Author Topic: VIDEO: Protesters Attacked Charlottesville Driver’s Car With Baseball Bat (Respectful discussion only please)  (Read 16761 times)

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Wingnut

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@bigheadfred

I recognize George Wallace in that photo, but otherwise I don't know the significance of it.

 :silly: :silly:

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Well, raccoons tried to get on our back porch - mama just chased 'em off with a broom...
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Online bigheadfred

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@bigheadfred

Okay, let me amend that.  If you're taking part in a Nazi rally/marching with them/willing to ally yourself with those "traditional-minded Americans", as someone put it to me recently, you may not BE a Nazi.  But you're nobody I would have to dinner or even allow on my front porch.  Then again, you may be open to some of their well-known agenda, and if you're willing to march  alongside them in that case, yeah, you're no better and you might as well have a membership card.

I recognize George Wallace in that photo, but otherwise I don't know the significance of it.


I have a feeling some of the people at that event were there to protest the removal of a statue only. The picture is from "Forrest Gump". A person too stupid to realize what he was getting into.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Silver Pines

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Strip the politics out of the events.
I can't defend intentionally running down anyone in the street without that being a clear response to a lethal threat, and as far as I can tell, there was no lethal threat being posed by those that guy hit.
As for the rest, it becomes a question of who had the permit to have their little shindig, and who did not. Apparently, one group did, the other did not.
If they had a permit, they had the Right to have that assembly, peacefully, without breaking any laws. That does not, nor should it imply that the message involved, that their symbols will not be offensive to anyone, as long as they do not break any laws, they are within their right to show those without molestation.
When people start threatening, hurling containers of bodily fluids and noxious substances, or projectiles, or otherwise molesting those who are abiding by the law, those people have infringed on the Rights of the people thus attacked, regardless of which groups are involved. Those people attacked, by statute and convention, have a Right to defend themselves, proportional to the nature of the attack, and hopefully with less onerous means than the attackers' methods. For the most part, defensive devices appear to have been used by the group which was attacked, (although a shield can be used offensively, its primary purpose is to protect, not offend, and if used in an offensive manner (other than to the sensibilities over its decoration), the subject of that must be at close quarters indeed, provided the user retains possession of the shield). 
Those utilizing projectiles, thrown containers of bodily fluids, fire, and finally clubs and other means could attack from further away, and apparently did.
As has been said my right to swing my fist ends where someone else begins. That isn't dependent on ideology, political party, religion, color, etc., it applies to everyone.
Whether or not we like it, one group attacked another.
Even more onerous is that those charged with keeping the peace pushed the two groups into further confrontation.
Worse yet, is that that appears to have been done for political gain by the carpetbagger in charge in Richmond, or on his orders.

I don't like any of the groups involved, they soil, imho, the very memory commemorated by the monuments to Southern Heritage they allegedly were there to protest or promote the removal of. But in legal terms, in terms of Rights, one group appears to have had theirs violated by the other, and wherever those chips may fall that does not imply any approval of the ideologies involved.

@Smokin Joe

Yes, but none of that is what I take issue with or what my posts have been addressing.  As much as I despise a Nazi, yeah, his free-speech rights are no different than anyone else's.  That's a given and something that should go without saying, to my mind at least.

My problem is the knee jerk impulse to jump to the defense of a Nazi because Antifa/BLM is standing on the other side.  Saying the guy should walk free, or a defense fund should be set up, or he was just a nice young man who was afraid his car's paint job would be damaged (yes, that WAS posted), is inexcusable. 

One poster was told about the guy's physical abuse of his handicapped mother---hitting her, pulling a knife on her---and the response was, "Well, maybe he was headed in the wrong direction."

Yes, just a bit...to the point of murder.

It's just more kneejerk binary thinking that says, well, Antifa and BLM are over here, and no one can be as bad as them, so let me come in for the opposite side.

The problem is, someone CAN be as bad.  Nazis are in that category.  They ALL suck, they all deserve each other.  It's not that hard. 


Silver Pines

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I have a feeling some of the people at that event were there to protest the removal of a statue only. The picture is from "Forrest Gump". A person too stupid to realize what he was getting into.

