Author Topic: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers  (Read 23713 times)

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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #300 on: July 12, 2017, 07:41:17 pm »
Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that government wouldn't interfere with Church matters (like marriage)

@Cripplecreek Thank you for clarifying that better than I did. Sometimes I have a mental block about those types (Danbury Baptists) of details.

Offline INVAR

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #301 on: July 12, 2017, 07:46:25 pm »
It is implicit in some of the posts here that the posters believe themselves to be superior morally to the ones they criticize.

That is the refuge of those who refuse to hear the Truth and actually hate and despise those who stand for the Truth that they reject.

@INVAR
Matthew 10:22 is not a license to treat everyone with disdain and alienate them.

Matthew 10:22's prophetic significance is illustrated on this very thread.

This is complete nonsense, repeated ad nauseum, by the Trump supporters, who seem to get in a tizzy because some of us are not pragmatic enough for their taste.  They actually hate that other people won't set aside some or all of their ideals so we can "win".  And when they don't get their way they get all pissy and start yammering on using words like self-righteous and superior morals.

Well stated and gets to the root of the entire political argument on this thread.

A majority in this country today cannot stand anyone who refuses to surrender truths and principles that they no longer have any use for and consider an obstacle and an evil.

The zeitgeist is no longer germane to Democrats and the Left.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Victoria33

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #302 on: July 12, 2017, 07:47:36 pm »
Watch who you accuse of lying, understand?  Especially when you seem to have problems with the truth yourself. First of all, you and I had some very friendly conversations for quite a while.  Then you started bucking for the position of forum scold/nanny, doing nothing but going from thread to thread and trying to tell people what they should and shouldn't post.  I had a problem with that, I told you so, and you didn't take it well.  At all.  If I were going to use the ignore button, I would use it for you, even though your posts aren't worth the click.  I don't use that feature, however.  But whether I do or don't isn't a damn bit of your business, so stop obsessing about it.  And for God's sake spare the rest of us your endless, miserable poor-me victim moaning.   Yeah, I know.  Too much to ask.  Three days from now you'll still be crying about our exchange here.
Go put a ribbon on your dog or something.
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Some of your posts deserve medals - this is one of them (put a ribbon on your dog or something).

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #303 on: July 12, 2017, 07:48:01 pm »
As a religious person you might be surprised to find I am a huge proponent of keeping church and state separate.  That includes tax breaks for churches as well.

The reason churches have always been exempt from taxation is precisely to prevent the state from influencing the Church - Which it has now got around with onerous duties to retain 503c status, or be taxed... whereupon the next step is to tax the crap out of those who do not bow to the state and retain 503c.

No, those 'tax breaks' are necessary... and should be reinstated as before.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #304 on: July 12, 2017, 07:51:46 pm »
@INVAR
Matthew 10:22 is not a license to treat everyone with disdain and alienate them.

@driftdiver

It is funny how people don't even recognize love anymore.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #305 on: July 12, 2017, 07:53:43 pm »
@driftdiver

It is funny how people don't even recognize love anymore.

"Love" these days means people accept the anything goes mentality that has taken over the country and anything less than that is automatically considered "hate".

The belief of love the sinner hate the sin is a foreign concept to too many people these days.
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #306 on: July 12, 2017, 07:54:27 pm »
@driftdiver

It is funny how people don't even recognize love anymore.

Love = not hurting anyones feelings

Do I need the tag?  No, I didn't think so either. ;)

Offline driftdiver

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #307 on: July 12, 2017, 07:54:30 pm »
That is the refuge of those who refuse to hear the Truth and actually hate and despise those who stand for the Truth that they reject.

Matthew 10:22's prophetic significance is illustrated on this very thread.



You do not own the "Truth".   I believe you are misusing Matthew 10:22.   Its not a license to be offensive or to be prideful.  Some people use it as a stick to pridefully hold themselves as better than others.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #308 on: July 12, 2017, 07:56:08 pm »
Your post is ambiguous.  To what does "they" refer?

