Passengers ‘shaky and so disgusted’ as United forces screaming doctor off a plane

[IsailedawayfromFR]

This is silly.  Nearly every airline overbooks.  We don't need government intervention at this point.  There are enough choices for the market to handle this.

They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.

The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.

Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.

Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding.  They wanted x meals served at reception.  We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.

Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned?  Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.

I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.

[LonestarDream]

This is silly.  Nearly every airline overbooks.  We don't need government intervention at this point.  There are enough choices for the market to handle this.

Not denied boarding , deplaned.  Busting up the airlines is the LEAST government involved solution.

And creates a free market where none exists.  Many want to boycott United , but do not have an effective choice.

[thackney]

Not denied boarding , deplaned.  Busting up the airlines is the LEAST government involved solution.

And creates a free market where none exists.  Many want to boycott United , but do not have an effective choice.

We disagree.

Cheers!

[LonestarDream]

We get it.  Make the airlines pay for the tail risk.  25K per head in United's case.

They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.

The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.

Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.

Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding.  They wanted x meals served at reception.  We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.

Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned?  Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.

I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.

[LonestarDream]

We disagree.

Cheers!

Alternatively, unwind the United Merger with Continental.  As the time assurances were made that customers would not be taken advantage of . 

[Smokin Joe]

They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.

The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.

Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.

Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding.  They wanted x meals served at reception.  We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.

Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned?  Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.

I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.

I get what you are saying. There is a better way to deal with it. When the plane is full, put everyone else on standby. The no shows will create an opportunity to seat the standby fliers. If there are zero no-shows, then you didn't promise a seat, much less put someone in one.

The airline should know the seating arrangements on every plane, by tail number, how many of what are available, and the only time anyone would get bumped is if they have to change to a smaller plane. That would cut down on a lot of this.

The percentage of no-shows would also give the airline the flexibility to insert crew hitching a ride, or whomever they chose without bumping someone who had been told they had a seat.

It is in the optics. Put me on the plane, tell me I have a seat and I'm going where I'm going, as planned. Then tell me I'm not, and I'm not going to be happy about it. Tell me there might come an opening (before anyone boards) and let me fill it (those no-shows) and I'll be happy I got on. Presentation is key here. People are happy if they think you have done them a favor, and P.O.ed if they think you took something from them. So let them think they were done a favor rather than let them feel like they got screwed.
And sort out the passenger boarding before you put people on the plane, by class or whatever. Don't seat them and then want them to get off. That's just going to cause hard feelings.

[thackney]

Alternatively, unwind the United Merger with Continental.  As the time assurances were made that customers would not be taken advantage of .

Don't like United?  Don't buy their tickets.

Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices.  That is not the role of government.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I get what you are saying. There is a better way to deal with it. When the plane is full, put everyone else on standby. The no shows will create an opportunity to seat the standby fliers. If there are zero no-shows, then you didn't promise a seat, much less put someone in one.

The airline should know the seating arrangements on every plane, by tail number, how many of what are available, and the only time anyone would get bumped is if they have to change to a smaller plane. That would cut down on a lot of this.

The percentage of no-shows would also give the airline the flexibility to insert crew hitching a ride, or whomever they chose without bumping someone who had been told they had a seat.

It is in the optics. Put me on the plane, tell me I have a seat and I'm going where I'm going, as planned. Then tell me I'm not, and I'm not going to be happy about it. Tell me there might come an opening (before anyone boards) and let me fill it (those no-shows) and I'll be happy I got on. Presentation is key here. People are happy if they think you have done them a favor, and P.O.ed if they think you took something from them. So let them think they were done a favor rather than let them feel like they got screwed.
And sort out the passenger boarding before you put people on the plane, by class or whatever. Don't seat them and then want them to get off. That's just going to cause hard feelings.

I see your solution as plausible.

I was responding to a post that did not understand why Any airline would overbook.  They do, and it is logical to do so.

How they handle overbooking is what this thread should be about instead of why.

[Smokin Joe]

Don't like United?  Don't buy their tickets.

Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices.  That is not the role of government.

Exactly right. Unless United (or any other company) engages in practices which endanger their passengers or others, how they conduct their business is up to them. If their employees are guilty of assault (excessive force), so be it, and that should be dealt with by the appropriate authorities.
The marketplace is speaking on this event, loudly. I doubt government intervention will be necessary overall. Besides, give the government that power and they'll just be armpit deep in something else they shouldn't be into.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Don't like United?  Don't buy their tickets.

Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices.  That is not the role of government.

that is how Southwest got its start years ago.  Other airlines did things like hub and spoke, assigned seats, and SWA did it differently with great success.

And the hot pants in the 70s didn't hurt either......

[mystery-ak]

Overbooked. Any volunteers?

[LonestarDream]

Don't like United?  Don't buy their tickets.

Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices.  That is not the role of government.

People want to not buy United tickets.  As the previous poster noted, some US Airways had 100% market share in the Pittsburg market.  The government ALREADY intervenes capriciously.  The change would be to have the government intervene less.

Instead you are advocating for higher government involvement , not me. 

Where were you when Untied merged with Continental???

[LonestarDream]

As deeply troubling as the video is, analysts said, the emotional fury such incidents generate usually is fleeting, lasting a few days or weeks at most. The reality, they say, is that consumers have long put price, convenience and personal taste ahead of outrage.

And partly because of a rash of recent mergers that left the country with just four major airlines, many customers may not even have much choice. United’s 2010 tie-up with Continental allowed the company to claim more than 50 percent of passenger traffic in Houston and Newark, and to serve 1 in 3 fliers from Washington Dulles International Airport and in San Francisco.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/crisis-experts-to-united-this-too-shall-pass/2017/04/11/3550be86-1ec9-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.2da5fdc7c075

Take away the gates that were ill gained from the 2010 intervention. 

Or the dems will set prices like they did in the 1970s.

[LonestarDream]

Want a quick bite to eat?  Well, I am the only game in town!!!   

[LonestarDream]

[LonestarDream]

Lyrics

Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Can't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you, then the left one will

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store



Captive customer base ==  Life Crushing prices and treatment.  Concept been around for a while

[LonestarDream]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTCen9-RELM

[driftdiver]

They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.

The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.

Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.

Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding.  They wanted x meals served at reception.  We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.

Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned?  Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.

I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.

@IsailedawayfromFR
You're missing some important considerations.  Airlines do their best to operate full flights.  They do this knowing there will be weather, crew, and plane problems.  WHEN, not if, those problems occur they lack the capacity to handle their passenger load.  This leaves passengers in a very bad position.

It is not unreasonable to expect a service to be delivered as promised.   Some airports have atrocious rates for on time flights, say around 50% of flights after 4pm are delayed or canceled.

[driftdiver]

This is silly.  Nearly every airline overbooks.  We don't need government intervention at this point.  There are enough choices for the market to handle this.

@thackney

No there are not enough choices.  Depends on the airport but there is not enough competition.

[thackney]

@thackney

No there are not enough choices.  Depends on the airport but there is not enough competition.

United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market.  It is FAR from a monopoly.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/

[catfish1957]

United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market.  It is FAR from a monopoly.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/

In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close.   Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage?  I'd bet it is near 50%

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I'm all for the freemarket but overbooking is a form of fraud IMO.

[LonestarDream]

United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market.  It is FAR from a monopoly.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/

Irrelevant stat.  Have to go by market hub by city.  See above.  Also, airlines have been caught fixing prices in the past were there are two or three dominant players in a market.  They signal price increase in intentions through reservation systems. 

[LonestarDream]

In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close.   Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage?  I'd bet it is near 50%

It is.  And that is before the price collusion starts with others.

[mountaineer]

What are your rights when an airline overbooks? See the article I've posted as a separate thread.