn't going to do much good, I'm afraid, roamer.    Religious values are well and good, but they cannot and must not be imposed by the State.

It's the woman's body, the woman's burden, the woman's choice.  Period.  Help her make the right one.
Cannot and must not be imposed by the State?
Give me an example of even one law which does not impose a moral boundary found in religion.

Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor (Perjury).
Thou shalt not Murder (including two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman).
Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother (unruly child).
Thou shalt keep the Lord's day holy. (Blue Laws)

Our entire legal system is rife with laws which have their basis in, or are, religious values. Why do you make the exception the taking of the life of innocents?

Your argument fails.

A law, making abortion illegal certainly helps a woman make the right choice, it makes the practice of performing abortions socially unacceptable, as was the practice of getting one. People will not choose to do something so readily if they cannot obtain it. The law was helping women make the right choice, until the State stepped in in the form of five people, each of which can bask in the blood of over ten million innocents.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis