Author Topic: Do states have a right to flout 2A entitlements based on 10th amendment stipulations?  (Read 35962 times)

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Offline Doug Loss

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I support voluntary reciprocity (concealed carry; not open carry).   The conditions for reciprocity are to be worked out between the reciprocating states.

Then if I live in a state that requires no license of any sort to open carry, voluntary reciprocity should also apply.  But you refuse that.  There is no logic in your position.  Just because you don't want to allow all Americans their 2nd Amendment-protected rights doesn't mean those rights don't exist.  Your position is completely untenable.  It's a wonder that you keep insisting on it so adamantly.  Some emotional hangup, perhaps.
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Then if I live in a state that requires no license of any sort to open carry, voluntary reciprocity should also apply.  But you refuse that.  There is no logic in your position.  Just because you don't want to allow all Americans their 2nd Amendment-protected rights doesn't mean those rights don't exist.  Your position is completely untenable.  It's a wonder that you keep insisting on it so adamantly.  Some emotional hangup, perhaps.

He's stated many times he's all for Second Amendment rights, but he wants to be able to veto those rights in his community.  Just another case of NIMBY thinking.

He wouldn't like reciprocating the concealed carry rights for my state, we don't require any kind of permit.  That's why he dodged my question.

Edited to add:  I don't get his hangup about open carry.  Must be afraid of the looks of the scary things or something.  True definition of "Hoplophobe."
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 10:02:37 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline EC

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I'm still struggling with open carry in the public square not being a natural right. For most of the last 3000 years it's been not only a right but an obligation.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Like drivers licenses then?

How does it work with drivers licenses?   I recall when I moved from New Jersey to Pennsy,  I had a limited period of time to get a Pennsy drivers license.   I couldn't stay licensed in N.J. indefinitely.  But that was a decade ago so I don't remember the rules all that well.   
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How does it work with drivers licenses?   I recall when I moved from New Jersey to Pennsy,  I had a limited period of time to get a Pennsy drivers license.   I couldn't stay licensed in N.J. indefinitely.  But that was a decade ago so I don't remember the rules all that well.

All states recognize all other states' drivers licenses for purposes of tourism and other incidental travel.  I wasn't talking about what happens when people change residences, that's a different matter.  So, on subject, I don't need a permit to carry concealed in my state.  Should I be allowed to carry concealed in Philly without a permit, or don't you believe in reciprocity after all?
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Offline Jazzhead

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He wouldn't like reciprocating the concealed carry rights for my state, we don't require any kind of permit.  That's why he dodged my question.

What question did I dodge?   By voluntary reciprocity I simply mean I would support my state allowing those duly licensed or permitted to carry concealed in their state of residence to travel to my state and be able to conceal-carry without fear of arrest.  If a state didn't require a permit,  then my state could reject reciprocity.

  I oppose a federal law mandating reciprocity.   
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 10:09:59 pm by Jazzhead »
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What question did I dodge?   By voluntary reciprocity I simply mean I would support my state allowing those duly licensed or permitted to carry concealed in their state of residence to travel to my state and be able to conceal-carry without fear of arrest.  If a state didn't require a permit,  then my state could reject reciprocity.

  I oppose a federal law mandating reciprocity.   

Please see the post directly above the one you just posted.  And of course you oppose a federal law, you still want to keep people in Philly from having weapons.  Your irrational fear of open carry makes no sense to me.
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Offline bigheadfred

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Don't be ridiculous.  Open carry in the public square is not a natural right.

um um oy yo

The conservative mind embraces natural law.

The liberal mind tries to pervert natural law.

And THAT, THAT attempt at perversion Mr. Jazzhead, is ridiculous.
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Offline INVAR

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Disagree, fundamentally.   It's an individual right, meant to codify against infringement the natural right of self-defense of person and home.

As stupid and as ignorant an assertion as those who insist the Second Amendment exists for only the national guard or hunting purposes.

