Pence presents new healthcare offer to Freedom Caucus

[Fishrrman]

A couple of streets away from me is an old industrial building that occupies some property that's going to be redeveloped into condominiums.

They started knocking the building down today.

They can't tear it down "all at once".
Instead, they tore away at it several cinder blocks at a time.
Tonight some of it still stands, but they'll work on it tomorrow and eventually it will be gone.

So it can go with obamacare.

If it can't be "torn down" all at once, at least get started by knocking it down a little at a time. Piece by piece, some here, some there, just keep going at it. And eventually it, too, will be gone. Even if it takes four or more years.

This is how the left has slowly pushed us towards socialism (and their ultimate goal which of course is communism). Little by little, incrementally.
And it's worked for the left.
You all understand that.

Anyone in this forum who believes obamacare is gonna be repealed by a single bill and a single vote... well... just keep on smokin' that stuff.
Ain't gonna happen.

But hey... it's great to be a "purist"... right?

[Bigun]

Mandated healthcare is antithetical to free will. I object.

Wait until they tell you all these farmers growing whatever they want is bad, too.

Control your health. Control the food supply. Game. Set. Match.

But people won't care plugged into the singularity.

Right on Fred!  Right on!   

[LonestarDream]

Well said.  We need to be on a pathway to competition across state lines, not single payer.

Also, cant pass tax reform unless the the 2 Trillion dollar Obamacare debacle is unwound.

A couple of streets away from me is an old industrial building that occupies some property that's going to be redeveloped into condominiums.

They started knocking the building down today.

They can't tear it down "all at once".
Instead, they tore away at it several cinder blocks at a time.
Tonight some of it still stands, but they'll work on it tomorrow and eventually it will be gone.

So it can go with obamacare.

If it can't be "torn down" all at once, at least get started by knocking it down a little at a time. Piece by piece, some here, some there, just keep going at it. And eventually it, too, will be gone. Even if it takes four or more years.

This is how the left has slowly pushed us towards socialism (and their ultimate goal which of course is communism). Little by little, incrementally.
And it's worked for the left.
You all understand that.

Anyone in this forum who believes obamacare is gonna be repealed by a single bill and a single vote... well... just keep on smokin' that stuff.
Ain't gonna happen.

But hey... it's great to be a "purist"... right?

[INVAR]

If it can't be "torn down" all at once, at least get started by knocking it down a little at a time. Piece by piece, some here, some there, just keep going at it. And eventually it, too, will be gone. Even if it takes four or more years.

Can you cite one government program that has ever been eliminated in this manner? One?

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth" - Reagan

[Smokin Joe]

Can you cite one government program that has ever been eliminated in this manner? One?

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth" - Reagan

The bottom line is that State control of health care will be the back door by which the State will assert the "right" to control virtually everything else. No longer in just your light sockets, under the hood of your car, in the mud puddle in the driveway or your toilet tank, it will be in your refrigerator, your clothes closet, on your dinner plate, telling you what you can --or can't do in your spare time, regulating what job you can do, how you have to play.

Imagine the same people who eliminated tag and dodgeball for being too dangerous deciding if you can own a gun. Because the "public cost" of every activity or possession will be added up by bean counters thousands of miles away, averaged over a culturally diverse population, and used as an excuse to destroy Liberty wholesale.

Nothing short of removing that control or the means to implement it is enough if this is to be anywhere near a 'free' country.
Insisting that those who are responsible pick up the tab for drug addicts, AIDS victims and the like, who made personal decisions which led to their predicaments is just wrong. Using those expenses to inflate the cost of health care for everyone else is just wrong.

Let them bear the burden of their own actions and quit shifting the responsibility to pay for the irresponsible to those who have done it right. It wasn't 'just luck' that kept them from being drug addicts, it wasn't just 'luck' that kept them from catching terminal STDs, it was personal responsibility and morally upright behaviour. If we're going to get people from playing stupid games, we have to let them to collect the prizes--otherwise there will be no deterrent.

If people want to argue for the right of people to behave irresponsibly, they should accept that those who do should not be supported in those efforts by the rest of us at the cost of our own care.

[INVAR]

The bottom line is that State control of health care will be the back door by which the State will assert the "right" to control virtually everything else. No longer in just your light sockets, under the hood of your car, in the mud puddle in the driveway or your toilet tank, it will be in your refrigerator, your clothes closet, on your dinner plate, telling you what you can --or can't do in your spare time, regulating what job you can do, how you have to play.

Imagine the same people who eliminated tag and dodgeball for being too dangerous deciding if you can own a gun. Because the "public cost" of every activity or possession will be added up by bean counters thousands of miles away, averaged over a culturally diverse population, and used as an excuse to destroy Liberty wholesale.

