Author Topic: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations  (Read 13163 times)

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Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2017, 07:02:22 pm »
Actually I have real world experience at trying to overcome the affects of copious quantities of lobbyist  $$$$ in a primary! 

So you're in favor of prohibiting private cash in campaigns and going to solely government-funded campaigning, to make it equal, right?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2017, 07:11:32 pm »
So you're in favor of prohibiting private cash in campaigns and going to solely government-funded campaigning, to make it equal, right?

Never said that!  And note once agin your attempts to attribute words never uttered by me to my account! 

I'm for educating voters that they should not automatically vote for the guy with the most money in primaries becase ther is a reason for his having all that money! 

We've had some success at that recently in fact!  Ted Cruz took out a guy with 50 times the name id and tons more money!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:12:16 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2017, 07:14:34 pm »
Never said that!  And note once agin your attempts to attribute words never uttered by me to my account! 

I'm for educating voters that they should not automatically vote for the guy with the most money in primaries becase ther is a reason for his having all that money! 

We've had some success at that recently in fact!  Ted Cruz took out a guy with 50 times the name id and tons more money!

So what is the problem with having money involved in a campaign?  You can't have it both ways.  Either it's the sole reason why the RINOs you hate keep getting re-elected even though you claim they don't represent the people who voted for them, in which case it should be removed, or not.  Which is it?

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2017, 07:21:52 pm »
So what is the problem with having money involved in a campaign?  You can't have it both ways.  Either it's the sole reason why the RINOs you hate keep getting re-elected even though you claim they don't represent the people who voted for them, in which case it should be removed, or not.  Which is it?

I answered your question in the post you responded to. Did you read it?

If you keep on doing what you've always done you are going to keep on getting what you've always gotten!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:31:34 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2017, 07:29:25 pm »
Yes, do nothing to finance the piece of crap and it will wither away.

And you seem so afraid of the media and the Dems. 

The current President got there because he was not fearful of them.

Once you get it through your head that the Dems and MSM will NEVER give a pass to DT or the GOP, then perhaps you can think rationally.

But it doesn't just whither away. It drags down the whole economy with it....so you'll have the disaster of O-Care AND a government shutdown...might even spur a full on Depression. And the GOP will own it 100% in political terms. Is that fair? Hells no, but its the narrative the Dems and media will stick to the Republicans/Conservatives and it will be tougher than guerilla glue to remove....could bring on a generation of liberal rule in DC. And yes, that would be an epic disaster from which we'd not recover...any conservative willing to bring that about by stifling the imperfect GOP plan...which is vastly superior to O-care....is either politically suicidal, or actually hoping to instigate some sort of apocalyptic revolutionary dissolution of the country. In either case, you'd have to be a true nutjob.

We don't have the votes...and for the record...nobody promised that every Republican would go along for full repeal....what was promised was that leadership would fight for such a repeal, which it has. People like Susan Collins and others were never on board, so we've never had the votes for this impossibility which some of you seem eager to cling to...you've set up an unachievable golden idol and are now furious because its not granting you your wishes. Politics in a Republic are dirty and full of compromise...by design and necessity...you just don't get everything you want unless you have some kind of broad national consensus. We don't have that...so its compromise or complete failure and a long term Left wing takeover. If your principles dictate political suicide when you don't fully get your way...well...its no wonder the Left keeps winning.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:01:47 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2017, 07:48:26 pm »
Quote
"I was not elected to continue a failed system. I was elected to CHANGE IT."

Donald J. Trump


And so were you lily livered republican cowards currently serving in congress!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:54:02 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2017, 07:51:21 pm »
The GOP didn't make huge gains
That is a lie disprovable by the fact that they swept almost every competitive Senate race that cycle. Compare that to 2012, when they lost seats in an environment where they should have made huge gains.

Quote
and would have done much better if they hadn't shut down the government.
How Obama-like of you. "Well, yeah, health care premiums are going up, but it'd be worse if we hadn't done it my way!" Pure speculation. There's no evidence that the shutdown hurt anyone.

Quote
As it was, they still weren't able to do much constructive afterward.
That's my point. Right after the misconception that taking a stand was going to hurt them was thoroughly discredited, they promptly reverted to acting chicken.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2017, 07:54:37 pm »
But it doesn't just whither away. It drags down the whole economy with it....so you'll have the disaster of O-Care AND a government shutdown...might even spur a full on Depression. And the GOP will own it 100% in political terms. Is that fair? Hells no, but its the narrative the Dems and media will stick to the Republicans/Conservatives and it will be tougher than guerilla glue to remove....could bring on a generation of liberal rule in DC. And yes, that would be an epic disaster from which we'd not recover...any conservative willing to bring that about by stifling the imperfect GOP plan...which is vastly superior to O-care....is either politically suicidal, or actually hoping to instigate some sort of apocalyptic revolutionary dissolution of the country. In either case, you'd have to be a true nutjob.

