Author Topic: America’s Worst World War II Fighter Was the Star of the Soviet Air Force  (Read 2915 times)

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Offline DemolitionMan

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Sebastien Roblin


The P-39 Airacobra may be the least loved American fighter plane of World War II, deemed inadequate by military planners at the outset of hostilities and written off as nearly useless by many historians. Certainly, the P-39 could not match the high-altitude performance of classic American warbirds such as the dapper and agile P-51 Mustang, nor the hard-charging, hard-hitting P-47 Thunderbolt.

And yet it was pilots of the Airacobra, not the Thunderbolt or Mustang, that achieved the highest scores of any aviators flying an American war plane during World War II. That this fact is not better known maybe because those Airacobra pilots flew with red Soviet stars on their wings.

Founded in 1935, the Bell Aircraft Corporation was known for unconventional designs such as the Airacuda bomber-destroyer which would have been at home on the cover of a science fiction magazine. In 1939, Bell approached the designs of its prototype XP-39 single-engine interceptor from a revolutionary perspective: instead of designing guns to fit the airplane, Bell designed a plane to fit around its gun — an enormous Oldsmobile T9 37-millimeter automatic cannon shooting throw the propeller hub.

This had a caliber commonly found on early World War II tank guns. It would only take a single direct hit to down an enemy airplane, and the P-39 also carried two additional .50-caliber machine guns in the nose and four .30-caliber weapons in the wings for a good measure.

https://warisboring.com/americas-worst-world-war-ii-fighter-was-the-star-of-the-soviet-air-force/
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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Good article, thanks! It seems planes designed around guns do better at CAS and low level work, but the Soviets were fighting at low levels on the Eastern Front, so it worked for them!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:31:59 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Good article, thanks! It seems planes designed around guns do better at CAS and low level work, but the Soviets were fighting at low levels on the Eastern Front, so it worked for them!
It quickly changed the dynamics of air supremacy on the Eastern Front from the Luftwaffe to the P-39s. Five of the aces were from P-39 squadrons on the Eastern Front
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 08:54:32 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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It quickly changed the dynamics of air supremacy on the Eastern Front from the Luftwaffe to the P-39s. Five of the aces were from P-39 squadrons on the Eastern Front
Sometimes application is more important than attributes. It worked for the Eastern Front, because the mission was different.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Sometimes application is more important than attributes. It worked for the Eastern Front, because the mission was different.

At this point, Germany was losing the war. Stalingrad was the turning point and that is when the Soviet Air Force began to take mastery of the air. The Allies in the West was bombing cities in the day and night hitting factories. Many had to be hidden inside mountains.The Luftwaffe and the German Army was suffering under chronic fuel shortages, manpower. and natural resources was running low. The only hope was synthetic gasoline to fuel the machine but it was nothing like the real stuff.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:53:07 pm by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline DemolitionMan

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At this point, Germany was losing the war. Stalingrad was the turning point and that is when the Soviet Air Force began to take mastery of the air. The Allies in the West was bombing cities in the day and night hitting factories. Many had to be hidden inside mountains.The Luftwaffe and the German Army was suffering under chronic fuel shortages, manpower. and natural resources was running low. The only hope was synthetic gasoline to fuel the machine but it was nothing like the real stuff.

If Hitler would have waited several more years, then things might have turned out a little different
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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At this point, Germany was losing the war. Stalingrad was the turning point and that is when the Soviet Air Force began to take mastery of the air. The Allies in the West was bombing cities in the day and night hitting factories. Many had to be hidden inside mountains.The Luftwaffe was suffering under chronic fuel shortages and manpower. The only hope was synthetic gasoline but it was nothing like the real stuff.
The whole push toward Moscow was to take the heat off the southern force trying to seize the oilfields near Baku. Germany desperately needed oil (incidentally, one of the motivations of the Japanese southward thrust onto the Asian mainland as well--islands were the defensive shield).