Nothing short of removing that control or the means to implement it is enough if this is to be anywhere near a 'free' country.
Insisting that those who are responsible pick up the tab for drug addicts, AIDS victims and the like, who made personal decisions which led to their predicaments is just wrong. Using those expenses to inflate the cost of health care for everyone else is just wrong.

Let them bear the burden of their own actions and quit shifting the responsibility to pay for the irresponsible to those who have done it right. It wasn't 'just luck' that kept them from being drug addicts, it wasn't just 'luck' that kept them from catching terminal STDs, it was personal responsibility and morally upright behaviour. If we're going to get people from playing stupid games, we have to let them to collect the prizes--otherwise there will be no deterrent.

If people want to argue for the right of people to behave irresponsibly, they should accept that those who do should not be supported in those efforts by the rest of us at the cost of our own care.

You uncaring, selfish, bigoted, intolerant, self-righteous, pompous  homophobe! 

How dare you cite root causes and common sense in an age of emotional narrative!!

[txradioguy]

People would never advocate for Obamacare... Trump/Ryancare or single payer if they had to deal with the military 's version of single payer known as TriCare.

[Frank Cannon]

People would never advocate for Obamacare... Trump/Ryancare or single payer if they had to deal with the military 's version of single payer known as TriCare.

What could be wrong with something called TriCare? Isn't there like 3 times more care with that than other programs?

[txradioguy]

What could be wrong with something called TriCare? Isn't there like 3 times more care with that than other programs?

Three times more paperwork...three times less care...three times more headaches.

I miss the old days when medical care for soldiers and families was taken care of completely by military doctors.

[Frank Cannon]

Three times more paperwork...three times less care...three times more headaches.

I miss the old days when medical care for soldiers and families was taken care of completely by military doctors.

I'm shocked. You mean to tell me that the Gov't would design such a terrible plan and then give it a name to make one think it covers 3 times more things? I just can't wrap my head around that one. Give me a minute while I collect my thoughts after this revelation.

[txradioguy]

I'm shocked. You mean to tell me that the Gov't would design such a terrible plan and then give it a name to make one think it covers 3 times more things? I just can't wrap my head around that one. Give me a minute while I collect my thoughts after this revelation.

  boggles the mind doesn't it?

[Frank Cannon]

  boggles the mind doesn't it?

That is why I needed the minute for composure. (Actually I went to the bathroom, grabbed another scotch and watched a stray cat walk by the barn.)

[geronl]

That is why I needed the minute for composure. (Actually I went to the bathroom, grabbed another scotch and watched a stray cat walk by the barn.)

You keep your scotch in the bathroom?

[Frank Cannon]

You keep your scotch in the bathroom?

I got mini bars in all 4 bathrooms. I got coke in the powder room.

[Hondo69]

So it can go with obamacare.

If it can't be "torn down" all at once, at least get started by knocking it down a little at a time. Piece by piece, some here, some there, just keep going at it. And eventually it, too, will be gone. Even if it takes four or more years.

This is how the left has slowly pushed us towards socialism (and their ultimate goal which of course is communism). Little by little, incrementally.
And it's worked for the left.
You all understand that.

In normal times I would agree with you, but these are anything but normal times.  If we could roll back the clock I would agree with you and say we could sit down at the table and negotiate a "settlement".  Neither side would like the result 100% which some would say is the sign of a good compromise.

The sausage making would require the different factions within the Republican party and the different factions within the Democratic party to make their own internal compromises as well.  The Far Left Democrats would have to compromise with the middle of the road and the Blue Dog Democrats to stake out the Democrat position as a whole, then work from there to begin negotiations with the Republicans.  It's not pretty but it's not supposed to be in a Republic.

And as ugly as the back biting, double dealing, cut throat process that goes into the sausage is, it is still a process.  One that works within the framework of the Constitution and The Rule of Law.  As long as both sides remain within the boundaries as set forth in the Constitution and The Rule of Law the process works.  Ugly or not, it works.

But both sides do not believe in the Constitution and The Rule of Law anymore, now do they?

[Smokin Joe]

People would never advocate for Obamacare... Trump/Ryancare or single payer if they had to deal with the military 's version of single payer known as TriCare.

Or "Indian Health". Which to me was THE poster child for NOT passing Obamacare in the first place.

[libertybele]

My father-in-law who is a WWII vet never used the VA for his healthcare until about 10 years ago.  He finally sought their help for his prescriptions and was recently diagnosed with cancer.  The VA made things difficult at first and my husband had to take him for treatment to a VA facility over 120 miles away.  He's been there for tests and procedures; there answer at 90 years old was to put him through surgery and remove a kidney. He finally got the VA to pay for treatment locally outside the VA, the local doctor reran tests and is treating him and has opted to keep the kidney and not put him through surgery which he hesitated to do because he felt at his age, odds are, he wouldn't make it. We just recently celebrated his 91st birthday.  A birthday he may have not seen had he not gotten the opinion of another doctor outside the VA. Obviously, the VA has some improving to do. Sad.

