Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay

[roamer_1]

But this is an age-old theological debate.  My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system.  Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real).  Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence?  I don't know.

Your observations are taken from behind enemy lines... from within the curse.
We sold our right,  and the current holder exercises our lease on this world.
The good news is that the price to buy the lease out was paid 2k years ago,
and the Owner of the place is fixin to evict.

[musiclady]

@Mom MD
@musiclady

Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that.  There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it.  It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.

But this is an age-old theological debate.  My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system.  Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real).  Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence?  I don't know.

This is not really the place for this discussion, but I will just add that, it was because of the free choice of a created being to rebel against God that the "system" as you call it, was set up.  There would be no need for punishment if we were all obedient, but because we all choose not to obey, there is a "system" of punishment (with which you disagree).

That is the reason that the sacrifice of God's Son was necessary (as @Mom MD stated), and through Christ's sacrifice we ALL have the opportunity to accept the 'way out' of the system........ God's Grace.

I would caution again your putting finite human reasoning above an Almighty, Omniscient God.   Neuroscience and Psychology, and even criminal justice, are just attempts to understand what God has designed.......... whether we accept that or not.

Modified to ping @Suppressed

[Mom MD]

@Mom MD
@musiclady

Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that.  There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it.  It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.

But this is an age-old theological debate.  My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system.  Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real).  Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence?  I don't know.

I hope you find the answers you are seeking some day and the Peace that comes with knowing

[Suppressed]

I have no trouble worshiping a God who allows people to choose,  and who has since he created them.
If you are given a choice to get on a boat and leave an island on fire, but decide not to board, whose fault is that? The boat's? The Island's? Or yours?

The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real.  Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."

The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.

The reason I said it is left to a higher Judge is just the concept that there may have been some factor such as a brain tumor rather than some intellectual, spiritual, or other decision on his part. Obviously we don't know what motivated this guy, we don't know him even superficially, much less what was going on inside his brain.
Don't we give those who are non compos mentis a reprieve from their guilt because they are not in their right mind? I would think that our Creator would make allowances for such malfunctions.

I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me.  There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however. 

But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances?  And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.

[Hoodat]

The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.

It's called 'Free Will'.

I got news for you.  God is not a micro-manager.

[musiclady]

The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real.  Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."

The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.

I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me.  There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however. 

But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances?  And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.

Just one (very important) point................... it's not a "guess."

We've been given all the information we need in great detail.  No guesswork is required.

You're still imposing your own seriously limited reasoning on an Infinite plan.

[Mom MD]

The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real.  Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."

The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.

I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me.  There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however. 

But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances?  And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.

When someone gives you an exit out of a burning building it is not the best course of action to complain you don’t like that particular door.   I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things   I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore.  May you be blessed in your search

[Suppressed]

I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things   I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore.  May you be blessed in your search

Agreed, and thank you.

[Sanguine]

When someone gives you an exit out of a burning building it is not the best course of action to complain you don’t like that particular door.   I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things   I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore.  May you be blessed in your search

And, to add to that excellent statement, I am so glad to see you persist in your search. 

[DB]

I hope you find the answers you are seeking some day and the Peace that comes with knowing

We are either robots executing a program or we have free will.

Robots executing a program removes all value of our lives. There's no meaning to love, hate, achievement, discovery, sacrifice for others, etc. without free will.

So that's what it comes down to. Either we have free will and suffer the consequences both good and bad or we have nothing.

[TomSea]

They've been left scratching their heads over two mysteries involving a mobile found charger and a hotel key card.

The charger doesn't match any of the phones belonging to the 64-year-old gunman, who checked into the hotel three days before Sunday night's rampage.

And hotel garage records show that one of his key cards was used to enter his suite after his car had left the garage for a period of time, sources have told NBC News.

Continued at: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hotel-key-card-phone-charger-11301191

The part about parking, seems like it won't be easy to explain away.  Sure, he could have gone through the lobby and parked the car outside or something.

[DB]

The part about parking, seems like it won't be easy to explain away.  Sure, he could have gone through the lobby and parked the car outside or something.

That's interesting.

[Bigun]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

[DB]

It's difficult for me to respect/worship a god that would allow such permanent torment.

If it was caused by a tumor, is he awarded a Get Out of Hell Free pass?  What about influences of childhood?

We are not his judge.

[Smokin Joe]

I would caution again your putting finite human reasoning above an Almighty, Omniscient God.   Neuroscience and Psychology, and even criminal justice, are just attempts to understand what God has designed.......... whether we accept that or not.

Modified to ping @Suppressed

ALL science is an attempt to understand and explain His creation.

It is when we lose track of that our hubris becomes our undoing.

[mrclose]

We are either robots executing a program or we have free will.