I could care less about the circumstances of the redcoats and the American revolution.

Of course you don't.  Like all Leftists, you embrace tyranny if it carries with it the color of law.

  We have elections and a Constitution now to combat tyranny in government.

Only imbeciles and ignoramuses actually believe that elections combat tyranny.  It is arms in the hands of the whole people that keep government from imposing an outright brutal tyranny as it's nature is wont to do.

Certainly the Framers understood what you refuse to comprehend or either willfully obscure - and I will go with the latter on that supposition.
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Offline Axeslinger

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Hey @Jazzhead...
What exactly does that B in RKBA stand for?  You don't support open carry and you only support those "duly licensed or permitted to carry concealed".  So like every other lib you don't believe it's a natural right...you only support our God given natural right to self defense when our local government sees fit to grant it to us?  Or in our own homes. 

Ok I've got it now...you're just another in a long line who thinks he knows better than me how best to protect myself and my family:  and that is whatever way you happen to like.  You're just another tin pot dictator who would LOVE the chance to exert your views on everyone else.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline INVAR

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Hey @Jazzhead...
What exactly does that B in RKBA stand for?  You don't support open carry and you only support those "duly licensed or permitted to carry concealed".  So like every other lib you don't believe it's a natural right...you only support our God given natural right to self defense when our local government sees fit to grant it to us?  Or in our own homes. 

Ok I've got it now...you're just another in a long line who thinks he knows better than me how best to protect myself and my family:  and that is whatever way you happen to like.  You're just another tin pot dictator who would LOVE the chance to exert your views on everyone else.


Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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As stupid and as ignorant an assertion as those who insist the Second Amendment exists for only the national guard or hunting purposes.

Of course you don't.  Like all Leftists, you embrace tyranny if it carries with it the color of law.

Only imbeciles and ignoramuses actually believe that elections combat tyranny.  It is arms in the hands of the whole people that keep government from imposing an outright brutal tyranny as it's nature is wont to do.

Certainly the Framers understood what you refuse to comprehend or either willfully obscure - and I will go with the latter on that supposition.

Mel Gibson character in The Patriot:  "How am I better off having 3,000 tyrants 1 mile from me, than having 1 tyrant 3,000 miles away?"
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Disagree, fundamentally.   It's an individual right, meant to codify against infringement the natural right of self-defense of person and home.    See Heller.  I could care less about the circumstances of the redcoats and the American revolution.  We have elections and a Constitution now to combat tyranny in government.  I understand your opinion is different.
The reason for the codification of the Right is contained in The Federalist Papers:

 That the people, by virtue of numbers and with their own arms be able to resist the depredations of any standing army gone rogue and seeking to supplant the lawful civil government, whether that be a State Army (Militia, as in common usage at the time), or the Federal one, should that need arise, or any other threat to Liberty, from within or without.

It is that armed populace which by sheer force of numbers, even lacking in martial skills, which regulates (controls) the Militia (Army), that advances the security of a Free State (keeps it Free as opposed to a military governorship or other tyranny, which the colonists had recently overthrown), and it is the Right of the People for that reason, not to be infringed.

The language is plain enough, more plain if you have read the written thoughts of those who wrote the Constitution and the concerns raised in the discussion of the time.
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Offline INVAR

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The language is plain enough, more plain if you have read the written thoughts of those who wrote the Constitution and the concerns raised in the discussion of the time.

JH don't care about the plain language of the Founders.  For him, like all liberals - he will tout whatever the left-leaning courts have to say as primacy over whatever the Founders themselves plainly wrote, and rail against what the Courts have to say when it upholds the Constitution and inhibits his championed agendas (homosexuality and abortion).

When you are dealing with a liberal agent provocateur who says he could care less about the circumstances of the redcoats and the American revolution, you are not dealing with someone whose definition of tyranny matches ours or our forbears.  His definition of tyranny is you and me and the rights we hold sacred that he hates and wants regulated, abolished and infringed.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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JH don't care about the plain language of the Founders.  For him, like all liberals - he will tout whatever the left-leaning courts have to say as primacy over whatever the Founders themselves plainly wrote, and rail against what the Courts have to say when it upholds the Constitution and inhibits his championed agendas (homosexuality and abortion).

