Trump on Puerto Rico's debt: 'We're going to have to wipe that out'

[DiogenesLamp]

So here we go again, just like during the primaries and general, Trump promising pie in the sky with no clue on how to deliver or implement or what the unintended consequences might be.

That's how you see it?   I see it as a man stating the simple reality of the situation while everyone still wants to pretend that Puerto Rico is not a corrupt basket case from which no one is ever going to get paid any of the money owed.   


How do you see any money getting paid back by Puerto Rico?   

[DiogenesLamp]

@DiogenesLamp
Oh I think he understands very well how it works.   He's adopted the bankers definition of money and contracts and not the quaint version that most Americans have.

And so who is currently running American finance right now?  Americans or bankers?   


Reality speaks. 

[driftdiver]

Sounds like you are trying to give Bill Clinton a pass on his role in creating the mess.   Those bankers wouldn't have been issuing those loans but for Bill Clinton's government assuring them that the government would rescue them if the loans went bad. 


I saw "the Big Short".   It placed all the blame on business,  and virtually none of it on government,  where it actually belonged.

@DiogenesLamp


PUHLEEAZEEE, the banks and the government are both to blame.   The banks pay off the govt and the govt people happily accept it.   The difference between the bankers/govt and the average home buyer is the bankers knew exactly what they were doing.   They knew they were making bad loans and that the govt would buy it.

[driftdiver]

And so who is currently running American finance right now?  Americans or bankers?   


Reality speaks.

@DiogenesLamp
The bankers aka the fed.   

[DiogenesLamp]

@DiogenesLamp


PUHLEEAZEEE, the banks and the government are both to blame.   The banks pay off the govt and the govt people happily accept it.   The difference between the bankers/govt and the average home buyer is the bankers knew exactly what they were doing.   They knew they were making bad loans and that the govt would buy it.

It is a foregone conclusion that business will generally not let the morality of something get in the way of their making money.     Anyone who thinks that business will not take full advantage of government being stupid is naive. 


The problem is that government is stupid,  not that businesses are immoral.   Businesses have always been immoral when it comes to making money.  It's not a new thing or a surprise.   


The New things is government being so F***ing stupid (or more interested in electoral power than the best interests of the nation)  enough to wave this carrot in front of amoral business. 

[driftdiver]

It is a foregone conclusion that business will generally not let the morality of something get in the way of their making money.     Anyone who thinks that business will not take full advantage of government being stupid is naive. 


The problem is that government is stupid,  not that businesses are immoral.   Businesses have always been immoral when it comes to making money.  It's not a new thing or a surprise.   


The New things is government being so F***ing stupid (or more interested in electoral power than the best interests of the nation)  enough to wave this carrot in front of amoral business.

Not all businesses are amoral.   I've worked with many that would do the right thing.

Banks certainly won't though.  Heck they wont even honor their contracts if they can get out of them or think the vendor wont sue.

[DiogenesLamp]

@DiogenesLamp
The bankers aka the fed.   

"It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their selfish purposes. Distinctions in society will always exist under every just government. Equality of talents, of education, or of wealth cannot be produced by human institutions. In the full enjoyment of the gifts of Heaven and the fruits of superior industry, economy, and virtue, every man is equally entitled to protection by law; but when the laws undertake to add to these natural and just advantages artificial distinctions, to grant titles, gratuities, and exclusive privileges, to make the rich richer and the potent more powerful, the humble members of society--the farmers, mechanics, and laborers--who have neither the time nor the means of securing like favors to themselves, have a right to complain of the injustice of their government. There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing."



https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/jackson-lincoln/resources/political-battles-jacksonian-era-bank-war

[DiogenesLamp]

Not all businesses are amoral.   I've worked with many that would do the right thing.

Were they huge,  and or located in New York? 

Banks certainly won't though.  Heck they wont even honor their contracts if they can get out of them or think the vendor wont sue.

And it has always been thus.   Anyone familiar with banks could have predicted what was going to happen.  In that movie "The Big Short",  several people did. 

[driftdiver]

Were they huge,  and or located in New York? 


And it has always been thus.   Anyone familiar with banks could have predicted what was going to happen.  In that movie "The Big Short",  several people did.

@DiogenesLamp
With huge businesses it depends on the people you're working with.   I've worked with both in and out of NYC / NJ.

Large govt contracting companies are almost as bad as banks.  Can't mention any names.

[DiogenesLamp]

@DiogenesLamp
With huge businesses it depends on the people you're working with.   I've worked with both in and out of NYC / NJ.

