Jury refuses to convict in Bundy ranch standoff

[Wingnut]

 

By Ken Ritter, Associated Press
Published Tuesday, Aug. 22, 2017 | 4:09 p.m.
Updated 17 minutes ago

A federal jury in Las Vegas refused Tuesday to convict four accused gunman in a 2014 standoff with federal authorities near the Nevada ranch of states' rights figure Cliven Bundy.

In a verdict that delivered a stunning setback to federal prosecutors, the jury acquitted Ricky Lovelien and Steven Stewart of all 10 charges against them.

Defendants Scott Drexler and Eric Parker were found not guilty of most charges against them. The jury did not reach verdicts on four charges against Parker and two charges against Drexler.

The results stunned a courtroom full of the defendants' supporters, many of whom broke into applause after Chief U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro ordered Lovelien and Stewart freed immediately.

The judge set a hearing Wednesday to decide whether to free Parker and Drexler pending a decision by prosecutors whether to try them for a third time.

Prosecutors said the men conspired with Bundy family members and wielded weapons to threaten the lives of federal agents enforcing lawful court orders to remove Bundy cattle from public land after he failed to pay grazing fees.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2017/aug/22/jury-refuses-to-convict-in-bundy-ranch-standoff/

[Cyber Liberty]

A good start.  Are they going to repay Bundy for the cattle they murdered?

[Rivergirl]

Answered prayers.

[bigheadfred]

I've been telling you all juries can be strange animals. We'll see what the one does in Charlottesville.

[Suppressed]

A good start.  Are they going to repay Bundy for the cattle they murdered?

They should start negotiations on that topic after he pays up on all the back grazing fees he owes to the American taxpayer.  He was getting the use of the land at a small fraction of market value and he still didn't pay.  Disgusting leech.

[Cyber Liberty]

They should start negotiations on that topic after he pays up on all the back grazing fees he owes to the American taxpayer.  He was getting the use of the land at a small fraction of market value and he still didn't pay.  Disgusting leech.

He had a deal with the State.  The money was in the bank to be paid as it had been for years.  You are parroting a liberal talking point.  Maybe we should get the EPA to take care of this.

[Smokin Joe]

They should start negotiations on that topic after he pays up on all the back grazing fees he owes to the American taxpayer.  He was getting the use of the land at a small fraction of market value and he still didn't pay.  Disgusting leech.

They show that land as green on the map, but it's brown on the ground. We aren't talking shortgrass prairie, there.

[Suppressed]

He had a deal with the State.  The money was in the bank to be paid as it had been for years.  You are parroting a liberal talking point.  Maybe we should get the EPA to take care of this.

I fail to see what the EPA has to do with this, but I guess you like the big government subsidizing the grazing at minimal rates, so perhaps that's why you'd like big-government EPA involved.

[Suppressed]

They show that land as green on the map, but it's brown on the ground. We aren't talking shortgrass prairie, there.

I missed the part where they put a gun to his head and forced him to use the land.

[Smokin Joe]

I missed the part where they put a gun to his head and forced him to use the land.

They didn't. My comment was aimed at the "below market" comment for lease rates. There's more to grazing land than just acreage, when it comes to setting grazing rates. Acres per AUM in Nevada tend to be a lot higher than say, Eastern Montana or North Dakota.

[Cripplecreek]

I've been telling you all juries can be strange animals. We'll see what the one does in Charlottesville.

Judges can surprise as well. The judge who acquitted the Hutaree was a Clinton appointed black female and she was brutal in her opinion that the feds had created such a crappy a BS case out of thin air

[Suppressed]

They didn't. My comment was aimed at the "below market" comment for lease rates. There's more to grazing land than just acreage, when it comes to setting grazing rates. Acres per AUM in Nevada tend to be a lot higher than say, Eastern Montana or North Dakota.

Okay, so let's say it is, for duscussion.

We tell millennials to go to where the jobs are, not to just steal things.

Why should we say it's okay for Bundy to steal if he doesn't think the land is worth the charge?  The guy is a leech, and it's not conservative to support a thief who steals from the taxpayer.

[Smokin Joe]

Okay, so let's say it is, for duscussion.

We tell millennials to go to where the jobs are, not to just steal things.

Why should we say it's okay for Bundy to steal if he doesn't think the land is worth the charge?  The guy is a leech, and it's not conservative to support a thief who steals from the taxpayer.

As I recall, his payments were refused. Again, my comment was in response to the statement that the grazing fees were below market value.

[GtHawk]

I fail to see what the EPA has to do with this, but I guess you like the big government subsidizing the grazing at minimal rates, so perhaps that's why you'd like big-government EPA involved.

Not the EPA, this all really starts here:
1989: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service lists the desert tortoise as an endangered species. A year later, its designation was changed to "threatened." And next:

March 1993: The Washington Post publishes a story about the federal government's efforts to protect the desert tortoise in Nevada. Near Las Vegas, the Bureau of Land Management designated hundreds of thousands of acres of federal land for strict conservation efforts. "Among the conservation measures required," according to the Post's coverage, "are the elimination of livestock grazing and strict limits on off-road vehicle use in the protected tortoise habitat. Two weeks ago, the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land."


What you can't get away from is the issue of the feds grabbing so much land in so many states,  The federal government, which owns 87 percent of the land in Nevada, think about that. Around the same time that this was going on in Nevada there was increased pressure in other states to take back land that was seen as stolen in overreach by the federal government and this also caused the feds to escalate their actions in Nevada aginst the ranchers. It's not as simple as greedy ranchers wanting cheap grazing, the Bundy's had been ranching and grazing on tthat land since 1877 and suddenly the cattle are a danger to the desert tortoise, interestingly huge solar power generating facilities in areas deemed at risk for the desert tortoise are not an issue.

[Smokin Joe]

That was the end of the Barstow to Vegas Motorcycle Race, too. (From 1964 to 1989).

[GtHawk]

That was the end of the Barstow to Vegas Motorcycle Race, too. (From 1964 to 1989).

The biggest problem is the Federal government land grab.

https://qz.com/881165/map-obama-established-more-national-monuments-than-any-other-president/

Of course Clinton and Bush were responsible for quite a bit to, while I firmly believe in a National Park system, there has been too much land stolen from the states and the control taken out of the states and its residents for the protection of those lands for all Americans ,  oh and of course to protect the little critters from us evil humans, and it has just gone too damn far.

[Suppressed]

What you can't get away from is the issue of the feds grabbing so much land in so many states,  The federal government, which owns 87 percent of the land in Nevada, think about that.

That's not from land grab. That's largely from the original creation of the state.  Constitutionally, perhaps, much of what we call "Nevada" should be US Territory, not part of the state. But the state doesn't want to give up that land, as they get federal funds based on acreage.

On the other hand, they don't want the actual land, as it costs more to maintain than they get from the little productive use. So suckers on the East Coast have to pay for their benefit. Lots of federal land goes up for sale with no buyers, including the states.

When it comes down to it, many ranchers are often against the states taking it, in reality, because they get subsidized rates for leases...after all, if they wanted the land, they could buy it themselves, but why do so when someone else is paying the tab?

Around the same time that this was going on in Nevada there was increased pressure in other states to take back land that was seen as stolen in overreach by the federal government and this also caused the feds to escalate their actions in Nevada aginst the ranchers.

Rumblings of it, but when push comes to shove, they don't actually want that.  But it's a good red-meat political issue.

It's not as simple as greedy ranchers wanting cheap grazing,

Of course not.

the Bundy's had been ranching and grazing on tthat land since 1877 and suddenly the cattle are a danger to the desert tortoise

Yes, times change. We discover tobacco is unhealthy, buggies aren't as efficient as the internal combustion engine, PCBs can kill, irresponsibly pumped aquifers deplete, elevators no longer need an operator, etc.  We have to adjust.

One problem we are seeing culturally is that The Western US mindset hasn't faced The Tragedy of the Commons and learned to manage it, something the East Coast has had to do for hundreds of years.  So there are growing pains as reality sets in.

interestingly huge solar power generating facilities in areas deemed at risk for the desert tortoise are not an issue.

It goes without saying that Harry is dirty.

[Cyber Liberty]

I fail to see what the EPA has to do with this, but I guess you like the big government subsidizing the grazing at minimal rates, so perhaps that's why you'd like big-government EPA involved.

It seemed like just a couple of days ago you were defending the EPA from people who were claiming it is a corrupt, out of control agency.  I just thought maybe you thought the same way about other agencies too, based on your use of liberal talking points to attack Bundy and his supporters. 

That's why I mentioned it.  Sorry.  Sometimes my memory is faulty.

[bigheadfred]

That's not from land grab. That's largely from the original creation of the state.  Constitutionally, perhaps, much of what we call "Nevada" should be US Territory, not part of the state. But the state doesn't want to give up that land, as they get federal funds based on acreage.

On the other hand, they don't want the actual land, as it costs more to maintain than they get from the little productive use. So suckers on the East Coast have to pay for their benefit. Lots of federal land goes up for sale with no buyers, including the states.

When it comes down to it, many ranchers are often against the states taking it, in reality, because they get subsidized rates for leases...after all, if they wanted the land, they could buy it themselves, but why do so when someone else is paying the tab?
Rumblings of it, but when push comes to shove, they don't actually want that.  But it's a good red-meat political issue.

Of course not.

Yes, times change. We discover tobacco is unhealthy, buggies aren't as efficient as the internal combustion engine, PCBs can kill, irresponsibly pumped aquifers deplete, elevators no longer need an operator, etc.  We have to adjust.

One problem we are seeing culturally is that The Western US mindset hasn't faced The Tragedy of the Commons and learned to manage it, something the East Coast has had to do for hundreds of years.  So there are growing pains as reality sets in.

It goes without saying that Harry is dirty.

I reject your arguments.

[Restored]

I viewed this much as I view the statue thing. It was OK for eons and suddenly, it wasn't OK. That usually means it was driven by politics.

[Smokin Joe]

I viewed this much as I view the statue thing. It was OK for eons and suddenly, it wasn't OK. That usually means it was driven by politics.

Actually, by BLM policy creep. (Bureau of Land Management, not the other bunch who popped up shortly after the Bundy ranch incident, likely to overwhelm web searches for "BLM" as much as anything. Under Obama, I don't believe in coincidence.)

Changing regulations about providing and use of water sources for livestock, alteration of weed killing policies, burn policies, and access limitations have made it increasingly difficult to graze cattle on Federal Land.