Despite having the best aircraft production numbers (in spite of the bombing), Germany had neither the fuel nor the pilots to man the planes. Critical to the problem, aside from round the clock bombing was Hitler's determination to make the ME 262 into a bomber back in 1942/3. Had he left that decision to the Luftwaffe who would have used it as an air superiority fighter, the bombing campaign would have been stymied until the allies could compete, and they war might have gone differently.  In addition, jet fuel is closer to kerosene (a distillate and less difficult to produce than quality av gas), and using the jets would have taken the heat off the fuel problem somewhat as well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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The whole push toward Moscow was to take the heat off the southern force trying to seize the oilfields near Baku. Germany desperately needed oil (incidentally, one of the motivations of the Japanese southward thrust onto the Asian mainland as well--islands were the defensive shield).

Despite having the best aircraft production numbers (in spite of the bombing), Germany had neither the fuel nor the pilots to man the planes. Critical to the problem, aside from round the clock bombing was Hitler's determination to make the ME 262 into a bomber back in 1942/3. Had he left that decision to the Luftwaffe who would have used it as an air superiority fighter, the bombing campaign would have been stymied until the allies could compete, and they war might have gone differently.  In addition, jet fuel is closer to kerosene (a distillate and less difficult to produce than quality av gas), and using the jets would have taken the heat off the fuel problem somewhat as well.

Case Blue was a little different. You are correct that Hitler threw the 4th and 6th Panzer Army to the oilfields, yet he stripped some of the men and material from the 6th Army to take Stalingrad(Battlefield Stalingrad DVD). You are correct about making the ME 262 into a fighter a bomber but it lacked one thing it had to be overhauled every 30 hours. The turbo blades had to be constantly be repaired. They put AAA around ME-262 bases because it was a problem and to scare away Allied Fighters.The jet was exposed to fire by another aircraft when landing.All in all the P-51 Mustang was a far superior fighter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:12:27 pm by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline DemolitionMan

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Case Blue was a little different. You are correct that Hitler threw the 4th and 6th Panzer Army to the oilfields, yet he stripped some of the men and material from the 6th Army to take Stalingrad(Battlefield Stalingrad DVD). You are correct about making the ME 262 into a fighter a bomber but it lacked one thing it had to be overhauled every 30 hours. The turbo blades had to be constantly be repaired. They put AAA around ME-262 bases because it was a problem and to scare away Allied Fighters.The jet was exposed to fire by another aircraft when landing.All in all the P-51 Mustang was a far superior fighter

The ME-262 was a good "feel good" booster that came too late
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:15:30 pm by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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Case Blue was a little different. You are correct that Hitler threw the 4th and 6th Panzer Army to the oilfields, yet he stripped most of his some of the men and material from the 6th Army to take Stalingrad(Battlefield Stalingrad DVD). You are correct about making the ME 262 into a fighter a bomber but it lacked one thing it had to be overhauled every 30 hours. The turbo blades had to be constantly be repaired. The jet was exposed to fire by another aircraft when landing.All in all the P-51 Mustang was a far superior fighter
Yep, the Mustang was one of those beautiful pieces of engineering which epitomizes the genre. But it wasn't around yet when the ME262 had appeared, and the ME's would have had a year to dominate the skies. The MEs would have faced Hurricanes and Spitfires, for the most part, and not the best Marks of either.
I doubt the Germans would have continued to have engine problems, but likely would have modified them to last longer, but had the production been shifted toward the ME262 as a fighter, there might have been enough spares to put into a maintenance rotation and keep the pilots supplied with aircraft.

By the time they were using the ME 262 as a fighter, the pilots were lucky to last 30 hours. The lack of stand down periods for their best pilots meant that fatigue and other factors were likely as much a cause of attrition as Allied pilot's skill or aircraft. Poorly trained replacement pilots made for progressively easier cannon fodder for Allied and Eastern Front pilots.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Yep, the Mustang was one of those beautiful pieces of engineering which epitomizes the genre. But it wasn't around yet when the ME262 had appeared, and the ME's would have had a year to dominate the skies. The MEs would have faced Hurricanes and Spitfires, for the most part, and not the best Marks of either.
I doubt the Germans would have continued to have engine problems, but likely would have modified them to last longer, but had the production been shifted toward the ME262 as a fighter, there might have been enough spares to put into a maintenance rotation and keep the pilots supplied with aircraft.

