Author Topic: Passengers ‘shaky and so disgusted’ as United forces screaming doctor off a plane  (Read 30314 times)

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Offline LonestarDream

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In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close.   Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage?  I'd bet it is near 50%

 WASHINGTON, March 17— The Justice Department settled an antitrust suit today against six major airlines that agreed to changes in a computerized reservation system the Government said was used to fix air fares.

Without admitting or denying the accusation, the airlines -- American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Trans World Airlines and Alaska Airlines -- agreed to end the practice of communicating proposed fare increases to each other through the computerized system maintained by the Airline Tariff Publishing Company. The company, owned by a group of airlines including the six named in the lawsuit, was also named and agreed to the settlement.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/18/business/six-airlines-settle-suit-by-government-on-fares.html


Market power has never been more concentrated.  And price and capacity collusion likely continue.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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WASHINGTON, March 17— The Justice Department settled an antitrust suit today against six major airlines that agreed to changes in a computerized reservation system the Government said was used to fix air fares.

Without admitting or denying the accusation, the airlines -- American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Trans World Airlines and Alaska Airlines -- agreed to end the practice of communicating proposed fare increases to each other through the computerized system maintained by the Airline Tariff Publishing Company. The company, owned by a group of airlines including the six named in the lawsuit, was also named and agreed to the settlement.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/18/business/six-airlines-settle-suit-by-government-on-fares.html


Market power has never been more concentrated.  And price and capacity collusion likely continue.
you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?
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Offline thackney

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you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?

I think the point is made that he had to go back twenty years to find...
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Offline driftdiver

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United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market.  It is FAR from a monopoly.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/

@thackney
Using 2016 numbers four airlines have 68.8% of the market.     If you include the small airlines which have operating agreements with those four the number rises to 80.4%.   In some markets there are no options.   This morning on Foxnews Chris Christy said United has 70% of the market in New Jersey.
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Offline thackney

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@thackney
Using 2016 numbers four airlines have 68.8% of the market.     If you include the small airlines which have operating agreements with those four the number rises to 80.4%.   In some markets there are no options.   This morning on Foxnews Chris Christy said United has 70% of the market in New Jersey.

Four different airlines.  And fact that many small airlines effective compete with them shows the claim to be silly.
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Offline driftdiver

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Four different airlines.  And fact that many small airlines effective compete with them shows the claim to be silly.

80% of the market is good competition?

you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.
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Offline thackney

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80% of the market is good competition?

you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.

FOUR DIFFERENT companies.

Four competing companies.

Not a monopoly. 

Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 02:19:33 pm by thackney »
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Offline LonestarDream

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you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?

Yes .  The signalling has been going on for a long time. 
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Offline LonestarDream

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This is highly concentrated market power.  Especially given that one or two carries dominate by hub.

I think Delta has ATL for example .

@driftdiver .  While not a boiling issue compared to North Korea, there is no free market in airline travel.

And there are now luxury buses that compare favorably to air travel.  We are regressing.

FOUR DIFFERENT companies.

Four competing companies.

Not a monopoly. 

Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
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Offline LonestarDream

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80% of the market is good competition?

you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.

http://fortune.com/2016/10/30/airlines-price-fixing-lawsuit/

A federal judge rejected a bid by the four largest U.S. airlines to dismiss nationwide antitrust litigation by passengers who accused them of conspiring to raise fares by keeping seating capacity artificially low.

In a decision late Friday afternoon, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly said she could "reasonably infer the existence of a conspiracy" among American Airlines Group (aal, +2.19%), Delta Air Lines (dal, +2.41%), Southwest Airlines (luv, +2.25%) and United Continental Holdings (ual, +0.21%) to fix prices.

Kollar-Kotelly, who sits in Washington, D.C., did not rule on the merits of the proposed class-action case, which combines 105 lawsuits filed around the country and seeks triple damages.

The U.S. Department of Justice last year began its own probe into a possible conspiracy among the airlines, which, according to government data, command a roughly 69-percent domestic market share.

Passengers claimed that the conspiracy began in early 2009, and has resulted in higher fares and reduced flight choices.

American Airlines Plane Engine Flung Debris in Rare, Risky Failure

They said the conspiracy, together with low fuel prices and higher fees for checking bags and other services, helped the airlines post a record $21.7 billion combined profit in 2015.

The airlines said the litigation should be dismissed because there was no proof of an agreement to collude, or that they reduced capacity in tandem.

But in her 41-page decision, Kollar-Kotelly pointed to statements by several airline executives about the need for "discipline" in seating capacity.

"Starting in 2009, the industry experienced limited capacity growth," the judge wrote. "Notably, as defendants' executives acknowledged, this restriction on growing capacity was a marked change within the industry. The court is satisfied that at this stage, plaintiffs sufficiently pled parallel conduct."
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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FOUR DIFFERENT companies.

Four competing companies.

Not a monopoly. 

Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?

Four companies dominate the US as a whole, but in their individual markets they're pretty close to monopolies, especially for business travel where you aren't going to take the time for an extra hop just to save a few hundred dollars.

A friend lived in Minneapolis, and then moved to ND.  He still flies NWA, just now with an extra flight and at about half the price.  The same flight now costs much less if he first takes another flight on the same airline? 
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Offline driftdiver

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FOUR DIFFERENT companies.

Four competing companies.

Not a monopoly. 

Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?

@thackney
Four companies but is there competition?  Not much; each of these airlines uses pretty much the same planes, provides the same level of services, same pricing structure, same seat size and the same policy for booting customers it capriciously decides are not convenient to provide agreed upon services for.

So the only realistic market forces these companies are subject too is public opinion resulting from events such as this fiasco.   Folks like you seem to think customer feedback is childish and we should just take what we are given or stay home.
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Offline thackney

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@thackney
Four companies but is there competition?

Yes, I see that as competition.  If price fixing or other occurs, prosecute them to the full extent of the law.  But four different companies provides competition.

Quote
Not much; each of these airlines uses pretty much the same planes, provides the same level of services, same pricing structure, same seat size and the same policy for booting customers it capriciously decides are not convenient to provide agreed upon services for.

Are you really surprised a highly competitive market, where the consumer spending thousands of dollars to fly a family, does internet searches to save $5 on flight choices, results in similar equipment and methods in a mature market?

Quote
So the only realistic market forces these companies are subject too is public opinion resulting from events such as this fiasco.   Folks like you seem to think customer feedback is childish and we should just take what we are given or stay home.

Customer feedback is great.  Don't just accept you have to fly on United because you don't.

My argument on this thread is this is not an event requiring a government solution.

I don't fly often anymore.  Recently we chose to make a 9 hour drive (+9 hours back) over flying for a short weekend trip.  But in the past I've had multiple years of flying over 100,000 miles per year.
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Offline driftdiver

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@thackney

Then you speak from ignorance.   Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.

I used to be able to dependably fly to Dallas and be there for an 830am meeting.   

Today that trip takes a day.   Flights are regularly delayed and canceled.   During one period flying from Dulles to Tampa 8 of 10 flights I took were delayed at least 2 hours or canceled.   

My company travels frequently.   In the last year there has not been a single trip (out of about 75) where at least one person did not have flight issues.
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Offline thackney

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@thackney

Then you speak from ignorance.

I fly nearly every year.  I just don't do it as often as I used to.

Quote
  Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.

Agreed.  And government is a significant part of that problem.  Quit looking to them to be the solution.
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Offline driftdiver

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I fly nearly every year.  I just don't do it as often as I used to.

Agreed.  And government is a significant part of that problem.  Quit looking to them to be the solution.

Please show where I suggested the government is the solution?   They are the problem, the govt allowed the current non-competitive environment and police state tactics used in air travel.  Govt regulators (aka ex & future airline employees) are not interested in the traveler, only in the airlines.
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Offline thackney

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Please show where I suggested the government is the solution?   They are the problem, the govt allowed the current non-competitive environment and police state tactics used in air travel.  Govt regulators (aka ex & future airline employees) are not interested in the traveler, only in the airlines.

If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?
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Offline LonestarDream

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If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?

We already have a quasi government run airline system.  Dr Dao has made that IMMINENTLY clear.

That you would drive NINE hours instead of flying is the most powerful indictment made on this thread of our quasi government run airline system.   
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 05:14:54 pm by LonestarDream »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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We already have a quasi government run airline system.  Dr Dao has made that IMMINENTLY clear.

That you would drive NINE hours instead of flying is the most powerful indictment made on this thread of our quasi government run airline system.

That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.
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Offline driftdiver

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If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?

1.  Remove the pseudo law enforcement status of the airline employees
2.  Remove the government protections from airlines for failing to provide adequate treatment to passengers
3.  Prevent the airlines from hiring govt officials, and prevent govt agencies from hiring airline people
4.  Stop collusion between the airlines and govt regulatory beaucrats
5.  Apply current consumer laws to air travel tickets.   e.g. if you buy a ticket and they don't deliver as promised you get a refund
6.  Accurately track and publicize flight schedule data.   For example if 50% of an airlines flights after 4pm from LaGuardia are significantly delayed or canceled the airline should be required to publicize it to purchasers.

Just a start
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Offline driftdiver

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That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.

I havent driven coast to coast yet but Im getting there.    Tampa to Dallas is now a drive-able trip as its only 17 hours.    Last week two of us made the trip, on the way out the flights were only slightly delayed so that trip took about 10 hours door to door.   The return took 14 for me and 35 hours for my employee.
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Offline LonestarDream

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United is suing the website untied, to stop untied from publishing United's malfeasance .

http://www.untied.com/main.shtml


We collected, posted, and forwarded over 30,000 complaints against United Airlines. United is trying to shut down this site.
Please donate to our legal defense fund to help us continue fighting the airline.



1.  Remove the pseudo law enforcement status of the airline employees
2.  Remove the government protections from airlines for failing to provide adequate treatment to passengers
3.  Prevent the airlines from hiring govt officials, and prevent govt agencies from hiring airline people
4.  Stop collusion between the airlines and govt regulatory beaucrats
5.  Apply current consumer laws to air travel tickets.   e.g. if you buy a ticket and they don't deliver as promised you get a refund
6.  Accurately track and publicize flight schedule data.   For example if 50% of an airlines flights after 4pm from LaGuardia are significantly delayed or canceled the airline should be required to publicize it to purchasers.

Just a start
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Offline LonestarDream

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That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.

Yeah , well. I crossed the Arctic circle, barefoot, uphill both ways-- instead of flying to Germany. 

:smokin:
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Yeah , well. I crossed the Arctic circle, barefoot, uphill both ways-- instead of flying to Germany. 

:smokin:

Ya topped me.   :silly:
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Offline ABX

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OOPS...

It appears the David Dao who the press pulled the background info on is the wrong David Dao. The criminal records the dumb press found and spread were of Dr. David Anh Duy Dao. The doctor on the plane was David Thanh Duc Dao.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html