Author Topic: Replacing the Republican Party  (Read 35290 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #700 on: August 25, 2017, 05:39:04 pm »
Oh, the RNC hated a conservative Ted Cruz that wouldn't fall in line with Republican "leadership", and I believe they thought that Trump would never win.  They would have rather Hillary win than a guy they hated, so arranged for the guy they thought wouldn't win to go up against her.

And that's why a couple of them that shouldn't have been around past the first state primary hung on until the bitter end as well.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #701 on: August 25, 2017, 05:40:13 pm »
I just think we need to stop feeding ourselves feel-good myths about this supposed "conservative majority".  The evidence to support it's existence simply does not exist.  If we want it to exist, we've got a lot of people to persuade.

I believe there is truth to this statement.  I think the depraved state of our culture testifies of this fact.   I know I have watched churches actually embrace overt abomination as right and good and adopt the SJW doctrines as biblical while denouncing the bible itself, just as an example of how intrusive this big government social justice movement is and how insidious it's reach.

The acceptance of Big Government Socialism and 'making government work better' by making it larger is on nearly every Republican's lips I talk with in the meat world. The idea of shrinking government and 'leaving people to fend for themselves' is a horror of thought to a people who do not want the risk of liberty and personal responsibility - but WANT more than anything - the promise of the safety net, which they think Government exists to provide them. 

Persuading people of the rightness of Conservatism is something the GOP has refused to do since Reagan.  In fact Bush tarnished the entire premise of the values of Conservatism with his 'kinder, gentler Conservatism' - as if what Reagan espoused was harsh and bitter.

Persuading people now of the benefits of foundational principles is no less the task of converting die-hard Socialists.  And we have to start from the ground floor, and we need to be separate from the corrupted parties in D.C. because they WANT Socialism, because it gives them more power and control over your life and wallet.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #702 on: August 25, 2017, 05:41:27 pm »
Oh, the RNC hated a conservative Ted Cruz that wouldn't fall in line with Republican "leadership", and I believe they thought that Trump would never win.  They would have rather Hillary win than a guy they hated, so arranged for the guy they thought wouldn't win to go up against her.

That's as reasonable a theory as any other, Roos.  It's true Trump's win surprised the Hell out of everyone (but the voters, that is.  I wasn't surprised, you?).
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #703 on: August 25, 2017, 05:42:28 pm »

I just think we need to stop feeding ourselves feel-good myths about this supposed "conservative majority".  The evidence to support it's existence simply does not exist.  If we want it to exist, we've got a lot of people to persuade.

The exit polls indicated that 15% of self-identifying "conservatives," voted for Hillary. So at best, the word is a fuzzy classifier.

Exit polls do not measure people that don't vote--so it is easy to make claims about how many, and how/who they could be motivated to vote for, if they could be motivated to vote, etc.. Of the small parties on the center-right, only the Libertarians got over 1/2 percent.

Ross Perot used a different party, and failed. Donald Trump used the GOP and succeeded, indicating that reform from within is plausible, but from without is less likely.

I will leave the debate of just precisely what is "conservatism," to the rest of you.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #704 on: August 25, 2017, 05:42:36 pm »
And that's why a couple of them that shouldn't have been around past the first state primary hung on until the bitter end as well.

Oh, you mean like "the Son of a Mailman?"  Favorite candidate of a friend we both hold near and dear?
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #705 on: August 25, 2017, 05:47:22 pm »
It was an extremely diluted field this time around.  16 candidates.  Had there been only two or three I believe his numbers would have been bigger.

But even when it was whittled down to only a few candidates, Cruz still didn't pull anything close to the number of voters he should have if conservatives are "far and away" the majority.  The votes simply don't match the claim.  It's not even close.

Quote
See the dirty little secret is that it wasn't just the DNC that doesn't want to see someone in the mold of Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater take the Presidency ever again...it's the RNC as well.  When Reagan won he had to win against his own party too...in an era way before Fox News.  Lets remember the term "Voodoo Economics" wasn't coined by the Dems...that's what Poppy Bush called Reagan's economic plan in the 1980 election during one of the debates.

No argument there, but a lot of the people doing that are part of that 40% of self-identified conservatives.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #706 on: August 25, 2017, 05:47:49 pm »
That's as reasonable a theory as any other, Roos.  It's true Trump's win surprised the Hell out of everyone (but the voters, that is.  I wasn't surprised, you?).