By the time they were using the ME 262 as a fighter, the pilots were lucky to last 30 hours. The lack of stand down periods for their best pilots meant that fatigue and other factors were likely as much a cause of attrition as Allied pilot's skill or aircraft. Poorly trained replacement pilots made for progressively easier cannon fodder for Allied and Eastern Front pilots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarpwjiB7mY
The Me-262 and the P-51 Mustang met each other in combat.e. U.S. gun camera footage of an American fighter (most likely a P-51 Mustang) firing at a German Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. When the Me262 came in sight of the P-51 Mustang the Luftwaffe pilot had already jumped off from his plane. He survived. The piston engined Luftwaffe fighter at the end of the clp is definitely a Bf 109.A Me262 Shot down by  P-51 mustang over germany in spring 1945.


« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:35:08 pm by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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youtube.com/watch?v=sarpwjiB7mY

The Me-262 and the P-51 Mustang met each other in combat.e. U.S. gun camera footage of an American fighter (most likely a P-51 Mustang) firing at a German Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter.
Sure they did, but that was after the Luftwaffe finally got the go-ahead to use the ME 262 as a fighter.

The Me262 could have been used as a fighter as early as April of '44 when the first group went into service had that been what was emphasized instead of Hitler's idea of using the aircraft as a vengeance bomber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommando_Nowotny

The Mustangs of the Eighth AF had finished their growing pains under the RAF and engine changes, and the versions which would later be credited for shooting down the ME262s (usually if they had a flameout or were landing) did not appear in active service with the 8th for several months alter, in the winter of '44. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang

Had the effort been put forth, there is a chance that the ME 262s would have so seriously impacted daylight bombing that the strategy would have had to be abandoned due to attrition. There were raids which counted 50% casualties to flak and FW190/ME109 fighter operations already, and the ME 262 would have been even more damaging before fighter support reached the point where it went to the target.

While the eventual results might not have been different, the war in the air would likely have been.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Sure they did, but that was after the Luftwaffe finally got the go-ahead to use the ME 262 as a fighter.

The Me262 could have been used as a fighter as early as April of '44 when the first group went into service had that been what was emphasized instead of Hitler's idea of using the aircraft as a vengeance bomber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommando_Nowotny

The Mustangs of the Eighth AF had finished their growing pains under the RAF and engine changes, and the versions which would later be credited for shooting down the ME262s (usually if they had a flameout or were landing) did not appear in active service with the 8th for several months alter, in the winter of '44. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang



Had the effort been put forth, there is a chance that the ME 262s would have so seriously impacted daylight bombing that the strategy would have had to be abandoned due to attrition. There were raids which counted 50% casualties to flak and FW190/ME109 fighter operations already, and the ME 262 would have been even more damaging before fighter support reached the point where it went to the target.

While the eventual results might not have been different, the war in the air would likely have been.

I agree.If the ME-262 was fully operational we would have a German flag here.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:49:59 pm by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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I agree.If the ME-262 was fully operational we would have a German flag here.
Maybe not, but it would have been a replay of the Eindecker (Fokker) Scourge. Eventually the allies would have developed competing airpower, and an air superiority fighter, but the British Isles might have been hammered from the air in a twisted replay of the battle of Britain, and England may have been invaded, though perhaps without complete success.

It would have changed the shape of the war, and the great invasion might have come through the Med, rather than across the channel. Plenty of room for What Ifs, though I don't think we'd have quite made it to The Man in the High Castle. Iceland may have been the pivotal Atlantic base, and supplying Russia might have come through Kamchatka or across polar ice. It could have been a very different war, and much longer as well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Maybe not, but it would have been a replay of the Eindecker (Fokker) Scourge. Eventually the allies would have developed competing airpower, and an air superiority fighter, but the British Isles might have been hammered from the air in a twisted replay of the battle of Britain, and England may have been invaded, though perhaps without complete success.