We don't have the votes...and for the record...nobody promised that every Republican would go along for full repeal....what was promised that leadership would fight for such a repeal, which it has. People like Susan Collins and others were never on board, so we've never had the votes for this impossibility which some of you seem eager to cling to...you've set up an unachievable golden idol and are now furious because its not granting you your wishes. Politics in a Republic are dirty and full of compromise...by design and necessity...you just don't get everything you want unless you have some kind of broad national consensus. We don't have that...so its compromise or complete failure and a long term Left wing takeover. If your principles dictate political suicide when you don't fully get your way...well...its no wonder the Left keeps winning.

Mesaclone !!!!!
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2017, 08:08:19 pm »
That is a lie disprovable by the fact that they swept almost every competitive Senate race that cycle. Compare that to 2012, when they lost seats in an environment where they should have made huge gains.
 How Obama-like of you. "Well, yeah, health care premiums are going up, but it'd be worse if we hadn't done it my way!" Pure speculation. There's no evidence that the shutdown hurt anyone.
 That's my point. Right after the misconception that taking a stand was going to hurt them was thoroughly discredited, they promptly reverted to acting chicken.

No, they're simply really bad politicians - the radical conservatives, that is, who shut it down.  They did nothing but sell a bill of goods to the electorate.  They're fools whose idiocy is exceeded only by the fools who elected them. 

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2017, 08:16:02 pm »
Sorry @Mesaclone   I doubt Conservatives will agree with you (or me) on this. 

From all I've been reading over the past year, for today's Conservative:  Bitterness is virtue, hubris is principle, abject failure is preferable to partial victory. 

And while perched on this three-legged stool, they are going to fight for the death of any accomplishment.

Well, it's hard to be that wrong on so many points, but there you are.

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2017, 08:23:35 pm »
But it doesn't just whither away. It drags down the whole economy with it....so you'll have the disaster of O-Care AND a government shutdown...might even spur a full on Depression. And the GOP will own it 100% in political terms. Is that fair? Hells no, but its the narrative the Dems and media will stick to the Republicans/Conservatives and it will be tougher than guerilla glue to remove....could bring on a generation of liberal rule in DC. And yes, that would be an epic disaster from which we'd not recover...any conservative willing to bring that about by stifling the imperfect GOP plan...which is vastly superior to O-care....is either politically suicidal, or actually hoping to instigate some sort of apocalyptic revolutionary dissolution of the country. In either case, you'd have to be a true nutjob.

We don't have the votes...and for the record...nobody promised that every Republican would go along for full repeal....what was promised that leadership would fight for such a repeal, which it has. People like Susan Collins and others were never on board, so we've never had the votes for this impossibility which some of you seem eager to cling to...you've set up an unachievable golden idol and are now furious because its not granting you your wishes. Politics in a Republic are dirty and full of compromise...by design and necessity...you just don't get everything you want unless you have some kind of broad national consensus. We don't have that...so its compromise or complete failure and a long term Left wing takeover. If your principles dictate political suicide when you don't fully get your way...well...its no wonder the Left keeps winning.
If I had a robotic lawnmower grinding through my trees and chewing up the flowerbeds, I'd do what it takes to shut it down. Well, that's what the Congress has done to the economy. All that will be left is the 'big house', and maybe some slave quarters. When I was paying six figures a year in taxes, I knew that was at the whim of the Government, not because what I do has any direct connection to government, but because of the rules they make. One wrong policy and it was done. Last year, they got not one dime in taxes, not even social security.
Unfortunately, whatever those >bleep<ers on Capitol Hill do or don't they get paid, and will be reelected until they die or are voted out. The people who work with them are the same. Anyone else who has been fortunate enough to have a career not punctuated by times of poverty brought by government stupidity has indeed been blessed.
But the part of Government that is supposed to be user friendly, the part that is supposed to work for us, that promised and deceived even to the point of holding mock votes on legislation they had no intent of passing, the part that outright LIED to the People NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN. That nest of snakes won't even hold a vote because 2018 is coming and they want to lie to us again for another round.

Well, >bleep< them. I will sell all I own and donate it to primary challengers in the GOP races to see these LYING sons of b*tches the Hell out of Congress. Y'all can piss around with "the perfect is the enemy of the good" nonsense all you want, but what you have is crap. It is not 'good', nowhere close, it's just a bunch of stinking liars on Capitol Hill living large off of the lifeblood of America, teeth in the vein, nose in the trough, and lining their pockets. They don't even have balls large enough to tell you they are going to screw you. You want to back that, you deserve what you get. Stock up on Preparation H--or maybe  Ben Gay would be more in keeping with that breed of masochism.

It's bad enough knowing the Dems will screw us, but these sh*tbirds are supposed to be on our side. Right now, I don't see a hell of a lot of difference.

We're on our way to a Depression that makes the '30s look like a slow day at the ice cream stand in mid summer. We can't print enough money to cover the national debt, we don't have the paper, even if we brought back the $1000 and $5000 notes. And when it comes, the French Revolution will look like a scuffle in a schoolyard. If these jerks in DC don't get with the program, the one they voted for when it would not go past the president's desk, they will only bring it on quicker. One sixth of the economy is in play. They can get their fingers out of that with a vote or they can keep screwing it up.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2017, 08:27:43 pm »
And anyone actually believes that the Republicans will pass some watered down healthcare crap and then go back and fix it later?  Suuuure they will.   *****rollingeyes*****

Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2017, 08:29:23 pm »
And anyone actually believes that the Republicans will pass some watered down healthcare crap and then go back and fix it later?  Suuuure they will.   *****rollingeyes*****

They why even bother being politically involved, if you don't think it does any good?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2017, 08:31:27 pm »
They why even bother being politically involved, if you don't think it does any good?

We are being politically active to try to insure that they don't do this.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2017, 08:31:54 pm »
They why even bother being politically involved, if you don't think it does any good?

I wasn't suggesting "we" give up, which in my estimation is what many here are suggesting by taking what we can get, I'm suggesting that feet be held firmly to the fire.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2017, 08:33:27 pm »
I wasn't suggesting "we" give up, which in my estimation is what many here are suggesting by taking what we can get, I'm suggesting that feet be held firmly to the fire.
Exactly.  888high58888
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2017, 08:38:20 pm »
I wasn't suggesting "we" give up, which in my estimation is what many here are suggesting by taking what we can get, I'm suggesting that feet be held firmly to the fire.

Well, it should be obvious by now that "we" ain't getting the whole enchilada, so the choices are getting what you call watered down, or owning the upcoming Obamacare failure.  Your pick. 

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2017, 08:40:53 pm »
If I had a robotic lawnmower grinding through my trees and chewing up the flowerbeds, I'd do what it takes to shut it down. Well, that's what the Congress has done to the economy. All that will be left is the 'big house', and maybe some slave quarters. When I was paying six figures a year in taxes, I knew that was at the whim of the Government, not because what I do has any direct connection to government, but because of the rules they make. One wrong policy and it was done. Last year, they got not one dime in taxes, not even social security.
Unfortunately, whatever those >bleep<ers on Capitol Hill do or don't they get paid, and will be reelected until they die or are voted out. The people who work with them are the same. Anyone else who has been fortunate enough to have a career not punctuated by times of poverty brought by government stupidity has indeed been blessed.
But the part of Government that is supposed to be user friendly, the part that is supposed to work for us, that promised and deceived even to the point of holding mock votes on legislation they had no intent of passing, the part that outright LIED to the People NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN. That nest of snakes won't even hold a vote because 2018 is coming and they want to lie to us again for another round.

Well, >bleep< them. I will sell all I own and donate it to primary challengers in the GOP races to see these LYING sons of b*tches the Hell out of Congress. Y'all can piss around with "the perfect is the enemy of the good" nonsense all you want, but what you have is crap. It is not 'good', nowhere close, it's just a bunch of stinking liars on Capitol Hill living large off of the lifeblood of America, teeth in the vein, nose in the trough, and lining their pockets. They don't even have balls large enough to tell you they are going to screw you. You want to back that, you deserve what you get. Stock up on Preparation H--or maybe  Ben Gay would be more in keeping with that breed of masochism.

It's bad enough knowing the Dems will screw us, but these sh*tbirds are supposed to be on our side. Right now, I don't see a hell of a lot of difference.

We're on our way to a Depression that makes the '30s look like a slow day at the ice cream stand in mid summer. We can't print enough money to cover the national debt, we don't have the paper, even if we brought back the $1000 and $5000 notes. And when it comes, the French Revolution will look like a scuffle in a schoolyard. If these jerks in DC don't get with the program, the one they voted for when it would not go past the president's desk, they will only bring it on quicker. One sixth of the economy is in play. They can get their fingers out of that with a vote or they can keep screwing it up.

@Smokin Joe

Just a small addendum to your most excellent rant that we should never forget.

If they are good soldiers and mind their masters when they do become so unfortunate as to get unelected they simply move a few blocks over to K Street at 5 times the money!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2017, 08:42:27 pm »
True enough @Bigun ... but they are the majority of the Republican Senate.  Gotta deal with them if anything is to get done.   :shrug:

People today talk about a "divided nation" and point to all the images the media feeds us. Things seem near Apocalyptic.

