Author Topic: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'  (Read 17127 times)

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Offline Gefn

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #201 on: June 04, 2017, 09:53:43 pm »
@Smokin Joe
@CatherineofAragon
@Freya

First, I just got an email from son, Wayne, to tell me he was not in the area of the attacks last night, that he is safe.

I had a retired friend who was a sheriff's deputy.  We would go to a restaurant and he would ask for certain seating so he could survey the people in there.  He did it every time.  No person was behind his back.  That put me facing the back of the restaurant.

My son has a friend in Florida who is a retired Florida detective.  When he would go to dinner with him, this detective would do the same thing - get a seat so he could see everyone.  That would put Wayne facing the back of the restaurant. 

Both Wayne and I would see the kitchen when we were with our "ex-cop" friend.
I hate sitting with my back to the room. Always have, always will. I want to see the door, too, so I can see 'trouble' coming in.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #202 on: June 04, 2017, 09:54:18 pm »
It's real sad and EC hasn't been on. He should know, we are all with you brother.

Offline Gefn

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #203 on: June 04, 2017, 09:56:28 pm »
It's real sad and EC hasn't been on. He should know, we are all with you brother.

 :amen:

@EC is a good bloke, as they say across the pond.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 09:57:24 pm by Freya »
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Offline TomSea

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #205 on: June 04, 2017, 10:01:26 pm »
@Wingnut

Parked my car in a parking garage - got in the elevator in the parking garage along with five others.  It stopped mid floors.  The others in there went into instant panic.  I immediately thought of how to get out of there.  I looked up and saw I could get out if the men in there held me up - I would fit into that opening.  I tried to calm those people down, saying if it didn't move soon, I would go out the top.  One woman, one man, said they couldn't stand being in small places - they were useless.  It finally moved and we got out.  That was a learning time - be a McGiver (sp), and figure it out by yourself as others may panic.

If there is a problem, I immediately go into solving that problem.  Women scream, I don't know why they do that as a scream gets you nothing.  I am not a screamer, I am a solver.  When I go in a place, I look for exits.
I am glad to hear your son is safe. You are a survivor. Panic is contagious, and I wish those people would just hush and let the problem solvers get on with it. ^-^
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline EC

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #206 on: June 04, 2017, 10:57:42 pm »
It's real sad and EC hasn't been on. He should know, we are all with you brother.

I'm about. Get set to read and catch up and the damned phone goes again.  :shrug:
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #207 on: June 05, 2017, 01:39:51 am »
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #208 on: June 05, 2017, 02:31:13 am »
When you add "nationalism" to "fascism", you have gone from an economic model to a political one. Different critter.
 
Mussolini and Hitler both used Nationalism coupled with a Cult of Personality (and totalitarian enforcement) to maintain a fascist economy.

Yes, a fascist economy is only one aspect of fascism.  Fascism without nationalism isn't fascism.

Authoritarianism and state-above-individual are hallmarks of fascism, too.
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #209 on: June 05, 2017, 04:48:10 am »
@Victoria33
As you know today was my dad's unveiling.
When it was all over I asked the Rabbi if I could pray for a few friends who live in the U.K., and for
@Machiavelli 's  wife.
@Freya

Thank you, Freya.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #210 on: June 05, 2017, 05:43:48 am »
Yes, a fascist economy is only one aspect of fascism.  Fascism without nationalism isn't fascism.

Authoritarianism and state-above-individual are hallmarks of fascism, too.

@Suppressed

Fascism without nationalism is communism. Communists are international fascists.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #211 on: June 05, 2017, 05:52:59 am »
@Suppressed

Fascism without nationalism is communism. Communists are international fascists.
There is a subtle difference.
The National Socialists were not Fascists in the true sense, they were Socialists, with a corrupted fascistic economic model. They couldn't exactly go around quoting Marx or Engels, because that would have led people to wonder why they were even fighting Communists, and in the case of the Nazis, would have messed up their putsch for power. Mussolini was a more 'pure' Fascist.