It would have changed the shape of the war, and the great invasion might have come through the Med, rather than across the channel. Plenty of room for What Ifs, though I don't think we'd have quite made it to The Man in the High Castle. Iceland may have been the pivotal Atlantic base, and supplying Russia might have come through Kamchatka or across polar ice. It could have been a very different war, and much longer as well.

We would never know until the war dragged on until 1946 right with new German technology come online?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 03:13:28 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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We would never know until the war dragged on until 1946 right with new German technology come online?
One thing we have left out: the Manhattan Project actually got its start in 1939, and by October 1941 (almost two months before Pearl Harbor, the US was committed to exploring the use of the Atom, a branch of research which gained in importance and effort shortly afterward. Had we got the bomb first, which might or might not have happened, chances are that we would have still won, but different towns might have felt the blast.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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One thing we have left out: the Manhattan Project actually got its start in 1939, and by October 1941 (almost two months before Pearl Harbor, the US was committed to exploring the use of the Atom, a branch of research which gained in importance and effort shortly afterward. Had we got the bomb first, which might or might not have happened, chances are that we would have still won, but different towns might have felt the blast.


This boat was special.U-234 returned to the Germaniawerft yard at Kiel on 5 September 1944, to be refitted as a transport. Apart from minor work, she had a snorkel added and 12 of her 30 mineshafts were fitted with special cargo containers the same diameter as the shafts and held in place by the mine release mechanisms. In addition, her keel was loaded with cargo, thought to be optical-grade glass and mercury, and her four upper-deck torpedo storage compartments (two on each side) were also occupied by cargo containers.[3]

Cargo[edit]
The cargo to be carried was determined by a special commission, the Marine Sonderdienst Ausland, established towards the end of 1944, at which time the submarine's officers were informed that they were to make a special voyage to Japan. When loading was completed, the submarine's officers estimated that they were carrying 240 tons of cargo plus sufficient diesel fuel and provisions for a six- to nine-month voyage.[3]

The cargo included technical drawings, examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, a Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb and what was later listed on the US Unloading Manifest as 550 kg (1,210 lb) of uranium oxide. In the 1997 book Hirschfeld, Wolfgang Hirschfeld reported that he saw about 50 lead cubes with 23 centimetres (9.1 in) sides, and "U-235" painted on each, loaded into the boat's cylindrical mine shafts. According to cable messages sent from the dockyard, these containers held "U-powder".[4][5]

When the cargo was loaded, U-234 carried out additional trials near Kiel, then returned to the northern German city where her passengers came aboard.

This means to me that Germany had a very active atomic bomb program if they were producing Uranium Oxide if they were carrying 1000 pounds of the stuff. They were carrying one ton of Uranium Oxide on board.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=4048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 09:26:36 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

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This boat was special.U-234 returned to the Germaniawerft yard at Kiel on 5 September 1944, to be refitted as a transport. Apart from minor work, she had a snorkel added and 12 of her 30 mineshafts were fitted with special cargo containers the same diameter as the shafts and held in place by the mine release mechanisms. In addition, her keel was loaded with cargo, thought to be optical-grade glass and mercury, and her four upper-deck torpedo storage compartments (two on each side) were also occupied by cargo containers.[3]

Cargo[edit]
The cargo to be carried was determined by a special commission, the Marine Sonderdienst Ausland, established towards the end of 1944, at which time the submarine's officers were informed that they were to make a special voyage to Japan. When loading was completed, the submarine's officers estimated that they were carrying 240 tons of cargo plus sufficient diesel fuel and provisions for a six- to nine-month voyage.[3]

The cargo included technical drawings, examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, a Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb and what was later listed on the US Unloading Manifest as 550 kg (1,210 lb) of uranium oxide. In the 1997 book Hirschfeld, Wolfgang Hirschfeld reported that he saw about 50 lead cubes with 23 centimetres (9.1 in) sides, and "U-235" painted on each, loaded into the boat's cylindrical mine shafts. According to cable messages sent from the dockyard, these containers held "U-powder".[4][5]

When the cargo was loaded, U-234 carried out additional trials near Kiel, then returned to the northern German city where her passengers came aboard.