If one imagines this "divided nation" as a color linear graph, you'd see half (more or less to one side or the other, depending on who you're talking to) of the line painted red and the other half blue, with both sides loudly screaming at one another.

That's the way I always pictured the graph anyway.

However, as I grew older I realized that I had the whole thing wrong.

In truth, that line graph has the tips of each end painted (about 5% each end) in red and Blue and shouting loudly to one another while the middle 90% just wants them both to shut up.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:43:27 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2017, 08:44:14 pm »
But it doesn't just whither away. It drags down the whole economy with it....so you'll have the disaster of O-Care AND a government shutdown...might even spur a full on Depression. And the GOP will own it 100% in political terms. Is that fair? Hells no, but its the narrative the Dems and media will stick to the Republicans/Conservatives and it will be tougher than guerilla glue to remove....could bring on a generation of liberal rule in DC. And yes, that would be an epic disaster from which we'd not recover...any conservative willing to bring that about by stifling the imperfect GOP plan...which is vastly superior to O-care....is either politically suicidal, or actually hoping to instigate some sort of apocalyptic revolutionary dissolution of the country. In either case, you'd have to be a true nutjob.

We don't have the votes...and for the record...nobody promised that every Republican would go along for full repeal....what was promised was that leadership would fight for such a repeal, which it has. People like Susan Collins and others were never on board, so we've never had the votes for this impossibility which some of you seem eager to cling to...you've set up an unachievable golden idol and are now furious because its not granting you your wishes. Politics in a Republic are dirty and full of compromise...by design and necessity...you just don't get everything you want unless you have some kind of broad national consensus. We don't have that...so its compromise or complete failure and a long term Left wing takeover. If your principles dictate political suicide when you don't fully get your way...well...its no wonder the Left keeps winning.
No, what drags the economy is continuing to fund this health welfare monstrosity. 

There is no money for this idiocy.  Kill the funding and you kill the creature and return to fiscal sanity.

A Depression?  How come we had none when we did not have this in place?

Sounding like a lib when trying to say the sky is falling.  That's how they act and get legislation, by scaring people.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2017, 08:47:37 pm »
People today talk about a "divided nation" and point to all the images the media feeds us. Things seem near Apocalyptic.

If one imagines this "divided nation" as a color linear graph, you'd see half (more or less to one side or the other, depending on who you're talking to) of the line painted red and the other half blue, with both sides loudly screaming at one another.

That's the way I always pictured the graph anyway.

However, as I grew older I realized that I had the whole thing wrong.

In truth, that line graph has the tips of each end painted (about 5% each end) in red and Blue and shouting loudly to one another while the middle 90% just wants them both to shut up.

I agree with you, Luis.  I think we should just shut up and walk away and let the whole damn thing implode.  Serves all of those idiots right who don't care and don't want to hear it.

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2017, 08:54:17 pm »
Well, it should be obvious by now that "we" ain't getting the whole enchilada, so the choices are getting what you call watered down, or owning the upcoming Obamacare failure.  Your pick.

There's no part of the Obamacare failure that *I* will own.  And if conservative republicans were smart they wouldn't own it either.  But a watered down version is bound to fail as well, and who will take ownership of that?

A republican majority congress put a repeal bill on the presidents desk, knowing he wouldn't sign it.  Now we have a republican president who most likely would sign it (though who really knows with Trump) and they can't won't put one back.  And you think they're going to pass something less and then come back later for more? 

Oceander

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2017, 08:55:54 pm »
There's no part of the Obamacare failure that *I* will own.  And if conservative republicans were smart they wouldn't own it either.  But a watered down version is bound to fail as well, and who will take ownership of that?

A republican majority congress put a repeal bill on the presidents desk, knowing he wouldn't sign it.  Now we have a republican president who most likely would sign it (though who really knows with Trump) and they can't won't put one back.  And you think they're going to pass something less and then come back later for more? 

Ok. Have it your way.  You were warned.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2017, 08:59:44 pm »
There's no part of the Obamacare failure that *I* will own.  And if conservative republicans were smart they wouldn't own it either.  But a watered down version is bound to fail as well, and who will take ownership of that?

A republican majority congress put a repeal bill on the presidents desk, knowing he wouldn't sign it.  Now we have a republican president who most likely would sign it (though who really knows with Trump) and they can't won't put one back.  And you think they're going to pass something less and then come back later for more?

Exactly and totally right!  Across the board!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Conservatives near revolt on Senate health care negotiations
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2017, 09:00:12 pm »
Ok. Have it your way.  You were warned.

Unfortunately there's nothing about it that will end up my way, but I sure as hell ain't going to be served it somewhat less "their" way and say thank you to anyone.