Author Topic: Grenfell Tower inferno a 'disaster waiting to happen' as concerns are raised for safety of other buildings  (Read 1732 times)

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Online DB

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An inferno which engulfed a tower block, killing at least 12 in what could become one of the biggest fire tragedies in British history, was a "disaster waiting to happen", experts have said.
Fears were raised that green energy concerns were prioritised ahead of safety as it emerged that cladding used to make the building more sustainable could have accelerated the fire.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-inferno-disaster-waiting-happen-concerns-raised/

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Be warned, this is painful to read.

@Smokin Joe it looks like our speculation is pretty close to the truth.



Offline Smokin Joe

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Sustainability and cosmetics. Actually, @EC brought up the cosmetic aspect.
"Sustainability" is an ecowhacko Agenda 21 blanked excuse to make a mess of lots of things, not just buildings.

But I see this as the 'sustainability' equivalent of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire.

Maybe some good will come of it. Enough bad has.
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Offline driftdiver

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This will likely bring tears, it did me:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/people-just-waiting-fire-take-waiting-die/

Whoever made the decision for the residents to stay in their apartments should be forced to clear the bodies.  Then jailed for the rest of their life.
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Oceander

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Whoever made the decision for the residents to stay in their apartments should be forced to clear the bodies.  Then jailed for the rest of their life.

That is typical practice in large multi-story structures like big apartment buildings. 

Offline driftdiver

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That is typical practice in large multi-story structures like big apartment buildings.

Yes, in buildings which aren't clad in flammable plastics, have functioning sprinkler systems and don't use butane in their refrigerators it might make sense.
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Whoever made the decision for the residents to stay in their apartments should be forced to clear the bodies.  Then jailed for the rest of their life.

If the building wasn't wrapped in a torch that would probably the best thing to do. Especially with concrete floors separating levels. The single stairway was only about 10' by 10' all the way up in a single column (if I understand correctly). Once the fire doors are breached at a lower level the stairway is done. You would think people could make it to the roof and be rescued by helicopter. But so far I've not heard that happened at all.

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Yes, in buildings which aren't clad in flammable plastics, have functioning sprinkler systems and don't use butane in their refrigerators it might make sense.

Pretty insane. Not something I'd expect in London. India, sure.

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Sustainability and green living is an effort to make humans extinct so it looks they have scored a few hundred here. Congrats greens.

Oceander

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Yes, in buildings which aren't clad in flammable plastics, have functioning sprinkler systems and don't use butane in their refrigerators it might make sense.

No, it's standard practice in all big buildings.  The fact that it led to disaster in this instance has to do with those other factors, not with the standard practice that applies to all buildings. 

Offline driftdiver

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No, it's standard practice in all big buildings.  The fact that it led to disaster in this instance has to do with those other factors, not with the standard practice that applies to all buildings.

Isn't that what I said?
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Offline EC

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You would think people could make it to the roof and be rescued by helicopter. But so far I've not heard that happened at all.

Not a hope in hell for that, with the sort of tight updraft the fire was producing. With a fire that is mostly internal, sure. It's a tricky fly, but doable. Once it goes external though - the updraft would knock you out of the sky like a hammer.
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Not a hope in hell for that, with the sort of tight updraft the fire was producing. With a fire that is mostly internal, sure. It's a tricky fly, but doable. Once it goes external though - the updraft would knock you out of the sky like a hammer.

Ya, that makes sense.

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One last bump before I go to bed.


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Offline TomSea

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File under CNN propaganda, response to Katrina, the Bush admin's responsibility? Really? Maybe more dangerous journalists running about.

Quote
Is Grenfell Tower Britain's Katrina?
By James Kirkup

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/15/opinions/grenfell-tower-britains-katrina-kirkup-opinion/index.html


Offline Smokin Joe

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Whoever made the decision for the residents to stay in their apartments should be forced to clear the bodies.  Then jailed for the rest of their life.
Especially the children. Let them wake up in a cold sweat every night for a few years.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Not a hope in hell for that, with the sort of tight updraft the fire was producing. With a fire that is mostly internal, sure. It's a tricky fly, but doable. Once it goes external though - the updraft would knock you out of the sky like a hammer.
I think now that the mechanism of fire propagation has been recognized, an examination of firefighting tactics is in order, too. Had the firefighters been able to breach the cladding and use that updraft behind it to carry steam (from water put on the blaze) through the flue that was aiding the fire in its spread, they may have been able to slow the spread of the fire, if not stop it. It would require hitting the fire near the base with a fog, not a straight stream, and letting the air movement carry the water droplets into the space the fire was moving in. As those convert to steam (and they will) they expand tremendously and cool the fire. We used the technique on smaller structural fires, using the steam conversion to extinguish fires in walls, with great success. Those however were much smaller buildings. In this case, (and I wasn't there and hate to second guess the firefighters on scene), it might have bought some more time for residents to get out.

Part of the problem, aside from the tremendous heat, is that with the outside of the building so fully involved, there is little oxygen getting to the core of the building itself, and the fire is a cruel competitor for whatever oxygen is present in the building. Staying low to the floor is a good idea for escape because there is almost always an inch or two of breathable air down there, but when there is little oxygen and high temperatures, and people are trying to do so on steps, well, that doesn't work quite as well.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline dfwgator

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File under CNN propaganda, response to Katrina, the Bush admin's responsibility? Really? Maybe more dangerous journalists running about.

I figured eventually they'll blame it on Brexit.

Offline Fishrrman

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DB wrote:
"Pretty insane. Not something I'd expect in London. India, sure."

In certain parts of London(istan), can much of distinction between those two places be draw any more...?


Offline driftdiver

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