Author Topic: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay  (Read 876 times)

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rangerrebew

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Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
By: Leo Shane III, July 18, 2017

WASHINGTON — Questions about the science behind gender dysphoria prompted the Pentagon’s six-month delay in a new policy allowing the enlistment of transgender individuals into the military, the Joint Chiefs vice chairman told senators on Tuesday.

But outside advocates labeled that statement “willful ignorance” about the condition and a deliberate political attempt to slow down the process of allowing transgender recruits access into the ranks.

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/selva-transgender-science-senate-policy-delay
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 08:20:56 am by rangerrebew »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 11:27:27 am »
I was born with flat feet. No arch in my metatarsal arch. Pool table flat. My feet pull suction on a smooth wet floor when I walk. It hasn't stopped me from hiking, climbing, and a huge number of activities, and I still don't have any foot problems today (over six decades later), but it did stop me from one thing. Even going and talking to a recruiter, because I was told I would have been refused.

My friends enlisted, one became a Sargent Major in the USMC, another a SEAL, others I lost track of after H.S. but at least two went into the navy and served at sea. I had to sate my inner adrenaline junkie rock climbing, spelunking, hiking, driving fast, working in the oil patch, and riding motorcycles, among other things.

The Armed forces would not take me in, even though I didn't really acknowledge any problem with my feet being flat (except that thing about driving steel shanks out of the bottom of boots). Spending 12 hours or more on my feet wasn't so abnormal, I was known to pick up 250-300 lbs and walk off with it, but nope, the military wasn't interested. It didn't matter that I did not (and still don't) acknowledge any problem with my feet, which, by virtue of having been born that way, 'identify' as perfectly normal feet, and have since I can remember.

The Armed forces would not pay to 'correct' my flat feet surgically so I could join up. It simply didn't work in the calculations or calculus of the military budget to pay for the surgery for a few people with flat feet to join up at the cost to fully equip an infantry squad each, when there were plenty of people out there who could pass the physical.

Now, this is another issue, albeit likely not so much a physical one, but I have to ask who these people are that are so essential to the defense of these United States that we have to pay for the gender reassignment surgery of anyone so they can be in the armed forces? Is there some strategic genius, some tactical supersoldier so indispensable that we will lose all future conflicts without them?

I think we all know the answer to that. You don't get to be George Patton while dithering over whether you should sit or stand, if you get my drift.

The job of the military is to be the enforcement arm of our civil government when it comes to foreign policy, and to defend our nation against attack, whatever projection of (or use of) force that may require. That requires people who can step into the training regimens without need for major physical modification and proceed to be trained and to perform the mission they are tasked with. Once in, if they are injured, part of the deal is to repair those injuries as much as possible, for a return to duty if possible, a disability pension if not.

If it is to the benefit of the military to spend a few hundred dollars on lasik rather than a half million to train another pilot, that is a decision made at command levels, but one which just makes good, sound, fiscal sense.

But for a raw recruit to enter the service in anticipation of having major surgery to correct something they personally see as a defect is not part of the defense mission. If they perceive that defect as so serious as to affect their performance without that surgery they should save everyone the trouble of telling them 'Thank you for your interest, but no." If you really want to serve your country, to defend it, to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, consider saving the cost of your surgery that would have come out of the military budget for the warfighters out there to use when and where we really need it, and find an alternate means of financing your elective surgery.

There are other ways to serve your country; sometimes that is best done by standing down. 

« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:32:31 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 02:26:57 pm »
I was born with flat feet. No arch in my metatarsal arch. Pool table flat. My feet pull suction on a smooth wet floor when I walk. It hasn't stopped me from hiking, climbing, and a huge number of activities, and I still don't have any foot problems today (over six decades later), but it did stop me from one thing. Even going and talking to a recruiter, because I was told I would have been refused.

My friends enlisted, one became a Sargent Major in the USMC, another a SEAL, others I lost track of after H.S. but at least two went into the navy and served at sea. I had to sate my inner adrenaline junkie rock climbing, spelunking, hiking, driving fast, working in the oil patch, and riding motorcycles, among other things.

The Armed forces would not take me in, even though I didn't really acknowledge any problem with my feet being flat (except that thing about driving steel shanks out of the bottom of boots). Spending 12 hours or more on my feet wasn't so abnormal, I was known to pick up 250-300 lbs and walk off with it, but nope, the military wasn't interested. It didn't matter that I did not (and still don't) acknowledge any problem with my feet, which, by virtue of having been born that way, 'identify' as perfectly normal feet, and have since I can remember.

The Armed forces would not pay to 'correct' my flat feet surgically so I could join up. It simply didn't work in the calculations or calculus of the military budget to pay for the surgery for a few people with flat feet to join up at the cost to fully equip an infantry squad each, when there were plenty of people out there who could pass the physical.

Now, this is another issue, albeit likely not so much a physical one, but I have to ask who these people are that are so essential to the defense of these United States that we have to pay for the gender reassignment surgery of anyone so they can be in the armed forces? Is there some strategic genius, some tactical supersoldier so indispensable that we will lose all future conflicts without them?

I think we all know the answer to that. You don't get to be George Patton while dithering over whether you should sit or stand, if you get my drift.

The job of the military is to be the enforcement arm of our civil government when it comes to foreign policy, and to defend our nation against attack, whatever projection of (or use of) force that may require. That requires people who can step into the training regimens without need for major physical modification and proceed to be trained and to perform the mission they are tasked with. Once in, if they are injured, part of the deal is to repair those injuries as much as possible, for a return to duty if possible, a disability pension if not.

If it is to the benefit of the military to spend a few hundred dollars on lasik rather than a half million to train another pilot, that is a decision made at command levels, but one which just makes good, sound, fiscal sense.

But for a raw recruit to enter the service in anticipation of having major surgery to correct something they personally see as a defect is not part of the defense mission. If they perceive that defect as so serious as to affect their performance without that surgery they should save everyone the trouble of telling them 'Thank you for your interest, but no." If you really want to serve your country, to defend it, to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, consider saving the cost of your surgery that would have come out of the military budget for the warfighters out there to use when and where we really need it, and find an alternate means of financing your elective surgery.

There are other ways to serve your country; sometimes that is best done by standing down.

Damn -- that's extraordinarily well-written.  You laid out the best possible argument in the fewest possible words.  You ought to see if you can get that out as a letter to the editor or something.

@Smokin Joe

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 04:03:37 pm »
Damn -- that's extraordinarily well-written.  You laid out the best possible argument in the fewest possible words.  You ought to see if you can get that out as a letter to the editor or something.

@Smokin Joe
Thanks, Bill!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 04:32:54 pm »
I was born with flat feet.

Me too, but they drafted me and I served.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 04:54:41 pm »
Me too, but they drafted me and I served.
Nixon ended the draft before my number came up. I had a chance to go to college and took it. I used that education to find oil.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 05:36:03 pm »
Me too, but they drafted me and I served.

The difference is that was the needs of the service versus the needs of the individual.  When you need large scale conscription, you lower standards and/or issue waivers.  When you don't, you raise standards and issue fewer waivers.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 05:50:40 pm »
The difference is that was the needs of the service versus the needs of the individual.  When you need large scale conscription, you lower standards and/or issue waivers.  When you don't, you raise standards and issue fewer waivers.
My attitude about my country has probably been colored by having been drafted while married with a 6 month old baby girl.

An older cousin of mine, eldest son of an Army career officer, had recently gone to Canada rather than be drafted (he never was).

Things were very serious during the Vietnam era. When people rant about "oligarchy" and "militants," I recall riots in major cities, Kent State, etc.

And I recall servicemen that were abused in public. Spitting on them, for example. Anybody who denies this, is a liar of misinformed.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 07:12:15 pm »
My attitude about my country has probably been colored by having been drafted while married with a 6 month old baby girl.

An older cousin of mine, eldest son of an Army career officer, had recently gone to Canada rather than be drafted (he never was).

Things were very serious during the Vietnam era. When people rant about "oligarchy" and "militants," I recall riots in major cities, Kent State, etc.