When you are dealing with a liberal agent provocateur who says he could care less about the circumstances of the redcoats and the American revolution, you are not dealing with someone whose definition of tyranny matches ours or our forbears.  His definition of tyranny is you and me and the rights we hold sacred that he hates and wants regulated, abolished and infringed.
Oh, I don't expect to change that mind. But, in good conscience, I still can't leave rhetorical minefields laying around for the unwary to stumble upon without at least putting up some wire and signs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Disagree, fundamentally.  It's an individual right, meant to codify against infringement the natural right of self-defense of person and home. ....  I could care less about the circumstances of the redcoats and the American revolution.  We have elections and a Constitution now to combat tyranny in government.  I understand your opinion is different.

The 2nd amendment itself states it differently.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Quote
See Heller

I have.  It doesn't try to limit the 2nd amendment to only home and personal protection.  It made it the point that home and personal protection was part of it, not only it.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER (No. 07-290)
478 F. 3d 370, affirmed.
Justice Scalia, Opinion of the Court
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

...The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose. The Amendment could be rephrased, “Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” See J. Tiffany, A Treatise on Government and Constitutional Law §585, p. 394 (1867); Brief for Professors of Linguistics and English as Amici Curiae 3 (hereinafter Linguists’ Brief). Although this structure of the Second Amendment is unique in our Constitution, other legal documents of the founding era, particularly individual-rights provisions of state constitutions, commonly included a prefatory statement of purpose. See generally Volokh, The Commonplace Second Amendment , 73 N. Y. U. L. Rev. 793, 814–821 (1998).

    Logic demands that there be a link between the stated purpose and the command. The Second Amendment would be nonsensical if it read, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to petition for redress of grievances shall not be infringed.” That requirement of logical connection may cause a prefatory clause to resolve an ambiguity in the operative clause (“The separation of church and state being an important objective, the teachings of canons shall have no place in our jurisprudence.” The preface makes clear that the operative clause refers not to canons of interpretation but to clergymen.) But apart from that clarifying function, a prefatory clause does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause. See F. Dwarris, A General Treatise on Statutes 268–269 (P. Potter ed. 1871) (hereinafter Dwarris); T. Sedgwick, The Interpretation and Construction of Statutory and Constitutional Law 42–45 (2d ed. 1874).3 “ ‘It is nothing unusual in acts … for the enacting part to go beyond the preamble; the remedy often extends beyond the particular act or mischief which first suggested the necessity of the law.’ ” J. Bishop, Commentaries on Written Laws and Their Interpretation §51, p. 49 (1882) (quoting Rex v. Marks, 3 East, 157, 165 (K. B. 1802)). Therefore, while we will begin our textual analysis with the operative clause, we will return to the prefatory clause to ensure that our reading of the operative clause is consistent with the announced purpose.

” We move now from the holder of the right—“the people”—to the substance of the right: “to keep and bear Arms.”

    Before addressing the verbs “keep” and “bear,” we interpret their object: “Arms.” The 18th-century meaning is no different from the meaning today. The 1773 edition of Samuel Johnson’s dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.” 1 Dictionary of the English Language 107 (4th ed.) (hereinafter Johnson). Timothy Cunningham’s important 1771 legal dictionary defined “arms” as “any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another.” 1 A New and Complete Law Dictionary (1771); see also N. Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language (1828) (reprinted 1989) (hereinafter Webster) (similar).