This means to me that Germany had a very active atomic bomb program if they were producing Uranium Oxide if they were carrying 1000 pounds of the stuff. They were carrying one ton of Uranium Oxide on board.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=4048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234

One ton of natural uranium can produce more than 40 million kilowatt-hours of electricity. This is equivalent to burning 16,000 tons of coal or 80,000 barrels of oil. It has a yellow coloring to it.During World War II, "Preparation 38" was the codename for uranium oxide used by German scientists.The yellowcake then goes to a conversion plant, where chemical processes convert it to uranium hexafluoride. The uranium hexafluoride is heated to become a gas and loaded into cylinders. When it cools, it condenses into a solid.

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/guide/facts/
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 09:39:54 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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This boat was special.U-234 returned to the Germaniawerft yard at Kiel on 5 September 1944, to be refitted as a transport. Apart from minor work, she had a snorkel added and 12 of her 30 mineshafts were fitted with special cargo containers the same diameter as the shafts and held in place by the mine release mechanisms. In addition, her keel was loaded with cargo, thought to be optical-grade glass and mercury, and her four upper-deck torpedo storage compartments (two on each side) were also occupied by cargo containers.[3]

Cargo[edit]
The cargo to be carried was determined by a special commission, the Marine Sonderdienst Ausland, established towards the end of 1944, at which time the submarine's officers were informed that they were to make a special voyage to Japan. When loading was completed, the submarine's officers estimated that they were carrying 240 tons of cargo plus sufficient diesel fuel and provisions for a six- to nine-month voyage.[3]

The cargo included technical drawings, examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, a Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb and what was later listed on the US Unloading Manifest as 550 kg (1,210 lb) of uranium oxide. In the 1997 book Hirschfeld, Wolfgang Hirschfeld reported that he saw about 50 lead cubes with 23 centimetres (9.1 in) sides, and "U-235" painted on each, loaded into the boat's cylindrical mine shafts. According to cable messages sent from the dockyard, these containers held "U-powder".[4][5]

When the cargo was loaded, U-234 carried out additional trials near Kiel, then returned to the northern German city where her passengers came aboard.

This means to me that Germany had a very active atomic bomb program if they were producing Uranium Oxide if they were carrying 1000 pounds of the stuff. They were carrying one ton of Uranium Oxide on board.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=4048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234
Quote
The 1,200 pounds (540 kg) of uranium disappeared. It was most likely transferred to the Manhattan Project's Oak Ridge diffusion plant. The uranium oxide would have yielded approximately 7.7 pounds (3.5 kg) of U-235 after processing, around 20% of what would have been required to arm a contemporary fission weapon

It is difficult to say how much Allied Air tactical air superiority disrupted the German effort, but without it, D-day would have been a far more costly proposition, with the advance to the East rendered even more difficult, and logistics even tougher.

That may have taken the heat off the V-2 development, and the nuclear tipped ICBM might have been a German invention (which to great extent it was, anyway) rather than an American one.

The 'Man in the High Castle' scenario might have played out, with the Nazis nuking the American homeland and winning the war.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 09:39:16 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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It is difficult to say how much Allied Air tactical air superiority disrupted the German effort, but without it, D-day would have been a far more costly proposition, with the advance to the East rendered even more difficult, and logistics even tougher.

That may have taken the heat off the V-2 development, and the nuclear tipped ICBM might have been a German invention (which to great extent it was, anyway) rather than an American one.

The 'Man in the High Castle' scenario might have played out, with the Nazis nuking the American homeland and winning the war.

