Author Topic: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols  (Read 3389 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2018, 02:31:10 pm »

When America was still, The Land of The Free.

Dear Lord how far we've fallen.

@To-Whose-Benefit? Back during the summer we were looking for a truck for my son's first vehicle and I had to explain to him why there was a gun rack affixed to the back window of one of the Ranger trucks we were looking at.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2018, 02:33:53 pm »
Thanks for the info -- I'll rethink choices for personal protection.

When you do that keep in mind that there is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm caliber at all IF you carry with the right ammo and the only right ammo for a 9mm handgun with a barrel shorter than 4" is Federal HST 124gr.

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« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 02:47:06 pm by Bigun »
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- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline WingNot

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2018, 02:37:52 pm »
@To-Whose-Benefit? Back during the summer we were looking for a truck for my son's first vehicle and I had to explain to him why there was a gun rack affixed to the back window of one of the Ranger trucks we were looking at.

LOL.

Those were standard equipment in every PU when I was in HS.  They would probably call the cops if you parked in a school lot with one.   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2018, 02:40:05 pm »
Thanks for the info -- I'll rethink choices for personal protection.

@libertybele

IMO asking the best cartridge for personal defense is like asking about politics or religion.   Most every gun person has their preference.

What it comes down to is what are you comfortable with and what can you shoot well.   I love my .45 but its a bit harder to conceal.   

While the 9mm may have less 'stopping power' then a .45 please show me one person that wants to be shot with anything.   Most of us will never need to fire a gun in self-defense.  When we do it will more than likely be at someone who will run at the first shot.   They won't take the time to determine if its a .22 or a .45 you're using.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2018, 02:44:32 pm »
@libertybele

IMO asking the best cartridge for personal defense is like asking about politics or religion.   Most every gun person has their preference.

What it comes down to is what are you comfortable with and what can you shoot well.   I love my .45 but its a bit harder to conceal.   

While the 9mm may have less 'stopping power' then a .45 please show me one person that wants to be shot with anything.   Most of us will never need to fire a gun in self-defense.  When we do it will more than likely be at someone who will run at the first shot.   They won't take the time to determine if its a .22 or a .45 you're using.

All very true!   888high58888
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2018, 03:04:45 pm »
All very true!   888high58888

I got one of these yesterday https://www.concealedcarry.com/product/brave-response-holster/

First holster I've found that I can wear while in a tshirt and shorts and that doesn't print.  at least not with my .357 rugar or my .40 S&W shield
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2018, 03:07:13 pm »
When you do that keep in mind that there is NOTHING wrong with the 9mm caliber at all IF you carry with the right ammo and the only right ammo for a 9mm handgun with a barrel shorter than 4" is Federal HST 124gr.

If you're a lady with a concealed carry license, they can be lighter and physically smaller to fit better in a purse.

Same argument can be made for a Smaller guy who needs to pack it under street clothes without being stopped, frisked, and held up for paperwork by every badge on the street.

But they are Far from ideal and I wouldn't trust my life to anything pushing a lightweight 124 grain bullet at Any velocity.

Get that pill moving fast enough to compensate for its light weight and you've got over penetration to deal with. Shoot your attackers And someone behind them with the same shot. No thanks.

Also the Hydrostatic shock to consider.

A .45 cal bullet is going to set up hydrostatic shock waves in living tissue that are All out of proportion to the much smaller waves a 9mm will. Inflict a lot more upset/damage, farther reaching shock wave, to more tissue and organs surrounding the bullet path.

That is a Huge difference in stopping power.

If, God Forbid, some ghoul Forces you to shoot them, you are going to have to answer some very specific questions after the fact.

Saying you intended to kill them is about the Worst possible answer to any of them.

Your Intent, was to stop them from killing or crippling you, or you can very quickly find yourself in a world of legal trouble. If they die as a result of it, that decision was Their's, not yours.

A bigger diameter, heavier, slower bullet is a far more effective stopper than a smaller lighter one no matter how it's constructed to mushroom at higher velocity.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2018, 03:13:29 pm »
If you're a lady with a concealed carry license, they can be lighter and physically smaller to fit better in a purse.

Same argument can be made for a Smaller guy who needs to pack it under street clothes without being stopped, frisked, and held up for paperwork by every badge on the street.