    The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity. For instance, Cunningham’s legal dictionary gave as an example of usage: “Servants and labourers shall use bows and arrows on Sundays, &c. and not bear other arms.” See also, e.g., An Act for the trial of Negroes, 1797 Del. Laws ch. XLIII, §6, p. 104, in 1 First Laws of the State of Delaware 102, 104 (J. Cushing ed. 1981 (pt. 1)); see generally State v. Duke, 42Tex. 455, 458 (1874) (citing decisions of state courts construing “arms”). Although one founding-era thesaurus limited “arms” (as opposed to “weapons”) to “instruments of offence generally made use of in war,” even that source stated that all firearms constituted “arms.” 1 J. Trusler, The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in the English Language37 (1794) (emphasis added).

    Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment . We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997) , and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001) , the Second Amendment extends, prima facie,to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

    We turn to the phrases “keep arms” and “bear arms.” Johnson defined “keep” as, most relevantly, “[t]o retain; not to lose,” and “[t]o have in custody.” Johnson 1095. Webster defined it as “[t]o hold; to retain in one’s power or possession.” No party has apprised us of an idiomatic meaning of “keep Arms.” Thus, the most natural reading of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have weapons.”

    The phrase “keep arms” was not prevalent in the written documents of the founding period that we have found, but there are a few examples, all of which favor viewing the right to “keep Arms” as an individual right unconnected with militia service. William Blackstone, for example, wrote that Catholics convicted of not attending service in the Church of England suffered certain penalties, one of which was that they were not permitted to “keep arms in their houses.” 4 Commentaries on the Laws of England 55 (1769) (hereinafter Blackstone); see also 1 W. & M., c. 15, §4, in 3 Eng. Stat. at Large 422 (1689) (“[N]o Papist … shall or may have or keep in his House … any Arms … ”); 1 Hawkins, Treatise on the Pleas of the Crown 26 (1771) (similar). Petitioners point to militia laws of the founding period that required militia members to “keep” arms in connection with militia service, and they conclude from this that the phrase “keep Arms” has a militia-related connotation. See Brief for Petitioners 16–17 (citing laws of Delaware, New Jersey, and Virginia). This is rather like saying that, since there are many statutes that authorize aggrieved employees to “file complaints” with federal agencies, the phrase “file complaints” has an employment-related connotation. “Keep arms” was simply a common way of referring to possessing arms, for militiamen and everyone else.7

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford). When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998) , in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, Justice Ginsburg wrote that “surely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment … indicates: ‘wear, bear, or carry … upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose … of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion) (quoting Black’s Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1998)). We think that Justice Ginsburg accurately captured the natural meaning of “bear arms.” Although the phrase implies that the carrying of the weapon is for the purpose of “offensive or defensive action,” it in no way connotes participation in a structured military organization....


DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER (No. 07-290)
478 F. 3d 370, affirmed.
Stevens, J., dissenting
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

 The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.

    Guns are used to hunt, for self-defense, to commit crimes, for sporting activities, and to perform military duties. The Second Amendment plainly does not protect the right to use a gun to rob a bank; it is equally clear that it does encompass the right to use weapons for certain military purposes. Whether it also protects the right to possess and use guns for nonmilitary purposes like hunting and personal self-defense is the question presented by this case. The text of the Amendment, its history, and our decision in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939) , provide a clear answer to that question.

    The Second Amendment was adopted to protect the right of the people of each of the several States to maintain a well-regulated militia. It was a response to concerns raised during the ratification of the Constitution that the power of Congress to disarm the state militias and create a national standing army posed an intolerable threat to the sovereignty of the several States. Neither the text of the Amendment nor the arguments advanced by its proponents evidenced the slightest interest in limiting any legislature’s authority to regulate private civilian uses of firearms. Specifically, there is no indication that the Framers of the Amendment intended to enshrine the common-law right of self-defense in the Constitution....