I was only slightly surprised.  My hatred of Hillary makes it hard for me to accurately gauge "normal" people's hatred of her, though I knew plenty of it existed.  Maybe a better way to say it for me is I had a good understanding for why Trump beat Hillary.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #707 on: August 25, 2017, 05:47:57 pm »
Ted Cruz had plenty of publicity.  People -- certainly at least the "true conservatives" that supposedly are far and away the majority -- knew the differences between Cruz and Trump.  And he still couldn't even get 8 million votes.

I just think we need to stop feeding ourselves feel-good myths about this supposed "conservative majority".  The evidence to support it's existence simply does not exist.  If we want it to exist, we've got a lot of people to persuade.

Worth repeating,  And remembering.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #708 on: August 25, 2017, 06:08:53 pm »
Worth repeating,  And remembering.

Yes, indeed.   I admit to being as surprised as anyone at Trump's appeal in the GOP primaries, but I shouldn't have been.   The average voter isn't all that interested in tax reform and entitlement reform and the other issues that I've always been animated about - at least not in the way that conservatives have historically tended to talk about such things.   And abortion and religious liberty and gay rights, while interesting,  don't in the end motivate anyone other than religious types and those who reflexively oppose them. 

 The average voter knows in his gut that his kids won't grow up with the same opportunities that he did.   The average voter knows in his gut that the culprit is globalism, and resents the unfairness of having to compete for work with foreigners earning pennies on the dollar. 

Ted Cruz couldn't articulate those concerns.   But Donald Trump could. 

I suggest conservatives recognize that our message needs to be retooled to retain relevance in the real world.   Trump's a beast of a man, but one with the germ of an idea and a finger on the pulse of this nation's fundamental discontent.     
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:10:54 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #709 on: August 25, 2017, 06:37:29 pm »
But even when it was whittled down to only a few candidates, Cruz still didn't pull anything close to the number of voters he should have if conservatives are "far and away" the majority.  The votes simply don't match the claim.  It's not even close.

No argument there, but a lot of the people doing that are part of that 40% of self-identified conservatives.

I think by the point it had been whittled down the damage from the National Enquirer, Trump's BS about Iowa and Colorado along with his other threats and the wall to wall coverage of all things Donny on Fox News had been done.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:38:16 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #710 on: August 25, 2017, 06:39:05 pm »
BS @Jazzhead.  The "average Republican voter" was Pissed at eight years of a President mocking them at every turn and crapping on everything they held dear.  All they wanted was to "win" to get that scum out of the White House.  They didn't care who it was, so they voted for the one they thought most likely to beat Hillary.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:40:39 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #711 on: August 25, 2017, 06:40:14 pm »
BS.  @Jazzhead  The "average Republican voter" was Pissed at eight years of a President mocking them at every turn and crapping on everything they held dear.  All they wanted was to "win" to get that scum put of the White House.  They didn't care who it was, so they voted for the one they thought most likely to beat Hillary.

Meanwhile Hillary made the fatal calculation of thinking she'd set herself up against the one candidate she could beat.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:40:51 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #712 on: August 25, 2017, 06:52:06 pm »
BS @Jazzhead.  The "average Republican voter" was Pissed at eight years of a President mocking them at every turn and crapping on everything they held dear.  All they wanted was to "win" to get that scum out of the White House.  They didn't care who it was, so they voted for the one they thought most likely to beat Hillary.

Buy this man a drink!      :beer:
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #713 on: August 25, 2017, 06:54:33 pm »
I am a firm believer in the common sense, of looking at examples of things which have already proven to be successful.

An astute student of politics, should therefore look at what led to Trump's win. What did he do, and how did he do it?

If the answer is merely to demean Trump's voters or him, it leads nowhere, but in the same circles the media, the democrats, and Trump's detractors have been wandering in.

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #714 on: August 25, 2017, 07:14:32 pm »
An astute student of politics, should therefore look at what led to Trump's win. What did he do, and how did he do it?


He lied through his teeth and unfairly disparaged his competition through slander and libel.
If you think that sort of thing is 'winning', that's another reason to walk away.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #715 on: August 25, 2017, 07:18:48 pm »
BS @Jazzhead.  The "average Republican voter" was Pissed at eight years of a President mocking them at every turn and crapping on everything they held dear.  All they wanted was to "win" to get that scum out of the White House.  They didn't care who it was, so they voted for the one they thought most likely to beat Hillary.

My post was addressing the motivation of the "average voter", not the "average Republican voter" - that is, the folks who (in some cases) voted twice for Obama and then switched to a populist - NOT a conservative. 

The "average Republican voter" likely did vote for Trump - with nose clenched - simply because he "wasn't Hillary".   But that just explains why the base "came home" on election day.   The base didn't decide this election - it was voters - some of whom may not have voted at all in recent elections - who were drawn to a candidate who spoke to their concerns about lost jobs and rampant globalism.   
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:20:42 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #716 on: August 25, 2017, 07:22:44 pm »
He lied through his teeth and unfairly disparaged his competition through slander and libel.
If you think that sort of thing is 'winning', that's another reason to walk away.

That's your opinion.  His supporters didn't vote for a "liar", they voted for someone who spoke to their concerns.   

If Trump at this point wants to find success, he'll do what Bill Clinton did - triangulate between liberals and conservatives.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #717 on: August 25, 2017, 07:23:07 pm »
He lied through his teeth and unfairly disparaged his competition through slander and libel.
If you think that sort of thing is 'winning', that's another reason to walk away.

@roamer_1 and lets not forget the implied threats of violence from his supporters if he didn't win the primaries or didn't get the nomination at the convention.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #718 on: August 25, 2017, 07:23:46 pm »
That's your opinion.  His supporters didn't vote for a "liar", they voted for someone who spoke to their concerns.   

If Trump at this point wants to find success, he'll do what Bill Clinton did - triangulate between liberals and conservatives.

It isn't an opinion. It is a fact.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #719 on: August 25, 2017, 07:25:02 pm »
That's your opinion.  His supporters didn't vote for a "liar", they voted for someone who spoke to their concerns.   

If Trump at this point wants to find success, he'll do what Bill Clinton did - triangulate between liberals and conservatives.

You do realize don't you that Slick Willie's "triangulation" was just a myth.  After the '94 mid terms he had no choice but to give concessions to the Republicans on major policy issues otherwise he'd never gotten anything passed.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #720 on: August 25, 2017, 07:25:51 pm »
@roamer_1 and lets not forget the implied threats of violence from his supporters if he didn't win the primaries or didn't get the nomination at the convention.

Yep. To reward that POS with a win is unconscionable. And to give him loyalty is beyond the pale.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:26:28 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #721 on: August 25, 2017, 07:26:00 pm »
My post was addressing the motivation of the "average voter", not the "average Republican voter" - that is, the folks who (in some cases) voted twice for Obama and then switched to a populist - NOT a conservative. 

The "average Republican voter" likely did vote for Trump - with nose clenched - simply because he "wasn't Hillary".   But that just explains why the base "came home" on election day.   The base didn't decide this election - it was voters - some of whom may not have voted at all in recent elections - who were drawn to a candidate who spoke to their concerns about lost jobs and rampant globalism.   

OK.  "Average Voter" if that floats your boat.  That was my original sentence, but I added Republican as a qualifier because this forum is, with a few notable exceptions, Republican.  My point still stands.  Following anybody else but Obama with an opponent not named "Clinton" I don't see how Trump would have won.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #722 on: August 25, 2017, 07:28:14 pm »
You do realize don't you that Slick Willie's "triangulation" was just a myth.  After the '94 mid terms he had no choice but to give concessions to the Republicans on major policy issues otherwise he'd never gotten anything passed.

I think that's been @Jazzhead's premise all along:  We need to give up on what's important to us, or we won't get even what's unimportant.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #723 on: August 25, 2017, 07:29:42 pm »
I think that's been @Jazzhead's premise all along:  We need to give up on what's important to us, or we won't get even what's unimportant.

Sorry...my standards and values aren't fluid like that. 
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #724 on: August 25, 2017, 07:30:12 pm »
But even when it was whittled down to only a few candidates, Cruz still didn't pull anything close to the number of voters he should have if conservatives are "far and away" the majority.  The votes simply don't match the claim.  It's not even close.
[/quote

There is a bit of a fallacy in that, imo. I simply don't like Cruz. I wouldn't have voted for him if he had been the candidate for POTUS.  So, does that mean I am not a true conservative, or you didn't factor people like me into your equation?
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