The 'old' and 'new' testaments. They are not different. Yahweh does not change.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #309 on: July 12, 2017, 07:59:06 pm »
Next time a MOD tells me to stay on topic He/She can KMA!    :smokin:
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #310 on: July 12, 2017, 08:01:04 pm »
Next time a MOD tells me to stay on topic He/She can KMA!    :smokin:

All I know is when the conversation turns to religion, I RUN!!!!!!

Things get uglier, and things get said that can't be unsaid.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #311 on: July 12, 2017, 08:01:52 pm »
"Love" these days means people accept the anything goes mentality that has taken over the country and anything less than that is automatically considered "hate".

The belief of love the sinner hate the sin is a foreign concept to too many people these days.

No doubt. Admonishment is an act of love... Especially with eternal souls at stake.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #312 on: July 12, 2017, 08:02:29 pm »
"Love" these days means people accept the anything goes mentality that has taken over the country and anything less than that is automatically considered "hate".

The belief of love the sinner hate the sin is a foreign concept to too many people these days.

@txradioguy   @roamer_1

The insinuation being that you are showing love by telling people the right way.    Sometimes thats true.  Sometimes you're just being an ass. 

If you speak to people with love and grace then I would agree.   If you're using it as a stick to prove your superiority then I would disagree.   

Matthew 13 - Jesus used parables to help people understand rather then beat them into submission.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #313 on: July 12, 2017, 08:02:40 pm »
Love = not hurting anyones feelings

Do I need the tag?  No, I didn't think so either. ;)

That's right. :)

Offline driftdiver

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #314 on: July 12, 2017, 08:03:21 pm »
Next time a MOD tells me to stay on topic He/She can KMA!    :smokin:

@DCPatriot  :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

Thats the demon
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #315 on: July 12, 2017, 08:04:36 pm »
America's Separation of Church was based in part, on England's Civil War experiences, and the colonial American experience.

Precaution of Quakers, by Puritans, was only one example.

snip

"Persecution of Quakers in Colonial New England"

"Of all Protestant sects the Quakers went furthest in stripping off from Christianity its non-essential features of doctrine and ceremonial. Their ideal was not a theocracy but a separation between church and state. They would abolish all distinction between clergy and laity, and could not be coaxed or bullied into paying tithes. They also refused to render military service, or to take the oath of allegiance. In these ways they came at once into antagonism both with church and with state."

snip

http://www.worldspirituality.org/persecution-quakers.html
 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline driftdiver

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #316 on: July 12, 2017, 08:08:11 pm »
@driftdiver

It is funny how people don't even recognize love anymore.

@roamer_1
Love is not beating someone into submission.  Nor is it an effective way to open their mind or heart.  Instead it tends to harden most people against your message. 

This is one of the fundamental reasons so many traditional churches are losing members and will soon cease to operate.   There are other ways to communicate.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Emjay

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #317 on: July 12, 2017, 08:10:51 pm »
Evil will attack good no matter what good does.   That doesn't mean all conservatives are good or that all liberals are evil.  But evil has taken control of the liberal/democrat agenda and is calling the shots.

It totally has ...they have always been crazy but Trump has driven them stark, raving mad.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Online Hoodat

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #318 on: July 12, 2017, 08:11:07 pm »
Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that government wouldn't interfere with Church matters (like marriage)

And the Everson case which introduced the words of that letter into our judicial case record was a losing case for the secular extremists.  The direct result of Everson was that public school buses could be used to bus kids to Catholic schools.

Funny how the secularists and humanists fail to mention that each time those words are brought up.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #319 on: July 12, 2017, 08:12:18 pm »

"Persecution of Quakers in Colonial New England"

In my genealogical circles, one of my colleagues calls my West MA 17th century puritans ancestors the "American Taliban"

Probably not far from the truth.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #320 on: July 12, 2017, 08:13:40 pm »
@roamer_1
Love is not beating someone into submission.  Nor is it an effective way to open their mind or heart.  Instead it tends to harden most people against your message. 