....  The preamble to the Second Amendment makes three important points. It identifies the preservation of the militia as the Amendment’s purpose; it explains that the militia is necessary to the security of a free State; and it recognizes that the militia must be “well regulated.” In all three respects it is comparable to provisions in several State Declarations of Rights that were adopted roughly contemporaneously with the Declaration of Independence.5 Those state provisions highlight the importance members of the founding generation attached to the maintenance of state militias; they also underscore the profound fear shared by many in that era of the dangers posed by standing armies.6 While the need for state militias has not been a matter of significant public interest for almost two centuries, that fact should not obscure the contemporary concerns that animated the Framers....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:13:58 pm by thackney »
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Offline thackney

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I oppose a federal law mandating reciprocity.

In this we agree.  The Federal Government has no authority to force one state to take on the laws of another.
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Offline Jazzhead

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In this we agree.  The Federal Government has no authority to force one state to take on the laws of another.

Thank you.   That is all I am saying.   It is Pennsylvania's choice whether and how to regulate open carry (or concealed carry, for that matter)  in the public square.   A federal requirement of reciprocity would implicate Pennsylvania's sovereignty.  A federal requirement of reciprocity would is not a conservative position.   Whatever the merits or mechanics of reciprocity, it must be voluntary.   
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Offline INVAR

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In this we agree.  The Federal Government has no authority to force one state to take on the laws of another.

Except when it comes to forcing every state to force every citizen to accept, celebrate, promote and acknowledge sexual perversion and access to abortion in Jazzy's twisted worldview.

Then he is not into voluntary reciprocity -  but penalization.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline thackney

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Except when it comes to forcing every state to force every citizen to accept, celebrate, promote and acknowledge sexual perversion and access to abortion in Jazzy's twisted worldview.

Then he is not into voluntary reciprocity -  but penalization.

And we agree, I believe, that the State Government does not have the authority to take away individual rights from the Constitution including amendments.

The disagreement, as I understand it, lies with the understanding of those individual rights, for multiple subjects.
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Offline INVAR

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Removed by Mod3  

Go call 'em.  Go ahead. 

In fact, why not first insist that the Mods ban me from this board and remove all the make-believe posts you insist I advocate violence against homosexuals?

I'm sure the owner and the Mods have a policy against the advocation of violence.  So make sure you petition them to look into my "twisted worldview".

Try that approach first and see what kind of response you get.

Complaining to mamma government to impose tyranny and silence opinions and ideas you hate is what people like you are known for, as the petty threatening tyrant you actually are.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:07:47 pm by MOD3 »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline MOD3

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@Jazzhead the quickest way to get shown the door at TBR is to threaten to drag management into legal issues with the law enforfcement over some heated rhetoric on the internet that you are partially responsible for causing.

@INVAR the second quickest way to get shown the door at TBR is to make threats that cause overly sensitive TBR members to threaten to call the FBI.

FFS people this is the internet and none of you have ever met each other on person.  You talk to each other from the safety of your keyboards and computer monitors in a way you'd never talk to each other face to face.

So how about we pretend like you're talking to each other face to face ok?

And in the event that neither one of you have the willpower to cool your jets on your own, I'll be more than happy to put each of your noses in the corner until you learn to play nice again.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:21:38 pm by MOD3 »

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Do states have a right to flout 2A entitlements based on 10th amendment stipulations?

No they don't have that right.

The 9th and 10th Amendments give the states power over those areas where the Federal government isn't specifically granted power.

The 2nd Amendment is very much an area where the Federal government has power to tell the states what they can and can't do.
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Offline Jazzhead

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May the record show that I had already removed my post before INVAR responded to it.  I had did so exactly for the reason you suggested, Mod3 -  I didn't want to drag the board or its ownership into controversy.     
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Offline INVAR

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@INVAR the second quickest way to get shown the door at TBR is to make threats that cause overly sensitive TBR members to threaten to call the FBI.


I would appreciate showing me which posts I made that are considered 'threats'.

Because if stating openly on a public forum what the actual intent and purpose of the Second Amendment is, and pointing out blatant hypocrisy on a stated position is considered a 'threat' then we have become more subjugated to the Leftists like Jazzhead than I even imagined.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775