It still does not account how they were able to produce that much.I am not an expert but the yellowcake starts the process.The yellowcake then goes to a conversion plant, where chemical processes convert it to uranium hexafluoride. The uranium hexafluoride is heated to become a gas and loaded into cylinders. When it cools, it condenses into a solid. But they lacked that one step. If D-Day failed and the war dragged one more year and found a Amerika Bomber there would be no New York City.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:00:48 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline DemolitionMan

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It still does not account how they were able to produce that much.I am not an expert but the yellowcake starts the process.The yellowcake then goes to a conversion plant, where chemical processes convert it to uranium hexafluoride. The uranium hexafluoride is heated to become a gas and loaded into cylinders. When it cools, it condenses into a solid. But they lacked that one step. If D-Day failed and the war dragged one more year and found a Amerika Bomber there would be no New York City.

Hitler was a man who liked new ideas but he lacked and squandered the natural resources to do it. He knew very little of the military value of the projects. He is at fault for not developed advanced weapons. In the end he ran out of men,funds and time. The German scientists were free to pursue their talents in the United States and the Soviet Union were they had unlimited time,men and funds. These men were treated like rock stars in especially here in the United States.


Peenumunde Staff at Ft Bliss
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:27:15 am by DemolitionMan »
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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It still does not account how they were able to produce that much.I am not an expert but the yellowcake starts the process.The yellowcake then goes to a conversion plant, where chemical processes convert it to uranium hexafluoride. The uranium hexafluoride is heated to become a gas and loaded into cylinders. When it cools, it condenses into a solid. But they lacked that one step. If D-Day failed and the war dragged one more year there would be no New York City.
There were uranium mines in Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia before the war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_by_country  Keep in mind that uranium oxide is only part of the picture. Generally, less than 1% of that yellowcake (about .7%, or 7/1000 of that will be the fissionable U235, the remainder U238--the stable isotope). The load of yellowcake on the U-234 might have been 1/5 the amount needed to put together one bomb. Germany also had Uranium deposits, although the ones in East Germany were mined during the Cold War, I have no data on whether any deposits there were mined during WWII.

It seems like a lot, but Uranium is actually more common than silver, with notable deposits in Wyoming, New Mexico, Virginia, Colorado, Utah, and western Canada, just to name a few places. We even have it here in North Dakota, albeit more difficult to mine just for the Uranium.
Uranium oxide is converted to Uranium Hexafluoride, that Uranium Hexafluoride is heated to a gas and separated using the subtle differences in weight between U 235 and U238 (Gas centrifuges being the most common method). The U 235 is the fissionable and active isotope. The U235 content will have to be concentrated to 100X or more the natural (average) content to make a weapon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_uranium  Reactor grade uranium is much less concentrated than weapons grade, only 5-10 times more concentrated U235 than normally found in nature.

So, the process goes from ore (1% to 0.1% Uranium) to Yellowcake (Uranium Oxide, about 60% Uranium, but of that, only 0.7 %, roughly, the desirable U235 for fission) to Uranium Hexafluoride, in which form the U235 can be further concentrated to concentrations of 3-5% for reactor grade and up to 85% for weapons grade uranium. It is an involved, long, and energy consuming process.

'Spent' reactor fuel grade uranium can be reprocessed for the U235 that remains (viable vs 'spent' depends on the U235 concentration above 3% or so, it isn't all gone), and that, obviously, eliminates the early steps and energy investment to get the yellowcake from the ground. Yes, it is possible to concentrate the U235 in spent fuels to the point that it is weapons grade given enough investment and spent fuel. Plutonium can also be recovered.

Given the time and resources, it is entirely possible the Germans would have developed the bomb. Deposits in East Germany were mined extensively for Uranium during the Cold War, and remain the third largest producer of Uranium, behind only the US and Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_by_country Had Hitler not opened the Eastern Front, there is a solid chance he would have won the war. The non-aggression pact with Stalin may well have endured without Barbarossa and we might all speak differently.