This is one of the fundamental reasons so many traditional churches are losing members and will soon cease to operate.   There are other ways to communicate.

"There are other ways to communicate."

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #321 on: July 12, 2017, 08:14:37 pm »
The insinuation being that you are showing love by telling people the right way.   

There is no insinuation, It should be well known here that I (and others) are disciples of Yeshua Ha' Mashiach

Quote
Sometimes thats true.  Sometimes you're just being an ass. 

Admonishment sucks... There is no way to admonish folks without being an ass, according to them.

Quote
If you speak to people with love and grace then I would agree.   If you're using it as a stick to prove your superiority then I would disagree. 

I have done no such thing, nor has my brother @txradioguy , nor even my brother @INVAR

Quote
Matthew 13 - Jesus used parables to help people understand rather then beat them into submission.

No one is beating anyone.

@driftdiver

Offline Emjay

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #322 on: July 12, 2017, 08:15:08 pm »
This is complete nonsense, repeated ad nauseum, by the Trump supporters, who seem to get in a tizzy because some of us are not pragmatic enough for their taste.  They actually hate that other people won't set aside some or all of their ideals so we can "win".  And when they don't get their way they get all pissy and start yammering on using words like self-righteous and superior morals.


You incorrectly read what I wrote.

Or, you incorrectly wrote what I read.  Why is this suddenly about Trump supporters?  No one is asking you to put away your ideals.  Ideals are good.  Unless one is forcing one's own ideals on other people.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Online Hoodat

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #323 on: July 12, 2017, 08:16:39 pm »
I believe the 1st amendment intended to create space between spiritual, religious and churches life, and civil life.

Perhaps you should try reading what it actually says.  The ONLY thing Amendment I does is place limitations on the legislative branch of the Federal government.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Foolishness of Never Trumpers
« Reply #324 on: July 12, 2017, 08:18:05 pm »
In my genealogical circles, one of my colleagues calls my West MA 17th century puritans ancestors the "American Taliban"

Probably not far from the truth.

I have ancestors, on both sides of many conflicts throughout our nation's history. One such gxxx grandfather, was one "Rev. Hatevil Nutter," truly a Puritan zealot, that had Quakers whipped.

"Hatevil Nutter Was A Cruel Religious Hypocrite

Hatevil Nutter had had enough. An elder in Puritan church in Dover, N.H., he objected to the way the three Quaker women “beset” Congregationalist minister John Reyner when he worshiped in public. He didn’t like the way they bedeviled the Puritan minister when he was at home. He believed their teachings were wrong and their methods pernicious.

For six weeks in 1662, the women had held meetings and services at various homes around town. The Quaker women, my 11th great grandfather cruelly reasoned, had the liberty to go elsewhere, but they failed to exercise that liberty. Instead, they tried to spread their beliefs in Dover, preaching against professional ministers, restrictions on individual conscience, and the established customs of church-ruled settlements. Something had to be done.

Nutter, who filled the pulpit on occasion, sprung into action. He helped to get Dover citizens to sign a petition “humbly craving relief against the spreading & the wicked errors of the Quakers among them.” According to a Quaker historian, Hatevil (pronounced just like you think, Hate Evil) stirred up crown magistrate Captain Richard Walderne to issue an order to the constables of surrounding jurisdictions.

A little background may be necessary. Many of the Puritans who settled in New England in the 1660s did not believe in a separate church and state. They fled Europe, in many cases, because they believed the Church of England had strayed from its basic principles. They refused to tolerate dissent.

Walderne’s order required the constables “in the King’s name” to take “these vagabond Quakers, Ann Coleman, Mary Tomkins, and Alice Ambrose,” tie them fast to a cart’s tail, and “whip their naked backs, not exceeding ten stripes apiece on each of the them, in each town; and so to convey them from constable to constable, till they are out of this jurisdiction.”