@bigheadfred

If you're protesting something and Nazis show up, you leave.  You don't ally yourself with them or be willing to give the appearance that you are.

Silver Pines

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I have a feeling some of the people at that event were there to protest the removal of a statue only. The picture is from "Forrest Gump". A person too stupid to realize what he was getting into.

@bigheadfred

Oh, okay, when I glanced at it, I didn't see Tom Hanks.  I don't think I could sit through that movie again.

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@bigheadfred

If you're protesting something and Nazis show up, you leave.  You don't ally yourself with them or be willing to give the appearance that you are.

NO! You do not allow them to control you! Not ever!

If you throw a party and uninvited guests appear do you shut down the party or just remove the uninvited?

« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 02:18:23 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Silver Pines

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Who is we?  And who are you mad at now?  Is it still Trump and are you saying Trump defended Nazis?  Simply because Trump said there is blame on both sides?

I hope you're not denying that there was blame on both sides.

"Who are you mad at now?"

@Emjay, I'm not about to waste my time indulging your personal issues with me, so you might as well stop chumming.


Online bigheadfred

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@bigheadfred

Oh, okay, when I glanced at it, I didn't see Tom Hanks.  I don't think I could sit through that movie again.

Welll, you kinda made my point. I think there were people at that rally who thought, oh look, Nazis. And didn't equate that they would be seen as Nazis themselves.

I agree that people should try not to be associated with extremist groups.

I admit I have zero experience with rallies or organized protests. I find on many occasions, as far as I am concerned, two is a crowd.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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NO! You do not allow them to control you! Not ever!

If you throw a party and uninvited guests appear do you shut down the party or just remove the uninvited?

Great point @Bigun !

Silver Pines

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NO! You do not allow them to control you! Not ever!

If you throw a party and uninvited guests appear do you shut down the party or just remove the uninvited?

@Bigun

Look, people here talk about their grandparents going overseas to fight the Nazis.  I was born to considerably older than usual parents.  When I was in grade school, kids thought my mother was my grandmother.  My father spent three years of his life as a teenager fighting those bastards in WWII.  I didn't have my parents with me very long because of the age factor, but soon after my father's death, and against my husband's smart advice, I watched a History Channel film of the Battle of the Bulge, which my very young father at the time was in the middle of.  I wish I hadn't, because now I can't forget the sounds and sights of what he went through.  He came home with PTSD, as we know it today.

 I will not smear the memory of my father who spent three years in hell for the sake of political tribalism or who "controls" whom.  It's a matter of decency.

Silver Pines

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Welll, you kinda made my point. I think there were people at that rally who thought, oh look, Nazis. And didn't equate that they would be seen as Nazis themselves.

I agree that people should try not to be associated with extremist groups.

I admit I have zero experience with rallies or organized protests. I find on many occasions, as far as I am concerned, two is a crowd.

@bigheadfred

Well, if they had half sense, they should have been able to figure out they might be viewed as associated with them, if they're in there marching with them.  Pretty basic.

Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe

Yes, but none of that is what I take issue with or what my posts have been addressing.  As much as I despise a Nazi, yeah, his free-speech rights are no different than anyone else's.  That's a given and something that should go without saying, to my mind at least.

My problem is the knee jerk impulse to jump to the defense of a Nazi because Antifa/BLM is standing on the other side.  Saying the guy should walk free, or a defense fund should be set up, or he was just a nice young man who was afraid his car's paint job would be damaged (yes, that WAS posted), is inexcusable. 

One poster was told about the guy's physical abuse of his handicapped mother---hitting her, pulling a knife on her---and the response was, "Well, maybe he was headed in the wrong direction."

Yes, just a bit...to the point of murder.

It's just more kneejerk binary thinking that says, well, Antifa and BLM are over here, and no one can be as bad as them, so let me come in for the opposite side.

The problem is, someone CAN be as bad.  Nazis are in that category.  They ALL suck, they all deserve each other.  It's not that hard.
What perhaps upsets me the most, is that any/every group who protests the destruction of monuments now will be colored with the actions of one troubled/demented/effed up person behind the wheel of a car and a handful of people parading around waving flags which had nothing to do with the war, or which are at most the co-opted symbols of Armies in the field. I did not see one of the Confederate political flags in any image of the riots, and frankly, I doubt that the participants on either side would have known the Flag of the Confederate States of America from any other.