But they are Far from ideal and I wouldn't trust my life to anything pushing a lightweight 124 grain bullet at Any velocity.

Get that pill moving fast enough to compensate for its light weight and you've got over penetration to deal with. Shoot your attackers And someone behind them with the same shot. No thanks.

Also the Hydrostatic shock to consider.

A .45 cal bullet is going to set up hydrostatic shock waves in living tissue that are All out of proportion to the much smaller waves a 9mm will. Inflict a lot more upset/damage, farther reaching shock wave, to more tissue and organs surrounding the bullet path.

That is a Huge difference in stopping power.

If, God Forbid, some ghoul Forces you to shoot them, you are going to have to answer some very specific questions after the fact.

Saying you intended to kill them is about the Worst possible answer to any of them.

Your Intent, was to stop them from killing or crippling you, or you can very quickly find yourself in a world of legal trouble. If they die as a result of it, that decision was Their's, not yours.

A bigger diameter, heavier, slower bullet is a far more effective stopper than a smaller lighter one no matter how it's constructed to mushroom at higher velocity.

In our CCDW class the instructor said your first words to the police about why you fired was "I feared for my life"...or words to that effect.  Don't say you were trying to protect your kids (even if you were) or that you were trying to stop a criminal act from occurring...you tell them "you feared for your life".  Anything else can be construed in several ways by the cops (most of them bad).

I alternate between my Sig 9mm and my 1911 right now as a carry gun.  I have no doubt the Sig V Crown or Federal HST I have in my .45 will stop just about anything coming at me.  But there is something to be said about having double the ammo capacity in that Sig.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2018, 03:13:50 pm »
If you're a lady with a concealed carry license, they can be lighter and physically smaller to fit better in a purse.

Same argument can be made for a Smaller guy who needs to pack it under street clothes without being stopped, frisked, and held up for paperwork by every badge on the street.

But they are Far from ideal and I wouldn't trust my life to anything pushing a lightweight 124 grain bullet at Any velocity.

Get that pill moving fast enough to compensate for its light weight and you've got over penetration to deal with. Shoot your attackers And someone behind them with the same shot. No thanks.

Also the Hydrostatic shock to consider.

A .45 cal bullet is going to set up hydrostatic shock waves in living tissue that are All out of proportion to the much smaller waves a 9mm will. Inflict a lot more upset/damage, farther reaching shock wave, to more tissue and organs surrounding the bullet path.

That is a Huge difference in stopping power.

If, God Forbid, some ghoul Forces you to shoot them, you are going to have to answer some very specific questions after the fact.

Saying you intended to kill them is about the Worst possible answer to any of them.

Your Intent, was to stop them from killing or crippling you, or you can very quickly find yourself in a world of legal trouble. If they die as a result of it, that decision was Their's, not yours.

A bigger diameter, heavier, slower bullet is a far more effective stopper than a smaller lighter one no matter how it's constructed to mushroom at higher velocity.

If you hit your target.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2018, 03:15:48 pm »
If you hit your target.

Good point.  Doesn't matter what the caliber is if you can't hit what you're aiming at.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2018, 03:18:49 pm »
If you're a lady with a concealed carry license, they can be lighter and physically smaller to fit better in a purse.

Same argument can be made for a Smaller guy who needs to pack it under street clothes without being stopped, frisked, and held up for paperwork by every badge on the street.

But they are Far from ideal and I wouldn't trust my life to anything pushing a lightweight 124 grain bullet at Any velocity.

Get that pill moving fast enough to compensate for its light weight and you've got over penetration to deal with. Shoot your attackers And someone behind them with the same shot. No thanks.

Also the Hydrostatic shock to consider.

A .45 cal bullet is going to set up hydrostatic shock waves in living tissue that are All out of proportion to the much smaller waves a 9mm will. Inflict a lot more upset/damage, farther reaching shock wave, to more tissue and organs surrounding the bullet path.

That is a Huge difference in stopping power.

If, God Forbid, some ghoul Forces you to shoot them, you are going to have to answer some very specific questions after the fact.

Saying you intended to kill them is about the Worst possible answer to any of them.

Your Intent, was to stop them from killing or crippling you, or you can very quickly find yourself in a world of legal trouble. If they die as a result of it, that decision was Their's, not yours.

A bigger diameter, heavier, slower bullet is a far more effective stopper than a smaller lighter one no matter how it's constructed to mushroom at higher velocity.

@To-Whose-Benefit?

You might be interested in reading this.

https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/guns/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round/

And here is more good information.

http://chuckhawks.com/handgun_stopping_power.htm
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2018, 03:20:28 pm »
...hmmm... I found that my .45 is easier to conceal, but I'm more familiar and comfortable with my .9mm.  I realize there's a difference in stopping power, but didn't realize that the .9mm would be so less effective.
@libertybele

It isn't!  Read the stuff I posted in the post below yours.

For whatever it's worth to you, I own several handguns including a couple in .45ACP caliber.  My daily carry gun is a Springfield XDS 3.3 in 9mm.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 03:22:31 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline txradioguy

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2018, 03:21:48 pm »
...hmmm... I found that my .45 is easier to conceal, but I'm more familiar and comfortable with my .9mm.  I realize there's a difference in stopping power, but didn't realize that the .9mm would be so less effective.

Ammo manufacturers have improved the 9mm cartridge from the days when it had it's bad reputation....especially in the defensive round area.

But there's always going to be a difference in stopping power based on the amount of force the bullet has when it hits the target.  Barrel length also comes into place with velocity too.  Longer barrel more velocity the bullet has when it leaves the gun.

Some of your magnum rounds are still going to hit you like a Kenworth doing 85 but the guns aren't well designed for concealed or every day carry (despite what my wife thinks LOL!).
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline libertybele

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2018, 03:24:08 pm »
Thanks for all the information/opinions ... I have both .45 and .9mm - my .45 is easier to conceal than my .9mm, but I am more familiar and comfortable with .9mm.  Looks like  I need to take time and get more practice with the .45.
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Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2018, 03:29:12 pm »
Thanks for all the information/opinions ... I have both .45 and .9mm - my .45 is easier to conceal than my .9mm, but I am more familiar and comfortable with .9mm.  Looks like  I need to take time and get more practice with the .45.

@libertybele

Practice is always good.  I love my range time. 

If you're looking for a concealable 9mm with plenty of ammo capacity...Sig Sauer just released the P365.  It's the size and width of an M&P Shield or a Glock 43...but with either a 10+1 or 12+1 capacity.  Standard night sights and on the street is going for $499.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 03:29:35 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline libertybele

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2018, 03:30:12 pm »
@libertybele

It isn't!  Read the stuff I posted in the post below yours.

For whatever it's worth to you, I own several handguns including a couple in .45ACP caliber.  My daily carry gun is a Springfield XDS 3.3 in 9mm.

Ok.  Thank you.  I have practiced more with my 9mm than with the .45.  My concern is in practice the .45 is a lot for me to handle and the 9mm I can handle smoothly and am confident, so I went back to carrying my .9mm
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline libertybele

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2018, 03:31:42 pm »
@libertybele

Practice is always good.  I love my range time. 

If you're looking for a concealable 9mm with plenty of ammo capacity...Sig Sauer just released the P365.  It's the size and width of an M&P Shield or a Glock 43...but with either a 10+1 or 12+1 capacity.  Standard night sights and on the street is going for $499.

I saw that about the Sig; I'll take a look next gun show.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2018, 03:32:03 pm »
...hmmm... I found that my .45 is easier to conceal, but I'm more familiar and comfortable with my .9mm.  I realize there's a difference in stopping power, but didn't realize that the .9mm would be so less effective.

@libertybele
The best study I've seen was completed by the Texas Dept of Public Safety.  They performed testing as part of the selection process for the Texas Highway Patrol carry firearm.  I can't find the study online any more.

A lot depends on the type of ammo used, but in general they tested the below cartridges could stop a person with one shot.   The tests were performed using ballistic gelatin.   Real life has a ton of variables and no single caliber is best in every situation.   For example a 9mm will penetrate a car door better then a .45 whereas a 9mm will tend to bounce off a windshield when a .45 will go thru it.   


From memory so these might be off.   If you google 'one shot stop' you will find a number of sources.   Some try to use historical data to determine stopping power but IMO there are simply too many variables.   Shot placement is key.