Large govt contracting companies are almost as bad as banks.  Can't mention any names.

Exactly my point.   The bigger businesses get,  the less likely they are to be steered by moral concerns.   

Smaller businesses,  controlled by a man or a family or some such,  are much more willing to do the right thing for moral reasons,  even if it costs them some bottom line.

[DiogenesLamp]

Fannie Mae charged taxpayers $250,000 for a chandelier


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/04/fannie-mae-charged-taxpayers-250000-for-chandelier.html

[Night Hides Not]

Not all businesses are amoral.   I've worked with many that would do the right thing.

Banks certainly won't though.  Heck they wont even honor their contracts if they can get out of them or think the vendor wont sue.

Based on my nearly 5 years experience at the FDIC (during the bank crisis), I strongly agree with what you say about banks. You wouldn't believe some of the loans, commercial and personal, that were made.

Then again, you probably would.

[Night Hides Not]

Fannie Mae charged taxpayers $250,000 for a chandelier


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/04/fannie-mae-charged-taxpayers-250000-for-chandelier.html

Oh heck, that's peanuts. Take a look at Lee Farkas, Colonial Bank, and Taylor Bean Whitaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor,_Bean_%26_Whitaker

[RoosGirl]

That's how you see it?   I see it as a man stating the simple reality of the situation while everyone still wants to pretend that Puerto Rico is not a corrupt basket case from which no one is ever going to get paid any of the money owed.   


How do you see any money getting paid back by Puerto Rico?

I think it's likely that was just spouting some nonsense without any clear way of implementing it, because it sounds good and Puerto Rico is a corrupt basket case from which no one is ever going to get paid any of the money owed.  The thing that should make everyone livid is that not only will the debt be "forgiven", they'll be given more that also will not be paid off to help them rebuild.  Besides that, it sounds like much of the debt isn't held by the US Govt and therefore isn't the US Govt's to forgive.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Exactly my point.   The bigger businesses get,  the less likely they are to be steered by moral concerns.   

Smaller businesses,  controlled by a man or a family or some such,  are much more willing to do the right thing for moral reasons,  even if it costs them some bottom line.

I believe that is a keen observation, and applies most particularly to government entities, ie - the smaller the better on morality.

[Fishrrman]

Trump on Puerto Rico's debt: 'We're going to have to wipe that out'

Although I wish it weren't true, he's probably right in his assessment.

There's no way that island can ever pay what it owes.
Just not possible.

But if that's the case... who will lend money or buy its debt again?

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

But if that's the case... who will lend money or buy its debt again?

The same people buying Argentina's 100 year bonds (that would be the same Argentina that has defaulted like five times in the last 100 years).

[Chosen Daughter]

Oh sure.  Let's "wipe it out".  Poof.  Neat trick.  Let's wipe out all debt.  Debt is bad.  Debt is evil.  Debt is stupid.  Which is why Trump had so much debt in his businesses and why Trump must believe that declaring bankruptcy is cleansing.

Hey... while we're at it (wiping out Puerto Rico's debt)....let's wipe out America's $20 TRILLION+ debt too (why not?).  I mean... it's not like 'this' congress hasn't accomplished sooo much ""good for America, make America grate again"" stuff already.  Right?

Only one question, Donald.

How?

You can't even repeal the worst "piece" of legislation EVER passed by congress.  How the hell do you plan to 'wipe out' anything.... except maybe your credibility?

How?  Raise taxes on the lower and middle class.  Sell $ 800.00 month health insurance plans.  $1000.00 for seniors.

Or come for our Social Security.  Strap our children with it for the rest of their lives.

[Concerned]

"Puerto Rican bonds took a huge hit on Wednesday following President Donald Trump's comments on the island's massive debt.

The island's general obligation bonds, which yield 8 percent, dropped to just 37 cents on the dollar. Just last month, the bonds were trading at around 56 cents to the dollar."


I wonder if this was his plan or just an impulsive President speaking off the cuff?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/04/puerto-rico-bonds-plunge-to-34-cents-on-dollar-after-trump-pledge-to-wipe-out-debt.html

[DiogenesLamp]

I think it's likely that was just spouting some nonsense without any clear way of implementing it, because it sounds good and Puerto Rico is a corrupt basket case from which no one is ever going to get paid any of the money owed.  The thing that should make everyone livid is that not only will the debt be "forgiven", they'll be given more that also will not be paid off to help them rebuild.  Besides that, it sounds like much of the debt isn't held by the US Govt and therefore isn't the US Govt's to forgive.

Well,  I think you are right about this on all counts.