All of these jerks have not just made it more difficult to retain our history, they have accelerated the destruction thereof.

An example is this Huffington Post article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/confederate-monuments-history-trump-baltimore_us_5995a3a6e4b0d0d2cc84c952 by an historical illiterate who doesn't realize the first casualties on both sides in the War weren't in South Carolina, but Baltimore, MD.

The writer: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/jane-dailey is an Associate Professor of History, University of Chicago and is apparently unaware that the invasion of Baltimore, and Maryland by the PA and Mass Militias was greeted with rioting in the streets in opposition to another States' armies invading Maryland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861
(Each State had its own Militia (army) prior to the War. There was a relatively small Federal Army, something well debated in The Federalist Papers, established partly to prevent the invasion of one state by another.)
People were killed on both sides: (From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War )
Quote
Maryland's territory surrounded the United States' capital of Washington, DC and could cut it off from the North.[94] It had numerous anti-Lincoln officials who tolerated anti-army rioting in Baltimore and the burning of bridges, both aimed at hindering the passage of troops to the South. Maryland's legislature voted overwhelmingly (53–13) to stay in the Union, but also rejected hostilities with its southern neighbors, voting to close Maryland's rail lines to prevent them from being used for war.[95] Lincoln responded by establishing martial law, and unilaterally suspending habeas corpus, in Maryland, along with sending in militia units from the North.[96] Lincoln rapidly took control of Maryland and the District of Columbia, by seizing many prominent figures, including arresting 1/3 of the members of the Maryland General Assembly on the day it reconvened.[95][97] All were held without trial, ignoring a ruling by the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court Roger Taney, a Maryland native, that only Congress (and not the president) could suspend habeas corpus (Ex parte Merryman). Indeed, federal troops imprisoned a prominent Baltimore newspaper editor, Frank Key Howard, Francis Scott Key's grandson, after he criticized Lincoln in an editorial for ignoring the Supreme Court Chief Justice's ruling.[98]

A glimpse of the Election map of 1860 shows where the State's sentiments lay, despite the concerted efforts of historians to diminish the egregious violation of the State by Union forces by calling Maryland a "Border State" or even claiming it was loyal to the Union.

The State remained militarily occupied until well after the war, until after its very Constitution had been replaced.

The author of the Huffpo article goes into tirades about things that happened in Alabama and Mississippi to "justify" the removal of statues 1000 miles away, where first blood was shed in a war that would kill some 1.2 million Americans, more than any other war in our history. God forbid that such ignorance hiding behind credentials will be used to further lead Americans away from the reality of the past.

Of 84 listed monuments in Baltimore https://data.baltimorecity.gov/Culture-Arts/Monuments/cpxf-kxp3 only 4 were removed.

Despite the following:
Negro Heroes of the U.S Monument
Billie Holiday monument
Frederick Douglas monument
Thurgood Marshall monument
giving equal representation to blacks, if you will.

Yet four monuments in a City which had strong Southern ties, to those who were Confederates, were removed by the current management from the place where first blood was shed in the war, not just by armies, but by citizens fighting to keep their homes from being invaded. That is bad enough, but the removal was not to deflect controversy, nor to preserve the monuments as works of art, but as is rumored, to destroy them.


Things were far more complicated than the fable presented as a simplistic picture of events (at best, patently ignoring the complexities leading up to conflict at worst), goes without saying.

That's my grievance, admittedly, that in all this protest, the original issue of preserving monuments to our history, warts and all, has been lost. How can anyone learn from history if they don't know it?

So the destruction continues, if anything, accelerated by the cowardice of spineless politicians who will not call for an end to violence, who perhaps sympathize with those who would rewrite or erase our history, spurred by the diabolical or the ignorant, and thus diminishing the accomplishments of those whose ancestors rose from bondage as well, who could have walked past those monuments not in anger, but with the smug knowledge that they, indeed, had overcome.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Emjay

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"Who are you mad at now?"

@Emjay, I'm not about to waste my time indulging your personal issues with me, so you might as well stop chumming.

I understand.  You've already wasted a lot of time with people here who are stupid enough to think that we don't call others 'nazis' without some evidence.

Everytime you tried to bolster your argument, you made it worse.

I still think your whole problem started with Trump.  He said there was blame on both sides.  And that is so obvious, it didn't need to be said but I'm glad he said it.

So, now we have nazis roaming the streets.  Get the children to safety.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

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She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline TomSea

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What perhaps upsets me the most, is that any/every group who protests the destruction of monuments now will be colored with the actions of one troubled/demented/effed up person behind the wheel of a car and a handful of people parading around waving flags which had nothing to do with the war, or which are at most the co-opted symbols of Armies in the field. I did not see one of the Confederate political flags in any image of the riots, and frankly, I doubt that the participants on either side would have known the Flag of the Confederate States of America from any other.

All of these jerks have not just made it more difficult to retain our history, they have accelerated the destruction thereof.

An example is this Huffington Post article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/confederate-monuments-history-trump-baltimore_us_5995a3a6e4b0d0d2cc84c952 by an historical illiterate who doesn't realize the first casualties on both sides in the War weren't in South Carolina, but Baltimore, MD.

The writer: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/jane-dailey is an Associate Professor of History, University of Chicago and is apparently unaware that the invasion of Baltimore, and Maryland by the PA and Mass Militias was greeted with rioting in the streets in opposition to another States' armies invading Maryland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861
(Each State had its own Militia (army) prior to the War. There was a relatively small Federal Army, something well debated in The Federalist Papers, established partly to prevent the invasion of one state by another.)
People were killed on both sides: (From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War )
A glimpse of the Election map of 1860 shows where the State's sentiments lay, despite the concerted efforts of historians to diminish the egregious violation of the State by Union forces by calling Maryland a "Border State" or even claiming it was loyal to the Union.

The State remained militarily occupied until well after the war, until after its very Constitution had been replaced.

The author of the Huffpo article goes into tirades about things that happened in Alabama and Mississippi to "justify" the removal of statues 1000 miles away, where first blood was shed in a war that would kill some 1.2 million Americans, more than any other war in our history. God forbid that such ignorance hiding behind credentials will be used to further lead Americans away from the reality of the past.

Of 84 listed monuments in Baltimore https://data.baltimorecity.gov/Culture-Arts/Monuments/cpxf-kxp3 only 4 were removed.

Despite the following:
Negro Heroes of the U.S Monument
Billie Holiday monument
Frederick Douglas monument
Thurgood Marshall monument
giving equal representation to blacks, if you will.

Yet four monuments in a City which had strong Southern ties, to those who were Confederates, were removed by the current management from the place where first blood was shed in the war, not just by armies, but by citizens fighting to keep their homes from being invaded. That is bad enough, but the removal was not to deflect controversy, nor to preserve the monuments as works of art, but as is rumored, to destroy them.


Things were far more complicated than the fable presented as a simplistic picture of events (at best, patently ignoring the complexities leading up to conflict at worst), goes without saying.

That's my grievance, admittedly, that in all this protest, the original issue of preserving monuments to our history, warts and all, has been lost. How can anyone learn from history if they don't know it?

So the destruction continues, if anything, accelerated by the cowardice of spineless politicians who will not call for an end to violence, who perhaps sympathize with those who would rewrite or erase our history, spurred by the diabolical or the ignorant, and thus diminishing the accomplishments of those whose ancestors rose from bondage as well, who could have walked past those monuments not in anger, but with the smug knowledge that they, indeed, had overcome.

"Lost Causers" argument, Maryland never voted to secede, I will go with conventional historians and that's why they are said to be a border state, that or for other reasons, not obscure arguments by Lost Causers. There were certainly, many in Maryland who did not want to become involved, it be not wanting to be a part of a White Supremacist immoral society or other.
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:54:06 pm by TomSea »

Silver Pines

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I understand.  You've already wasted a lot of time with people here who are stupid enough to think that we don't call others 'nazis' without some evidence.

Everytime you tried to bolster your argument, you made it worse.

I still think your whole problem started with Trump.  He said there was blame on both sides.  And that is so obvious, it didn't need to be said but I'm glad he said it.

So, now we have nazis roaming the streets.  Get the children to safety.


Yes, @Emjay, some politician/ tv show host colors my viewpoint more than my father's wartime experiences.   And describing his service to his country, and what he sacrificed to fight that scum, not only fails to bolster my argument but makes it worse.

Bite me, you old wretch.  And bite my father's in his grave while you're at it.

Offline Smokin Joe

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"Lost Causers" argument, Maryland never voted to secede, I will go with conventional historians and that's why they are said to be a border state, that or for other reasons, not obscure arguments by Lost Causers. There were certainly, many in Maryland who did not want to become involved, it be not wanting to be a part of a White Supremacist immoral society or other.
Of course they didn't. Virginia took too long, the Northern Militias invaded and 1/3 of the legislature had been imprisoned. The eventual vote that did occur was under the guns of the Union troops, and the legislature was replaced before that. A huge number of Marylanders left to fight for the South. It was an OCCUPIED state, not a 'border' state. If you want to play on mixed loyalties, look at Virginia, which was carved into two states.

Quote
Lincoln responded by establishing martial law, and unilaterally suspending habeas corpus, in Maryland, along with sending in militia units from the North.[96] Lincoln rapidly took control of Maryland and the District of Columbia, by seizing many prominent figures, including arresting 1/3 of the members of the Maryland General Assembly on the day it reconvened.[95][97] All were held without trial, ignoring a ruling by the Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court Roger Taney, a Maryland native, that only Congress (and not the president) could suspend habeas corpus (Ex parte Merryman). Indeed, federal troops imprisoned a prominent Baltimore newspaper editor, Frank Key Howard, Francis Scott Key's grandson, after he criticized Lincoln in an editorial for ignoring the Supreme Court Chief Justice's ruling.[98]
Ironically, Frank Key Howard was imprisoned in Ft. Mc Henry, without charges. 
Quote
In 1863 Howard wrote about his experience as a political prisoner at Fort McHenry in the book Fourteen Months in the American Bastille;[32] two of the publishers selling the book were then arrested.[31]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861

Land of the free, indeed.

So what happened after the confrontation in Baltimore?
Quote
After the April 19 riot, some small skirmishes occurred throughout Baltimore between citizens and police for the next month, but a sense of normalcy returned as the city was cleaned up. Mayor Brown and Maryland Governor Hicks implored President Lincoln to send no further troops through Maryland to avoid further confrontations. However, as Lincoln remarked to a peace delegation from the Young Men's Christian Association, Union soldiers were neither birds to fly over Maryland, nor moles to burrow under it.[24] On the evening of April 20 Hicks also authorized Brown to dispatch the Maryland state militia for the purpose of disabling the railroad bridges into the city—an act he would later deny. One of the militia leaders was John Merryman, who was arrested one month later, and held in defiance of a writ of habeas corpus, which led to the case of Ex parte Merryman.[25]

On April 19, Major General Robert Patterson, commander of the Department of Washington (Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, and the District of Columbia), ordered Brigadier General Benjamin Franklin Butler, with the 8th Massachusetts, to open and secure a route from Annapolis through Annapolis Junction to Washington. The 8th Massachusetts arrived by ship at Annapolis on April 20. Gov. Hicks and the Mayor of Annapolis protested, but Butler (a clever politician) bullied them into allowing troops to land at Annapolis, saying, "'I must land, for my troops are hungry.'—'No one in Annapolis will sell them anything,' replied these authorities of the State and city. Butler intimated that armed men were not always limited to the necessity of purchasing food when famished."[26]

The 8th Massachusetts, with the 7th New York, proceeded to Annapolis Junction (halfway between Baltimore and Washington), and the 7th New York went on to Washington, where, on the afternoon of April 25, they became the first troops to reach the capital by this route.[27]

There were calls for Maryland to declare secession in the wake of the riot. Governor Hicks called a special session of the state legislature to consider the situation. Since Annapolis, the capital, was occupied by Federal troops, and Baltimore was harboring many pro-Confederate mobs, Hicks directed the legislature to meet in Frederick, in the predominantly Unionist western part of the state. The legislature met on April 26; on April 29, it voted 53–13 against secession,[28][29] though it also voted not to reopen rail links with the North, and requested that Lincoln remove the growing numbers of federal troops in Maryland.[30] At this time the legislature seems to have wanted to maintain Maryland's neutrality in the conflict.[30]