Note, too, I haven't gone into Plutonium, which comprised the nuclear package in one of the bombs dropped on Japan. I met one of the discoverers as a young man (Glenn Seaborg--I had a different set of 'heroes' from most kids--mine included Nobel Prize winners). While the discovery was made in 1941, his paper was pulled and hidden when it was discovered that Pu239 could be used to make a bomb--in this case, the one that was dropped on Nagasaki, and he didn't get credit until 1946.https://www.livescience.com/39871-facts-about-plutonium.html His work in transuranium elements won him a (shared) Nobel Prize in 1951.

Plutonium only occurs in trace amounts in natural deposits, and is more a product of nuclear reactors,  produced by the neutron bombardment of Uranium. Around 20 tons are produced in ordinary reactors a year, and at one time 'breeder' reactors were seen as a potential source of nuclear fuel, making Pu for nuclear fuel out of more stable isotopes of uranium by neutron bombardment in the reactor, theoretically making more fuel than the reactor consumed. However, aside from radioactivity, Pu is toxic as all get-out, and like most transuranium elements, difficult to handle. So, like almost all transuranium elements, it has to be handled in specialized facilities.
Chances are that the Germans might have discovered Pu239 as well, given an active reactor program, but it is unknown how far they got along those lines, and the Allied bombing campaign certainly siphoned off resources which might have otherwise been dedicated to world conquest and the development of an atomic bomb. (Which comes full circle and gets back to the ME 262, air superiority, and the capability to shoot down so many bombers that daylight bombing would have been stopped, which it nearly was, anyway with the Me109 and FW190).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Hitler was a man who liked new ideas but he lacked and squandered the natural resources to do it. He knew very little of the military value of the projects. He is at fault for not developed advanced weapons. In the end he ran out of men,funds and time. The German scientists were free to pursue their talents in the United States and the Soviet Union were they had unlimited time,men and funds. These men were treated like rock stars in especially here in the United States.


Peenumunde Staff at Ft Bliss
Hitler was so consumed by hatred and narcissism that he failed (thankfully) to make the jump from concept to weapon, and was too much of a control freak to let others carry that ball. When paranoia and reprisal become the focus, the future goes out the window. One thing about genius. Given an environment where it is not only free to pursue the wild-eyed tangents it may take off on, but provided with an environment where it is encouraged to do so without fear of reprisal and the drudgery of having to pay the bills, and tremendous things can be accomplished. To do so requires the vision to make the leap from concept to application, and to foster that creativity without a gun to someone's head.
That is what may well have hampered the progress of programs in the Soviet Union (where there was the carrot of being a national hero, but always the stick of the gulag) and damaged the ability of Oriental regimes to foster the initiative and creativity needed to make the leaps needed to move forward. If that was the case in the latter instance, that appears to have been overcome to some extent, most notably in the most free of those cultures.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:08:52 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DemolitionMan

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Hitler was so consumed by hatred and narcissism that he failed (thankfully) to make the jump from concept to weapon, and was too much of a control freak to let others carry that ball. When paranoia and reprisal become the focus, the future goes out the window. One thing about genius. Given an environment where it is not only free to pursue the wild-eyed tangents it may take off on, but provided with an environment where it is encouraged to do so without fear of reprisal and the drudgery of having to pay the bills, and tremendous things can be accomplished. To do so requires the vision to make the leap from concept to application, and to foster that creativity without a gun to someone's head.
That is what may well have hampered the progress of programs in the Soviet Union (where there was the carrot of being a national hero, but always the stick of the gulag) and damaged the ability of Oriental regimes to foster the initiative and creativity needed to make the leaps needed to move forward. If that was the case in the latter instance, that appears to have been overcome to some extent, most notably in the most free of those cultures.

In other words no vision.
"Of Arms and Man I Sing"-The Aenid written by Virgil-Virgil commenced his epic story of Aeneas and the founding of Rome with the words: Arma virumque cano--"Of arms and man I sing.Aeneas receives full treatment in Roman mythology, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid, where he is an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He became the first true hero of Rome

Offline Smokin Joe

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  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis