Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay

[ABX]

That's never going to matter or be good enough for some.  If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS.  Have some Excedrin nearby.  I know it gave me a headache.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3591832/posts

So he sold an airplane to a company that buys airplanes and just has to have DOD contracts, and... shock... the company that bought the plane still has it listed as an active registration...

Well that settles it.. Ancient Aliens did it.

Sheesh, talk about pulling a yuge conspiracy out of absolutely nothing.

[Smokin Joe]

Until we are told of the motive, we will just be reading our own beliefs into his motives.

Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.

I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd.  The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now,  really eager to get home.  I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink.  I never ever drink Champaign-  thank the stars I did!

Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood .   It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.

Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened.  Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began,  yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour.   They must have known he was already dead.  The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.

Why did he kill himself so early?  Because his dirty work was done.  The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point.  I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists.  The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector,  was to commit a terrorist act.  The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up.  He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives.  He may well have been apolitical like his brother says.   He was,  I think,  caught up in an inextricable situation,  did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price,  and then shot himself.

Well,  that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now.   We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable.  So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.

Well, for once, we have come to similar conclusions.
The camera in the room is the key bit of evidence, and the destination of the live feed (evidence the act had been committed).
This is the second terrorist act which made no sense, but had ties to the PI (Terry Nichols' wife, iirc, was from the PI, too.)


The other question is one of if this is proven to be the case, will that be revealed?
In the instance of the OK City bombing, the link to the Philippines was pretty much suppressed, especially in the MSM.

[edpc]

Headlines

Warren calls for action on gun violence: 'Thoughts & prayers are NOT enough'

Hillary Clinton: Our grief isn't enough, we must stand up to the NRA

Dem rep says he won't participate in moment of silence for Las Vegas victims

Dem senator: 'How many lives must be lost before we act?'

Obama: We are praying for victims of 'another senseless tragedy'


Bill Clinton: Las Vegas shooting 'should be unimaginable in America'


Dem rep: I hope Congress does 'more than stand in silence' after Las Vegas shooting

Get this new shameless, sick angle on politicization of a tragedy...........

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/gloria-steinem-attributed-quote-goes-viral-wake-las-vegas-massacre-210841834.html

[Smokin Joe]

This one will be a hot mess, indefinitely.  Any investigating body from the federal government will be mistrusted.   That many people involved will generate literally thousands of different and contradicting eyewitness testimonies.   The 24 hour news cycle and rush to be first will generate misinformation and disinformation.  Internet trolls will muddy the waters. 

It will probably go on for years. People still believe the DC sniper had some connection to jihad.

Well, it wasn't some white man in a white van....

[ABX]

Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.

I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd.  The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.

Just the way things are coming together so far, I really don't think this was politically motivated. He originally was trying to get rooms overlooking a different concert event that had an entirely different demographic (tween, teen, millennial, more 'liberal' in stereotype).   Heck, Bill Nye was one of the headliners at that per their website.

I also don't think even if it were the country event that one could read too much into that. Country has become very pop culture and crosses all political boundaries now. This isn't your flag flying, Hank Jr. type of country. This is more Justin Beiber in a cowboy hat.

[edpc]

Well, it wasn't some white man in a white van....

I had the luck of working on call with critical care medical equipment in the Baltimore/Washington corridor at that time.  Company vehicle - white Ford Windstar.  Good times.

[Smokin Joe]

Literally the difference between life and death for a lot of people.  I haven't seen any data on it yet...but I'm wondering if the majority of those killed were closer to the stage area...i.e. closer to the shooter where bullet velocity and energy would have been greater.

I'm thinking some of the wounded were hit by ricochets off the pavement.

[driftdiver]

Data on .223 Remington/ 5.56 Nato is here:

http://gundata.org/cartridge/8/.223-remington-(5.56x45mm-nato)/

@driftdiver

I'm not sniping at you but the numbers you posted just looked inordinately low for both cartridges and, as it happens, the were.

@Bigun
I did a search and used the info it presented.  Quickly compared to other sites which were close.

As you probably know there are a number of variables.   My only point of posting that was both rounds lose significant energy at 350 yds vs 100yds and I thought that was a factor.

[driftdiver]

I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now,  really eager to get home.  I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink.  I never ever drink Champaign-  thank the stars I did!

Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood .   It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.

Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened.  Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began,  yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour.   They must have known he was already dead.  The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.

Why did he kill himself so early?  Because his dirty work was done.  The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point.  I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists.  The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector,  was to commit a terrorist act.  The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up.  He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives.  He may well have been apolitical like his brother says.   He was,  I think,  caught up in an inextricable situation,  did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price,  and then shot himself.

Well,  that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now.   We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable.  So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.

@Jazzhead
I love my family but I am not gonna murder a bunch of people as a ransom.  IMO that changes nothing even if it were true.

[Suppressed]

I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists.

I think that is hugely unlikely.

The guy gives up his life and murders a bunch of innocents for a family member of his girlfriend?  If he's selfish, he doesn't do it (because he's dead).  If he thinks of others, he doesn't do it (because he'd kill innocents).  It would be a very weird circumstance, especially with the Starbucks manager report that he often berated her and implied she was for hire.


And if this was for terrorists, as others are guessing, then it works for them only if the terrorists get credit.  Did any Philippines terrorist group make a credible claim for credit?

[Suppressed]

Literally the difference between life and death for a lot of people.  I haven't seen any data on it yet...but I'm wondering if the majority of those killed were closer to the stage area...i.e. closer to the shooter where bullet velocity and energy would have been greater.

iPhone saved someone from what was (I'm guessing) a ricochet...

[Bigun]

@Bigun
I did a search and used the info it presented.  Quickly compared to other sites which were close.

As you probably know there are a number of variables.   My only point of posting that was both rounds lose significant energy at 350 yds vs 100yds and I thought that was a factor.

  

[thackney]

Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.

I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd.  The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.

Have you seen any recent reports still talking about Full Auto?  More recent seems to only discuss the Bump Stock.  I am wondering now if none of them were really Full Auto.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/us/las-vegas-gunman.html

...Twelve of the rifles Mr. Paddock had in his luxury suite on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino were outfitted with a “bump stock,” a device that enables a gun to fire hundreds of rounds per minute, like a machine gun, which may explain how he was able to rain such devastation on the crowd below, law enforcement officials said. Such devices are generally legal, and the possibility that he may have used them set off a fresh round of calls by Democratic lawmakers in Washington to pass more gun regulations after the tragedy....

[ABX]

Have you seen any recent reports still talking about Full Auto?  More recent seems to only discuss the Bump Stock.  I am wondering now if none of them were really Full Auto.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/us/las-vegas-gunman.html

...Twelve of the rifles Mr. Paddock had in his luxury suite on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino were outfitted with a “bump stock,” a device that enables a gun to fire hundreds of rounds per minute, like a machine gun, which may explain how he was able to rain such devastation on the crowd below, law enforcement officials said. Such devices are generally legal, and the possibility that he may have used them set off a fresh round of calls by Democratic lawmakers in Washington to pass more gun regulations after the tragedy....

I would suspect, just from the time and cost involved in getting a real Class 3 gun, and if he applied for a legal transfer that would have been revealed already, that he only had bump stocks. On the images, one clearly had the Slide Fire brand (has a unique trigger area). They are cheap, no special checks needed, and install in minutes.

[Suppressed]

The trigonometry of terror: Why the Las Vegas shooting was so deadly
OCT. 4, 2017, 3:00 A.M.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-the-trigonometry-of-terror-why-the-las-1507085772-htmlstory.html



[...]

“He had a huge area of three, four or five football fields with people standing shoulder to shoulder,” Alphin said. “He was not aiming at any individual person. He was just throwing bullets in a huge ‘beaten zone.’”

Beaten zone is an infantry term dating to World War I. Shaped like the area a searchlight casts across a flat surface, it represents the area where bullets can strike, and moves substantially with tiny changes in the tilt of the gun.

If the shooter shifted by about 1 degree, or the width of two fingers held at arm’s length, Alphin said, the beaten zone would fall outside the crowd.

[...]

Excerpt.



Lots of stuff by LTC Arthur B. Alphin, USA (Ret.), saying the shooter must have had training.  With all due respect, I think he's wrong.

[Smokin Joe]

I would suspect, just from the time and cost involved in getting a real Class 3 gun, and if he applied for a legal transfer that would have been revealed already, that he only had bump stocks. On the images, one clearly had the Slide Fire brand (has a unique trigger area). They are cheap, no special checks needed, and install in minutes.

@thackney To answer you both, what we 'know' will be the narrative the Liberal Media want to present.  As Class III arms are already ridiculously expensive (because, in part, of the restrictions placed on those made after 1986--thanks GHWB), the Libmedia wants to go after the po' boy alternative that requires neither the compliance costs nor the core expense of purchasing the arm. An AK-47 on the world market is a small fraction of the cost of a transferable weapon in the US, and will likely be newer and in better shape. the same price difference will be seen for a vintage transferable M-16 for the average schmuck vs a current production M4 for LEOs.
So for Mr./Mrs. Joe 6-pack, the cost of the bump fire stock makes it an item that can be had, the Class III rifle cost-prohibitive.

[edpc]

The trigonometry of terror: Why the Las Vegas shooting was so deadly

Lots of stuff by LTC Arthur B. Alphin, USA (Ret.), saying the shooter must have had training.  With all due respect, I think he's wrong.

Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor.  About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd.  Perhaps the sphinx and obelisk in front was too much of an obstruction?

[Applewood]

It is a sad state, but I see fake sob story fundraisers almost weekly, many were caught around here after the hurricanes asking for donations only to find them turning around and reselling them. There was one lady near here, still operating too, that was caught raising money for tornado victims a few years ago in Oklahoma who was pocketing the money herself. Before we knew about this, last year we even loaded up two cars full of toys for one of her Christmas fundraisers, only to see a week or so later, her kids selling a lot of the stuff on garage sale pages. Sadly, she has a little circle of friends that are constantly defending her and she is still doing this crap. The police won't do anything because they are 'donations' to unofficial orgs, like a gift, and they say you can't prosecute someone for using a gift a different way than you intended.

What about fraudulent inducement?  I don't know.  Has anyone talked to the local district attorney?

[ABX]

Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor.  About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd.

It may have had everything to do with what casinos he had high status at to basically tell them what rooms he wanted and get his way.

[ABX]

What about fraudulent inducement?  I don't know.  Has anyone talked to the local district attorney?

I know one in Oklahoma is looking into it re the tornado incident and it has been in the news a few times, but they are very backlogged and haven't gotten to it yet.

[Smokin Joe]

Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor.  About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd.

Shape is wrong. The higher you get, the fewer rooms, and doubtless, the more expensive. Also, lower floors would be able to see up better, and he might be easier to track. From the standpoint of wanting elevation and field of fire, the Mandalay Bay was likely the best choice.

[Applewood]

That's never going to matter or be good enough for some.  If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS.  Have some Excedrin nearby.  I know it gave me a headache.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3591832/posts

Just an aside, but I don't recognize any of the posters to that thread.

[edpc]

It may have had everything to do with what casinos he had high status at to basically tell them what rooms he wanted and get his way.

Both are operated by MGM Resorts. Not sure if that means anything in the casino world since I don't gamble.

[Cyber Liberty]

@thackney To answer you both, what we 'know' will be the narrative the Liberal
So for Mr./Mrs. Joe 6-pack, the cost of the bump fire stock makes it an item that can be had, the Class III rifle cost-prohibitive.

That's about the size of it right there. True automatic weapons are simply priced out of reach.  I have a friend with a fully-auto AR15 that he bought in 1986 on the advice of a friend ("Shit the money if you have to, but get this weapon, you'll never have another chance!"), and today it's worth easily $20K (It's not even in pristine condition).  I've fired it, and I'm sure it's not that different from a bump-stock.  I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.  I see no purpose in having one for myself, but I can only make that decision for myself and not anybody else.