The medieval-style punishment was severe, even by Colonial standards. The order called for whippings in at least 11 towns. It would require travel over 80 miles in bitterly cold weather. The first stop was Dover, to which Nutter had come from England 30 years before. The women were seized on a frigid winter day by constables John and Thomas Roberts. George Bishop recorded the events:

“Deputy Waldrom caused these women to be stripped naked from the middle upwards, and tied to a cart, and after awhile cruelly whipped them, whilst the priest stood and looked and laughed at it.”

Hatevil thought it was a real laugh-riot as well, according to Sewell, another witness. “All this whipping of the Quaker women, by the Constables (in front of the meeting-house) was in the presence of one Hate-Evil Nutwell (Nutter), a Ruling Elder, who stirred up the Constables (John and Thomas Roberts) to this wicked action, and so proved that he bore a wrong name (Hate Evil).”

According to Sewell’s History of the Quakers, the women were carried next to Hampton, where the constable wanted to whip the women with their clothes on. But they said, “‘set us free, or do according to thine order.’ He then spoke to a woman to take off their clothes. But she said she would not for all the world. Why, said he, then I’ll do it myself…So he stripped them, and then stood trembling whip in hand, and so he did the execution.

“Then he carried them to Salisbury through the dirt and the snow half the leg deep; and here they were whipped again. Indeed, their bodies were so torn, that if Providence had not watched over them, they might have been in danger of their lives.”

Once the women got to Salisbury, one Walter Barefoot convinced the constable to swear him in as a deputy. He received the women and the warrant and put a stop to the persecution. Dr. Barefoot dressed their wounds and returned them to the Maine side of the Piscataqua River.

Barefoot had the support of the town’s people, who were guided by the influential Major Robert Pike, one of the leaders of the lower Merrimac valley. According to history books, Pike stood far in advance of his time. He advocated religious freedom and opposed ecclesiastical authority. He even courageously wrote to the court at Salem, objecting to the witchcraft trials.

Eventually, much to Nutter’s chagrin, the Quaker women returned to Dover and established a church. More than a third of Dover’s citizens eventually became Quakers.

The Nutter connection to the Thompson family comes through Grandmother Marie (Meanie) Elise Kruttschnitt’s grandfather, Frederick Manthano Pickering (1862-1945), who was born in Portland, Me. Intrepid family genealogist Sue Wolfe discovered the connection several years ago and documented it with a set of papers more than an inch thick.

Sue discovered that Hatevil was born in 1598, probably in Harlington, Bedford, England, and came to the United States in the mid 1630s. According to the history of Dover, N.H., he did not arrive with the first wave of immigrants in 1633. He probably showed up a little later. Public records show that in 1637 he bought a lot from one Captain Thomas Wiggin. Over the years, he received various land grants from the town.

Hatevil was part owner of a sawmill at Lamprey River, and he owned a ship yard on the shore of the Fore River. He helped organize the First Church in November 1638 and served in various official capacities during his lifetime.

“His house stood on the east side of High Street, about 15 or 20 rods from the north corner of the meeting house-lot,” reads the history of Dover. “An old pear tree stands (1923) in the hollow, which was part of the cellar.”

Nutter was by no means alone in his hatred of Quakers. Laws were passed during his time imposing fines on the master of any vessel who brought a Quaker into the colony. Quakers who managed to set foot in the Colonies were supposed to be sent immediately to a house of correction, where they would receive 20 stripes and be confined to hard labor.

A later act levied a 40-shilling fine against anyone who harbored a Quaker for one hour. After the first conviction, the offender, if a man, would lose one ear; and upon the third conviction, the other ear. Offending women would be whipped each time. After four convictions, offenders–men and women alike–would have their tongue bored through with a hot iron.

Many Quakers came to America to escape religious persecution in Europe. They found it in new forms once they arrived."

https://thompsongenealogy.com/2011/04/hatevil-nutter-was-a-cruel-religious-hypocrite/
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 08:28:04 pm by truth_seeker »
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