Many more Union troops arrived. On May 13, Butler sent Union troops into Baltimore and declared martial law. He was replaced as commander of the Department of Annapolis by George Cadwalader, another Brigadier General in the United States Volunteers. Lincoln subsequently had the mayor, police chief, entire Board of Police, and the city council of Baltimore imprisoned without charges, as well as one sitting U.S. Congressman from Baltimore.[31] The Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, who was also a native of Maryland, ruled on June 4, 1861 in ex parte Merryman that Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus was unconstitutional, but Lincoln ignored the ruling...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861
Nope, the legislature did not vote to secede, nor, as a practical matter, could it. The actions taken by the Union troops and northern Militias were far from amicable, instead were the actions of an invading and hostile invader.
Occupied countries seldom get to vote their invader to leave, and if so, only are punished until replaced.

The State was already occupied. Either out of hesitation, cowardice or perfidy, Hicks did not call the Militia to muster, nor did the legislature vote to secede, as to do so would have meant immediate imprisonment and the forfeiture of all personal title and fortunes, if not their lives. For all the publicity given Southern POW camps (esp. Andersonville) and prisons, more POWs died in the Northern POW camps despite the relative abundance of food and clothing in the North than died in the Southern camps: war crimes trials are  only for those who lose.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:54:15 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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@Bigun

Look, people here talk about their grandparents going overseas to fight the Nazis.  I was born to considerably older than usual parents.  When I was in grade school, kids thought my mother was my grandmother.  My father spent three years of his life as a teenager fighting those bastards in WWII.  I didn't have my parents with me very long because of the age factor, but soon after my father's death, and against my husband's smart advice, I watched a History Channel film of the Battle of the Bulge, which my very young father at the time was in the middle of.  I wish I hadn't, because now I can't forget the sounds and sights of what he went through.  He came home with PTSD, as we know it today.

 I will not smear the memory of my father who spent three years in hell for the sake of political tribalism or who "controls" whom.  It's a matter of decency.

@CatherineofAragon

Three of my mother's brothers were there with your dad!  Get over your damned self!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:31:46 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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"Lost Causers" argument, Maryland never voted to secede, I will go with conventional historians and that's why they are said to be a border state, that or for other reasons, not obscure arguments by Lost Causers. There were certainly, many in Maryland who did not want to become involved, it be not wanting to be a part of a White Supremacist immoral society or other.

You and you revisionist historians can all go to hades as far as I'm concerned.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Of course they didn't. Virginia took too long, the Northern Militias invaded and 1/3 of the legislature had been imprisoned. The eventual vote that did occur was under the guns of the Union troops, and the legislature was replaced before that. A huge number of Marylanders left to fight for the South. It was an OCCUPIED state, not a 'border' state. If you want to play on mixed loyalties, look at Virginia, which was unconstitutionally carved into two states.

If I  may be so bold!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Emjay

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Yes, @Emjay, some politician/ tv show host colors my viewpoint more than my father's wartime experiences.   And describing his service to his country, and what he sacrificed to fight that scum, not only fails to bolster my argument but makes it worse.

Bite me, you old wretch.  And bite my father's in his grave while you're at it.

"Bite me, you old wretch"

Wow, true personality unmasked at last.

You are not the only person with parents who fought in wars. 

My ancestors fought for the South... and also for the North.  And against Nazis.  And against communists.

I won't sink to your level with the insults.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Online mystery-ak

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I had an uncle at the Bulge too..no one in the family was allowed to mention it or ask him any thing about it...I guess he too suffered from PTSD of their time....All of my ancestors were mostly military serving this country in one branch or another.

All of us here have one thing in common..our love and respect for the military and all those who serve...let's not forget that!
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Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

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Offline Smokin Joe

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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline edpc

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@CatherineofAragon - that said old wretch, bite me.....

Thanks for ruining Amazing Grace for me.   :0001:
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:20:23 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.