In fascism, the industrial output and allocation of resources are controlled by the Government, but the ownership of industry remains in private hands. In Communism, the Government owns it all. Otherwise, the Fascists and Communists wouldn't have been having it out in the streets. There were some international concerns which profited handsomely from both World Wars, but no one likes to talk about that. Ironically, as the effects of power and trimmings of wealth became more reachable for the Party elite, with the fall of the Soviet Union, the allegedly capitalist government actually took on capitalist trimmings, but became more Fascist underneath. If someone crossed the Party (Gazprom, anyone?), they fell from favor and forfeited their booty.

In practice, both forms of government are totalitarian in nature, so the effects for 'outsiders' and for dissidents are the same. Usually imprisonment or death.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 05:55:38 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #212 on: June 05, 2017, 06:14:20 am »
Quote
There is a subtle difference.

@Smokin Joe


Yes,there is,and it is those subtle differences that make ALL the difference to the "True Believers". For the reat of us,it's basically a case of "a dictator is a dictator."

However,it is a historical point of fact that most people on both sides of the issue try to ignore for all they are wroth that the Nazi's and the Communists were allies when WW-2 first started,and before the war Stalin leased out huge tracts in Russia for the Germans to develop their military weapons and tactics. They were such goombahs that they shared the invasion of Poland.

They remained allies right up to the instant that Hitler ordered the invasion of the USSR,suddenly,overnight,Nazi's because "evil right-wingers" instead of fellow socialists.

Funny how that works,huh?

Quote
In practice, both forms of government are totalitarian in nature, so the effects for 'outsiders' and for dissidents are the same. Usually imprisonment or death
.

Yup. A police state is a police state is a police state.

The New World Order is the ultimate police state.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:12:54 am by sneakypete »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #213 on: June 05, 2017, 06:24:48 am »
@sneakypete
Quote
Yup. A police state is a police state is a police state.

The New World Order is the ultimate police state.
Yep, all hair splitting and doctrinal discussions aside, that is the bottom line. Imagine what any of those past, failed, totalitarian governments could have done with the ability to capture and move information present today.

Everything, and I mean everything, you buy, do, where you go, what you eat, when you turn the lights on or off and hos big the bulb is (and what type), can all conceivably be tracked.  We have reached the point where using cash, not having a 'smart' whatever or the latest gps equipped vehicle is considered unpatriotic, citizen, and everyone on my teevee seems to want to sell me a DNA test kit. Hmmm. I know my ancestry. I don't need the kit. How did those folks not know they were 26% American Indian. Why did that lady give her nationality as Hispanic and not just "American"? and other questions abound from watching that stuff.

Anything you give them can and will be used against you someday, because if you remember Liberty, even the version we had 50 years ago, you know those walls are getting closer.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #214 on: June 05, 2017, 06:37:00 am »
There is a subtle difference.
The National Socialists were not Fascists in the true sense, they were Socialists, with a corrupted fascistic economic model. They couldn't exactly go around quoting Marx or Engels, because that would have led people to wonder why they were even fighting Communists, and in the case of the Nazis, would have messed up their putsch for power. Mussolini was a more 'pure' Fascist.

In fascism, the industrial output and allocation of resources are controlled by the Government, but the ownership of industry remains in private hands. In Communism, the Government owns it all. Otherwise, the Fascists and Communists wouldn't have been having it out in the streets. There were some international concerns which profited handsomely from both World Wars, but no one likes to talk about that. Ironically, as the effects of power and trimmings of wealth became more reachable for the Party elite, with the fall of the Soviet Union, the allegedly capitalist government actually took on capitalist trimmings, but became more Fascist underneath. If someone crossed the Party (Gazprom, anyone?), they fell from favor and forfeited their booty.

In practice, both forms of government are totalitarian in nature, so the effects for 'outsiders' and for dissidents are the same. Usually imprisonment or death.

My understanding is that what you describe as Communisim ("the" Government owns the means of production) is Socialism.  Communism is when the workers own the means of production (ack, I think I just called Hy-Vee commie), perhaps shared with the other workers in their area, kind of a small government Socialism without all the central planning and such.

Read an interesting book awhile back on the leaders of the USSR.  Their (supposed) goal was Communism, but they felt they needed to use Socialism to get them there, but never could.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #215 on: June 05, 2017, 06:46:58 am »
My understanding is that what you describe as Communisim ("the" Government owns the means of production) is Socialism.  Communism is when the workers own the means of production (ack, I think I just called Hy-Vee commie), perhaps shared with the other workers in their area, kind of a small government Socialism without all the central planning and such.

Read an interesting book awhile back on the leaders of the USSR.  Their (supposed) goal was Communism, but they felt they needed to use Socialism to get them there, but never could.
True, but in pure Communism, the people are the government and everyone gives according to their abilities, and receives according to their needs (or something like that). Neither National Socialism which is commonly called Fascism, nor Soviet (nor Chinese) Communism ever made it to their purer forms.

Ultimately, in practice, they were just a bunch of (brutal) totalitarians spewing, at best, snippets of political theory while living large on the backs of slave labor, doling out relative prosperity to those who were sufficiently loyal and capable enough of making the whole show run.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #216 on: June 05, 2017, 07:17:24 am »
@


@Smokin Joe

Quote
( I wrote)  Yup. A police state is a police state is a police state.

    The New World Order is the ultimate police state.

Quote
( Smokin Joe replied) Yep, all hair splitting and doctrinal discussions aside, that is the bottom line.

A cat might have stripes like a tiger,or it might have spots or even be a solid color. That is irrelevant. What IS relevant is they are all still cats.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Suppressed

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #217 on: June 05, 2017, 10:33:28 am »
Edit...

okay, I was half-asleep when I wrote this.  I'm seeing now that I misread your post.  Oh, well, my post stands on its own, even if we're agreeing.

Neither National Socialism which is commonly called Fascism...

True, in the sense that fascism is a broader term, more than just the economics like National Socialism. But the Nazis were definitely referred to as fascists. Just watch old newsreels--and especially hear that we were fighting "fascists" even after Italy fell.

Plus, National Socialism and socialism are very different.  Under socialism, the State owns the means of production. Under National Socialism, Messerschmidt continued to own their factories...they were just given orders and contracts by the government.  The profits were retained by the private sector...very different from socialism!

I recommend Under the Axe of Fascism, by Gaetano Salvimini, published in 1936. He was an economist who lived under Mussolini and came to America to teach at Harvard. He describes fascist economics in detail.  Note that the Fascist regime wasn't defined by one particular economics, but that regardless of changes, they were still Fascists.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 02:01:01 pm by Suppressed »
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #218 on: June 05, 2017, 11:32:55 am »
Oh Lord, here we go with the thread takeover again- topic: what form of oppressive government, but not to oppressive can best control radicalizm.
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Offline dfwgator

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #219 on: June 05, 2017, 12:01:39 pm »
True, in the sense that fascism is a broader term, more than just the economics like National Socialism. But the Nazis were definitely referred to as fascists. Just watch old newsreels--and especially hear that we were fighting "fascists" even after Italy fell.

Plus, National Socialism and socialism are very different.  Under socialism, the State owns the means of production. Under National Socialism, Messerschmidt continued to own their factories...they were just given orders and contracts by the government.  The profits were retained by the private sector...very different from socialism!

I recommend Under the Axe of Fascism, by Gaetano Salvimini, published in 1936. He was an economist who lived under Mussolini and came to America to teach at Harvard. He describes fascist economics in detail.  Note that the Fascist regime wasn't defined by one particular economics, but that regardless of changes, they were still Fascists.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ep6YVqc6Ks


Offline DCPatriot

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #221 on: June 05, 2017, 12:31:46 pm »


/s      (For those too slow)

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:33:25 pm by DCPatriot »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #222 on: June 05, 2017, 12:41:12 pm »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #223 on: June 05, 2017, 12:43:17 pm »


/s      (For those too slow)

OMG that's good!  :laugh:    @DCPatriot   

Offline Gefn

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Re: 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'
« Reply #224 on: June 05, 2017, 12:57:44 pm »


/s      (For those too slow)

Colombo was and still is one of my favorite TV shows. One old episode he went to London and solved a murder with Scotland Yard.
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