And I recall servicemen that were abused in public. Spitting on them, for example. Anybody who denies this, is a liar of misinformed.
One of my college roommates was fresh out of the Army. We got along great. I didn't have long hair, was never a 'hippie' or doper and many of my older friends had served. Nothing but respect, ever. I knew brotherhood from having been a Volunteer Firefighter, discipline from that command hierarchy, and teamwork because your life depended on it. Many of the guys in the Department were vets, too. If any of us had caught someone spitting on a serviceman coming home from Vietnam or any other duty we would have kicked their ass on the spot. I heard crap about elsewhere, and I'd believe it out of some of those places and people, but we were a tight knit and small community and didn't tolerate that sort of disrespect.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 07:19:58 pm »
@Smokin Joe My feet do that suction cup thing also.   Never run across anyone else whose did.   888high58888

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2017, 07:42:18 pm »
@Smokin Joe My feet do that suction cup thing also.   Never run across anyone else whose did.   888high58888
Yeah, it was pretty odd when I first felt/heard it.  :laugh:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Oceander

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Re: Top general blames unclear science for transgender troops delay
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2017, 09:27:42 pm »
I was born with flat feet. No arch in my metatarsal arch. Pool table flat. My feet pull suction on a smooth wet floor when I walk. It hasn't stopped me from hiking, climbing, and a huge number of activities, and I still don't have any foot problems today (over six decades later), but it did stop me from one thing. Even going and talking to a recruiter, because I was told I would have been refused.

My friends enlisted, one became a Sargent Major in the USMC, another a SEAL, others I lost track of after H.S. but at least two went into the navy and served at sea. I had to sate my inner adrenaline junkie rock climbing, spelunking, hiking, driving fast, working in the oil patch, and riding motorcycles, among other things.

The Armed forces would not take me in, even though I didn't really acknowledge any problem with my feet being flat (except that thing about driving steel shanks out of the bottom of boots). Spending 12 hours or more on my feet wasn't so abnormal, I was known to pick up 250-300 lbs and walk off with it, but nope, the military wasn't interested. It didn't matter that I did not (and still don't) acknowledge any problem with my feet, which, by virtue of having been born that way, 'identify' as perfectly normal feet, and have since I can remember.

The Armed forces would not pay to 'correct' my flat feet surgically so I could join up. It simply didn't work in the calculations or calculus of the military budget to pay for the surgery for a few people with flat feet to join up at the cost to fully equip an infantry squad each, when there were plenty of people out there who could pass the physical.

Now, this is another issue, albeit likely not so much a physical one, but I have to ask who these people are that are so essential to the defense of these United States that we have to pay for the gender reassignment surgery of anyone so they can be in the armed forces? Is there some strategic genius, some tactical supersoldier so indispensable that we will lose all future conflicts without them?

I think we all know the answer to that. You don't get to be George Patton while dithering over whether you should sit or stand, if you get my drift.

The job of the military is to be the enforcement arm of our civil government when it comes to foreign policy, and to defend our nation against attack, whatever projection of (or use of) force that may require. That requires people who can step into the training regimens without need for major physical modification and proceed to be trained and to perform the mission they are tasked with. Once in, if they are injured, part of the deal is to repair those injuries as much as possible, for a return to duty if possible, a disability pension if not.

If it is to the benefit of the military to spend a few hundred dollars on lasik rather than a half million to train another pilot, that is a decision made at command levels, but one which just makes good, sound, fiscal sense.

But for a raw recruit to enter the service in anticipation of having major surgery to correct something they personally see as a defect is not part of the defense mission. If they perceive that defect as so serious as to affect their performance without that surgery they should save everyone the trouble of telling them 'Thank you for your interest, but no." If you really want to serve your country, to defend it, to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, consider saving the cost of your surgery that would have come out of the military budget for the warfighters out there to use when and where we really need it, and find an alternate means of financing your elective surgery.

There are other ways to serve your country; sometimes that is best done by standing down. 



Very well put!!!

:thumbsup: