California is getting so much power from solar that wholesale electricity prices are turning negative

[EC]

The extraordinary success of solar power in some pockets of the world that combine sunshine with high investment in the technology mean that governments and energy companies are having radically to rethink the way they manage—and charge for—electricity.

California is one such a place.

On March 11, it passed a milestone on the route to powering the whole state sustainably. For the first time, more than half the power needs of the entire state came from solar power for a few hours that day, according to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA).

The power came from utility-scale solar photovoltaic farms, solar thermal plants, and the panels installed on private homes. Based on the data it collects, the EIA estimated that in total that capacity produced 4 million kWh of electricity during peak times on March 11.

It’s a massive and rapid change: Just 15 years ago, the state produced almost no power from solar at all.

More: https://qz.com/953614/california-produced-so-much-power-from-solar-energy-this-spring-that-wholesale-electricity-prices-turned-negative/

 :huh?:

Leaving this one to the people who actually know what the hell they're on about.

[DB]

The extraordinary success of solar power in some pockets of the world that combine sunshine with high investment in the technology mean that governments and energy companies are having radically to rethink the way they manage—and charge for—electricity.

California is one such a place.

On March 11, it passed a milestone on the route to powering the whole state sustainably. For the first time, more than half the power needs of the entire state came from solar power for a few hours that day, according to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA).

The power came from utility-scale solar photovoltaic farms, solar thermal plants, and the panels installed on private homes. Based on the data it collects, the EIA estimated that in total that capacity produced 4 million kWh of electricity during peak times on March 11.

It’s a massive and rapid change: Just 15 years ago, the state produced almost no power from solar at all.

More: https://qz.com/953614/california-produced-so-much-power-from-solar-energy-this-spring-that-wholesale-electricity-prices-turned-negative/

 :huh?:

Leaving this one to the people who actually know what the hell they're on about.

Well that's come at a huge price. The bulk of my electricity is billed at $0.40 a kwh and I'm pissed about it.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Almost  always massively subsidized.

[EC]

Yeah - it seems subsidised by mugs. If the wholesale prices of electricity are turning negative, the people who put in solar (for example) and expected the sale of any overage to help with the break even cost just got royally screwed.

At least, that's my reading of it.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

This exemplifies the problem with solar: one cannot store much of the energy.  To cyclic to be a primary power source.

[Oceander]

Seems like they simply measured a transient spike, and then declared it a milestone.  What did the rate drop back down to after the spike?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

This exemplifies the problem with solar: one cannot store much of the energy.  To cyclic to be a primary power source.

Solar to hydrogen is a good bet imo.

[Oceander]

Solar to hydrogen is a good bet imo.

How so?

[endicom]

...4 million kWh of electricity...

Let's see, that equals...uhh...not much.

[skeeter]

Well that's come at a huge price. The bulk of my electricity is billed at $0.40 a kwh and I'm pissed about it.

And have you noticed the price of natural gas has recently caught up with electricity.

They have us coming and going.

[endicom]

"The LADWP notes that the average power use in L.A. during the summer is 4,700 megawatts..."

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/09/09/54303/ladwp-power-usage-hits-2015-high-during-la-heat-wa/

[DB]

Seems like they simply measured a transient spike, and then declared it a milestone.  What did the rate drop back down to after the spike?

Probably a cool day (minimal air conditioner use) and clear sky.

[Cyber Liberty]

 :huh?:

Leaving this one to the people who actually know what the hell they're on about.

I agree.  @thackney?

[Cyber Liberty]

Seems like they simply measured a transient spike, and then declared it a milestone.  What did the rate drop back down to after the spike?

They pretty much say that's what it says in the story.  March 11.  One four-hour occurrence on one day.

[thackney]

Well that's come at a huge price. The bulk of my electricity is billed at $0.40 a kwh and I'm pissed about it.

Maybe half what it would be without the subsidies from other tax payers?

[thackney]

And have you noticed the price of natural gas has recently caught up with electricity.

They have us coming and going.

Similar prices for similar amounts of energy?  Where do you see that?

[thackney]

Seems like they simply measured a transient spike, and then declared it a milestone.  What did the rate drop back down to after the spike?

[DB]

Maybe half what it would be without the subsidies from other tax payers?

I'm considering moving to Arizona where electricity is about $0.11 kwh. My electric bill averages about $800 a month prior to the increase to $0.40 kwh on March 1st. I work at home, have lots of electronic equipment (test equipment, computers, high speed switches, network attached storage, etc.). California just increased the gas tax another $0.12 a gallon, annual registration fees for cars increased $175 on newer cars. The top income tax rate is around 11% and the sales tax is pushing 9%. And then there's property taxes I pay which is more than most peoples mortgage... I've had enough.

My business partners and I are also working on moving our business out of California to Arizona. It's been here for 21 years. The business brings more than $4 million into California each year.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

How so?

Look into it. Fossil fuels are here to stay for the time being, but eventually their prices will rise to where solar is viable, and I believe hydrogen will be the storage medium. You can make hydrogen gas at home from electricity through electrolysis at home.

[skeeter]

Similar prices for similar amounts of energy?  Where do you see that?

All I know is my gas expense is now equal to my electricity expense (which itself has gone up about 50%), whereas a year ago gas represented about 30% of the electrical portion.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Look into it. Fossil fuels are here to stay for the time being, but eventually their prices will rise to where solar is viable

where did you get that information?

The word 'eventually' is likely lifetimes away.   Is that what you meant?

[thackney]

Look into it. Fossil fuels are here to stay for the time being, but eventually their prices will rise to where solar is viable, and I believe hydrogen will be the storage medium. You can make hydrogen gas at home from electricity through electrolysis at home.

I've had to work with hydrogen in refineries.  That experience convinces me it will never be a common fuel source without massive government subsidy.  It is so expensive to deal with.  Special alloys, special finishes for all components to make a seal, massive losses to compress to a usable pressure due to the low specific gravity.  It is a terrible fuel without someone else paying the bills, or an necessity to meet the requirements in a refinery.

[Oceander]

Look into it. Fossil fuels are here to stay for the time being, but eventually their prices will rise to where solar is viable, and I believe hydrogen will be the storage medium. You can make hydrogen gas at home from electricity through electrolysis at home.

Look into what?  Storing solar energy using hydrogen?  You're not making much sense, with all due respect.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Look into what?  Storing solar energy using hydrogen?  You're not making much sense, with all due respect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar%E2%80%93hydrogen_energy_cycle

I found out about this by reading up on using electrolysis to clean off rust off of old metal. A byproduct is flammable hydrogen gas.

A good description of the process:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/

This is a different process than the one above, but it does go to show you that storing energy from the sun in the form of hydrogen is possible.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

where did you get that information?

The word 'eventually' is likely lifetimes away.   Is that what you meant?

It will not happen in our lifetime, possibly not our children's lifetime. But I think eventually the prices will converge.