[INVAR]

I got mini bars in all 4 bathrooms. I got coke in the powder room.

 

[geronl]

I got mini bars in all 4 bathrooms. I got coke in the powder room.

Considering how much time people spend in them, fountain drink machines might be a good idea.

[Jazzhead]

People would never advocate for Obamacare... Trump/Ryancare or single payer if they had to deal with the military 's version of single payer known as TriCare.

TriCare is single payer, with all the problems with access to, and the rationing of, care that are endemic to single payer.   Neither ObamaCare nor RyanCare are (other than with respect to the Medicaid expansion) single payer.  Each utilizes the private insurance market to provide the choices available to individuals.   

Cynics contend that the ACA was set up to fail, in order to pave the way for single payer.  That's why it is so important to repair the ACA so its individual insurance markets can function.   The alternatives are, indeed, single payer or the abandonment of the commitment to guaranteed issue insurance.   

[INVAR]

Cynics contend that the ACA was set up to fail, in order to pave the way for single payer.

That came from Obama's own mouth in 2003 and again later to a group of his fanatics in 2009.

That's why it is so important to repair the ACA so its individual insurance markets can function.

Impossible to do.  All you advocate is empowering government to pick winners and losers.  We used to call this Fascism.

  The alternatives are, indeed, single payer or the abandonment of the commitment to guaranteed issue insurance.

I'm all for abandonment altogether.  Forcing anyone or any company to provide a service to selected government-approved consumers that will bankrupt them is tyranny, plain and simple.

Get the 800 lb gorilla of Government off our backs and let us make our own damn decisions for ourselves.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Can you cite one government program that has ever been eliminated in this manner? One?

Can you name one that was eliminated your way -- in one fell swoop?  Me neither.

The only entitlement program of signficance that was ever eliminated was AFDC - the quintessential "welfare program" -- as part of the 1996 welfare reforms.  But it wasn't just eliminated "root and branch" -- it was replaced by some other programs that still offered some assistance but eliminated the "entitlement" aspect.  Some might also toss CETA into the mix, which was reformed, downsized (but not eliminated), and renamed by Reagan in 1982.

Pre-reform welfare and CETA were horrible programs for which the votes didn't exist to just repeal completely.  So Reagan (CETA) and Gingrich (welfare reform) reduced them as much as they could.  I assume you opposed welfare reform as well, but I think most of us rightly supported it.

[INVAR]

Can you name one that was eliminated your way -- in one fell swoop?  Me neither.

The only entitlement program of signficance that was ever eliminated was AFDC - the quintessential "welfare program" -- as part of the 1996 welfare reforms.  But it wasn't just eliminated "root and branch" -- it was replaced by some other programs that still offered some assistance but eliminated the "entitlement" aspect.  Some might also toss CETA into the mix, which was reformed, downsized (but not eliminated), and renamed by Reagan in 1982.

Pre-reform welfare and CETA were horrible programs for which the votes didn't exist to just repeal completely.  So Reagan (CETA) and Gingrich (welfare reform) reduced them as much as they could.  I assume you opposed welfare reform as well, but I think most of us rightly supported it.

So you have resigned yourself to surrendering to the belief that Government-Run healthcare is here to stay in perpetuity and simply needs to be managed and propped up with one program after another to create the illusion of downsizing government oversight of every aspect of your life.

Gotcha.

Have fun with that.

[Cyber Liberty]

Can you name one that was eliminated your way -- in one fell swoop?  Me neither.

The only entitlement program of signficance that was ever eliminated was AFDC - the quintessential "welfare program" -- as part of the 1996 welfare reforms.  But it wasn't just eliminated "root and branch" -- it was replaced by some other programs that still offered some assistance but eliminated the "entitlement" aspect.  Some might also toss CETA into the mix, which was reformed, downsized (but not eliminated), and renamed by Reagan in 1982.

Pre-reform welfare and CETA were horrible programs for which the votes didn't exist to just repeal completely.  So Reagan (CETA) and Gingrich (welfare reform) reduced them as much as they could.  I assume you opposed welfare reform as well, but I think most of us rightly supported it.

One of the first things Obama and the Rats did when he was elected was to repeal the welfare reform written by Gingrich.  The same would happen with ObummerCare.

[INVAR]

One of the first things Obama and the Rats did when he was elected was to repeal the welfare reform written by Gingrich.  The same would happen with ObummerCare.

That is because they do not believe what Reagan said was true:  "No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth" - Reagan

They never disappear.  They get renamed, reforged, reapportioned, folded into and otherwise made permanent via some other clever shell game the populace buys into.  And as you mentioned, reforms get repealed and the Statism strengthened to resist any future attempts to shrink it.

It's like a bad weed that will ultimately kill everything in your garden.  If you are dumb enough to leave the roots in place, then it's coming back, worse than before, more resilient than before, and your harvest dwindled and harmed.