Robots executing a program removes all value of our lives. There's no meaning to love, hate, achievement, discovery, sacrifice for others, etc. without free will.

So that's what it comes down to. Either we have free will and suffer the consequences both good and bad or we have nothing.

Or puppets with God being the puppeteer.

[musiclady]

ALL science is an attempt to understand and explain His creation.

It is when we lose track of that our hubris becomes our undoing.

Exactly.

And in this day and age, the hubris is extreme.

[Silver Pines]

Just one (very important) point................... it's not a "guess."

We've been given all the information we need in great detail.  No guesswork is required.

You're still imposing your own seriously limited reasoning on an Infinite plan.

@musiclady
@Suppressed

Hell was created for Satan and his lackeys, not for us.  The Bible explicitly says that He doesn't want any of us to go there.  But we can't enter into the presence of a completely holy God bearing even a trace of sin.  The sacrifice to expiate that sin was given 2000 years ago.  We can accept it, or not. We bear the responsibility for the consequences of that choice.

And that's all I'm saying.   

[musiclady]

@musiclady
@Suppressed

Hell was created for Satan and his lackeys, not for us.  The Bible explicitly says that He doesn't want any of us to go there.  But we can't enter into the presence of a completely holy God bearing even a trace of sin.  The sacrifice to expiate that sin was given 2000 years ago.  We can accept it, or not. We bear the responsibility for the consequences of that choice.

And that's all I'm saying.   

You said it well, Catherine!

[Fishrrman]

TomSea wrote:
"Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."

Wait a minute.
The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself.
Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.

Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.

[driftdiver]

TomSea wrote:
"Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."

Wait a minute.
The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself.
Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.

Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.

@Fishrrman

Apparently the cameras inside weren't recording.  They were live streaming.

[Silver Pines]

You said it well, Catherine!

@musiclady

Thank you!

[Mod1]

Can we get back to talking about the lunatic in Vegas?  The original topic?  We gave the spiritual aspect of this a good airing out....

Thanks,
M1

[Smokin Joe]

TomSea wrote:
"Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."

Wait a minute.
The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself.
Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.

Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.

Other things:

From : https://constitution.com/something-missing-las-vegas-shooters-room-authorities-spooked/

    “Mass killer Stephen Paddock bought a high-powered hunting rifle just hours before he arrived in Las Vegas on his mission of death, DailyMail.com can reveal.

    “But bizarrely the rifle wasn’t one of the 23 weapon haul found by police in his sniper’s nest hotel suite.

    “Paddock paid $600 for a Ruger American .308 bolt-action rifle with an 18-inch barrel and four round capacity from Guns & Guitars in his hometown of Mesquite.

    “He then calmly drove 80 miles to check in at the Mandalay Bay hotel on the Vegas Strip from where he rained bullets down on the Route 91 Harvest music festival killing 59 people and injuring a further 537.

    “A gunsmith at the store revealed Paddock was ‘calm and normal’ when he bought the weapon at around 3pm on September 28.”

and from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4949534/Stephen-Paddock-bought-mystery-rifle-going-Vegas.html....(just to end some speculation)

'The guy was just a regular gun enthusiast, there was nothing special about him,' Skipper said.

'He's not religious, he never talked about religion, he never talked about politics.'

The worker said Paddock's girlfriend, Marilou Danley, who police named a person of interest in the case, also came in to the shop once.

'The only time we saw Marilou, Stephen was in the store looking around, talking to Chris and I guess she was in the car and she opens the door and says, "Are you done?"

'And he says, "Yeah, I'll just be a second," that was the only time we saw her. He was totally pleasant to her, just said "I'll be a second, no problem."'

Which belies the 'abusive boyfriend' meme.

Skipper works at Guns and Guitars. From that same article:

He says Paddock bought just one of the guns that was found in his hotel suite from Guns & Guitars – a Sig Sauer 716.

The Swiss/German made rifle fires large-caliber 7.62mm rounds, and is a highly accurate weapon from the AR10 range of guns. These weapons usually sell for around $3,500.

Also, (same article)

'I know he liked country music so then I'm thinking he must have been after someone he knows, that was my first thought.

So that throws the music critic aspect out (unless he really didn't like the bands playing).

No one can control the ultimate use of an item once they sell it. That rifle might save a calf from coyotes, just punch paper, or be used to save a life by stopping a bad guy. Just like that big kitchen knife might carve turkey or ham at thanksgiving or be used to slash people on the subway. Unfortunately, people are attacking the merchants in this, too, as if they were prescient enough to somehow prevent that item from being used in a way we would all agree was just wrong.

[Fishrrman]

driftdiver wrote:
"Apparently the cameras inside weren't recording.  They were live streaming."

In that case, find out "where the stream went".
If it got onto the internet, it probably got recorded -somewhere-.
Where?