.44 - ~93% I think
.357  - 88%
.357 sig - 88%
.45 ACP - 87%
9mm - 68%  (approx)
.32 - 54%
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Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2018, 03:32:11 pm »
Thanks for all the information/opinions ... I have both .45 and .9mm - my .45 is easier to conceal than my .9mm, but I am more familiar and comfortable with .9mm.  Looks like  I need to take time and get more practice with the .45.

If your 9mm has a barrel shorter than 4" your choice of ammo is critical!

Watch some of the testing videos you can find at the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=9mm+short+barrel+ammo+test

Or just take my word for it and use only Federal HST 124s in that weapon.

My CZ75B, which has a 4.4" barrel is loaded with Speer Gold Dot124s
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 03:36:31 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline txradioguy

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2018, 03:36:36 pm »
@libertybele
The best study I've seen was completed by the Texas Dept of Public Safety.  They performed testing as part of the selection process for the Texas Highway Patrol carry firearm.  I can't find the study online any more.

A lot depends on the type of ammo used, but in general they tested the below cartridges could stop a person with one shot.   The tests were performed using ballistic gelatin.   Real life has a ton of variables and no single caliber is best in every situation.   For example a 9mm will penetrate a car door better then a .45 whereas a 9mm will tend to bounce off a windshield when a .45 will go thru it.   


From memory so these might be off.   If you google 'one shot stop' you will find a number of sources.   Some try to use historical data to determine stopping power but IMO there are simply too many variables.   Shot placement is key.

.44 - ~93% I think
.357  - 88%
.357 sig - 88%
.45 ACP - 87%
9mm - 68%  (approx)
.32 - 54%

Up until a couple years ago if memory serves the DPS standard issue firearm was chambered in .357 Sig.  I've fired that round in a Glock 27 with a drop in barrel.  Shoots really flat.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2018, 03:40:24 pm »
@Bigun
Thanks for the links.

As for the 1st one, the FBI's opinions, they're a crock.

In almost all cases LEOs carry what their Superiors say they can carry, so naturally this article is going to be Dept Policy over substance.

I'll get to the 2nd one later. Got too much other stuff needing doing today to go through even that FBI pantload line by line at the moment.
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Vol 3 opens with the rigged murder trial of the villain in a Viking Court under Viking law to set the stage for the hero's own murder trial.

http://wulfanson.blogspot.com

Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2018, 03:41:41 pm »
Up until a couple years ago if memory serves the DPS standard issue firearm was chambered in .357 Sig.  I've fired that round in a Glock 27 with a drop in barrel.  Shoots really flat.

Yes they selected the .357sig from this study.  its rating might have been slightly lower then the .45acp.   As was the .40cal but Im going from memory.   As I recall they selected the recoil as a compromise between the lower recoil of a 9mm but higher stopping power.   A lot of departments seem to use the .40 for this same reason.   I carry a .40 but like my .45s better.

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2018, 03:48:23 pm »
@Bigun
Thanks for the links.

As for the 1st one, the FBI's opinions, they're a crock.

In almost all cases LEOs carry what their Superiors say they can carry, so naturally this article is going to be Dept Policy over substance.

I'll get to the 2nd one later. Got too much other stuff needing doing today to go through even that FBI pantload line by line at the moment.

They are opinions backed up by tons of actual testing but in the end it's still a matter of personal choice.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2018, 03:57:06 pm »
They are opinions backed up by tons of actual testing but in the end it's still a matter of personal choice.

@Bigun
Actual testing colored by PC.   This quote from the FBI article was informative "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”"

Im not a big guy but have no problem with the .45.   I shooter quarter size groupings at 7 yds and about 3 inch groupings at 25.  Of course thats paper targets.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: House Passes Bill Authorizing CMP Sale of Army Surplus 1911 Pistols
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2018, 04:01:19 pm »
@Bigun
Actual testing colored by PC.   This quote from the FBI article was informative "The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”"

Im not a big guy but have no problem with the .45.   I shooter quarter size groupings at 7 yds and about 3 inch groupings at 25.  Of course thats paper targets.

Yes ! However I was not talking about accuracy. I was talking about dependable bullet expansion and the actual energy delivered inside a human body having been delivered through several layers of clothing.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 04:03:25 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien