Author Topic: Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.  (Read 45305 times)

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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We are a unique nation.  We were born out of ideas, not ethnicity or tribalism.  When the Revolution was won, the Marquis de Lafayette said:

"Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a Country."

I will not just give that country up, cash in my chips, and help shove that country into the abyss on the wild hope that it will magically re-emerge as if it is 1776 all over again.  As you say, human history does not give good odds on that.  So, we have to fight, tooth and nail, to preserve what we have as best as we can, for as long as we can.  Anything else is just nihilism.  And self-congratulatory nihilism as that.

I personally will not discard the sacrifices of all those who came before us by helping to shove this country into a gutter.
Double Amen to that.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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We are a unique nation.  We were born out of ideas, not ethnicity or tribalism.  When the Revolution was won, the Marquis de Lafayette said:

"Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a Country."

I will not just give that country up, cash in my chips, and help shove that country into the abyss on the wild hope that it will magically re-emerge as if it is 1776 all over again.  As you say, human history does not give good odds on that.  So, we have to fight, tooth and nail, to preserve what we have as best as we can, for as long as we can.  Anything else is just nihilism.  And self-congratulatory nihilism as that.

I personally will not discard the sacrifices of all those who came before us by helping to shove this country into a gutter.

 :amen:

Offline Hoodat

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When the Revolution was won, the Marquis de Lafayette said:

"Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a Country."

Freidrich Hayek said

Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure freedom.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Emjay

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Let's put it this way.   Any one of those ""moderates"" that rode the GOP coattails to victory and majority control on the promise of full repeal....and that now are going back on that promise just cuz they think they can.... need to be voted the HELL out as soon as possible.  That's justice, payback and karma.  That is also reality.

This is one reason we need to get another bill out there quickly.  We wouldn't have to scrape something together... I understand a bill was drafted in 2015 that repeals Obamacare.

Once we get it out there, Congress needs to vote on it.  Show their cards...if they won't vote for it, let them explain why.
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Offline Sanguine

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This is one reason we need to get another bill out there quickly.  We wouldn't have to scrape something together... I understand a bill was drafted in 2015 that repeals Obamacare.

Once we get it out there, Congress needs to vote on it.  Show their cards...if they won't vote for it, let them explain why.

@Emjay, they've voted over 50 times to repeal 0bamacare, and both Ted Cruz and Rand Paul have alternate plans.  There is simply no excuse for the bill they presented last week.  None.

Offline Sanguine

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@Emjay, they've voted over 50 times to repeal 0bamacare, and both Ted Cruz and Rand Paul have alternate plans.  There is simply no excuse for the bill they presented last week.  None.

Oh, and there is a bill in committee that could have been moved forward.

Offline Jazzhead

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@Emjay, they've voted over 50 times to repeal 0bamacare, and both Ted Cruz and Rand Paul have alternate plans.  There is simply no excuse for the bill they presented last week.  None.

Sure there's an excuse.   Those other bills won't pass.   The AHCA was likely conservatives' best shot.  Given the numbers, I can't see how a future bill to fix the ACA will be more conservative than the AHCA.   
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 06:22:33 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Emjay

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Oh, and there is a bill in committee that could have been moved forward.

It makes one wonder why they chose to present a bill that the simplest research would have told them would not pass and would not be acceptable to anyone.

So who is responsible for that bad bill?  I know Trump didn't do it himself ... he's not a detail guy ... but who did and who convinced him it would fly?
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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This is one reason we need to get another bill out there quickly.  We wouldn't have to scrape something together... I understand a bill was drafted in 2015 that repeals Obamacare.

Once we get it out there, Congress needs to vote on it.  Show their cards...if they won't vote for it, let them explain why.

That might help.  The potential downside is that it would pass the House, and never come to a vote in the Senate.  And since it will never come to a vote, the no-voters won't have to say "why".

Although to be honest, some of them already have.  I've posted previously comments from 4 Senators saying they will not vote for a bill that does not preserve the expansion of Medicaid to a significant extent.

Offline Emjay

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That might help.  The potential downside is that it would pass the House, and never come to a vote in the Senate.  And since it will never come to a vote, the no-voters won't have to say "why".

Although to be honest, some of them already have.  I've posted previously comments from 4 Senators saying they will not vote for a bill that does not preserve the expansion of Medicaid to a significant extent.

Are you saying we can never get anything passed?  And why does Medicaid need to be expanded? 
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

geronl

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Because a lot of people here are WHIIINERS.  Like on the old SNL show.  They are so determined to prove they were right in not wanting Trump, they refuse to give him the slightest break.


Just because he declares conservatives the enemy and says he's going to primary them doesn't make him bad. lol

Offline Hoodat

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Sure there's an excuse.   Those other bills won't pass.

Kind of like this bill, eh?


Given the numbers, I can't see how a future bill to fix the ACA will be more conservative than the AHCA.

Which is why we should never even consider for a second fixing Obamacare.  Yet for some reason, you seem to be obsessed with it.  Most people here reject socialized health care, while you continue to embrace it.

The Republican majority was elected to do one thing and one thing only - repeal Obamacare.  Yet you demand that they fix the unfix-able.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

geronl

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Sure there's an excuse.   Those other bills won't pass.   The AHCA was likely conservatives' best shot. 

The 2015 bill had near-universal GOP support.

The AHCA was a poorly thought-out, rushed POS that was never going to pass.

So, let's review which one of these is "conservative's best shot".

Offline Emjay

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Just because he declares conservatives the enemy and says he's going to primary them doesn't make him bad. lol

Well, you captured that comment from a different subject.  I think it was probably a tweet or something.

I don't know if Trump can right the ship or if he'll just disable the communications and get fed to the shark.

Trump is a weird guy.   He's kinda like Doctor Donald and Mister Trump.  I think Mister Trump has the upper hand early in the day because he cannot sleep and obsesses about wrongs, real and imaginary, in the wee hours.  Then he gets up before dawn and tweets.

Most of the damage he's done lately has been in foolish and threatening tweets.

I don't know if reason takes over as the day goes on or what.  I'm still trying to figure him out.

I never wanted Trump to get the nomination but since he did and was elected, I was hoping he could make it work.

I guess we'll see.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Bigun

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Oh, and there is a bill in committee that could have been moved forward.

It is the same with tax reform.  There is an honest true reform bill languishing in W&M.  Instead of that we will get another round of tinkering around the edges of the Marxist income tax that will be played up as "reform".

That's how they do things in Washington these days.  Throw the great unwashed a crumb or two and tell them its nirvana.  They will buy it hook, line, and sinker.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Do you demand Christ-like perfection out of new believers or let them grow and change over time. You can't just jump to destinations. At some point it becomes simply asking the impossible, which is pointless however "right" it may be.

Destination is predetermined based on both biblical, moral and historical fact when we have deviated from the right path set before us.  We are supposed to strive for perfection and overcome our imperfections, not accommodate them and settle for existing alongside them. 

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" - Deuteronomy 30:19

God made things pretty plain in terms of consequences that will come when breaking and living in opposition to His Laws.  Likewise, there are laws of physics and laws of economics and laws of societal morality.  When we break those laws - consequences will come, even if delayed by kicking the can down the road.

My own kids were told that there were consequences that would come from bad behavior, and that if they chose those behaviors, they would suffer those consequences.  And, when they did bad behavior - I did not save them from the consequences they earned.  I forgave them when they were sorry and when they worked to change that bad behavior.

Either one stops the bad behavior, or the consequences are going to manifest themselves over time, if they are not suffered immediately.  Usually the longer it takes to arrest the bad behavior, the more permanent the consequential damage.

So it is true of a society.


Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Emjay

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It is the same with tax reform.  There is an honest true reform bill languishing in W&M.  Instead of that we will get another round of tinkering around the edges of the Marxist income tax that will be played up as "reform".

That's how they do things in Washington these days.  Throw the great unwashed a crumb or two and tell them its nirvana.  They will buy it hook, line, and sinker.

I've read so many comments like this lately.

Where is the joy?  The hope, the optimism; the willingness to work until you achieve the goal.

We've come a ways since Obama ... he had everything: the house, the Senate; a lot of governors and a real mean streak.

We now have a Republican president (who is a work in progress, admittedly) the House, the Senate and a majority of governors.

We have become a far more conservative country and we can get things done but don't expect it before you wake up tomorrow.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Destination is predetermined based on both biblical, moral and historical fact when we have deviated from the right path set before us.  We are supposed to strive for perfection and overcome our imperfections, not accommodate them and settle for existing alongside them. 

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" - Deuteronomy 30:19

God made things pretty plain in terms of consequences that will come when breaking and living in opposition to His Laws.  Likewise, there are laws of physics and laws of economics and laws of societal morality.  When we break those laws - consequences will come, even if delayed by kicking the can down the road.

My own kids were told that there were consequences that would come from bad behavior, and that if they chose those behaviors, they would suffer those consequences.  And, when they did bad behavior - I did not save them from the consequences they earned.  I forgave them when they were sorry and when they worked to change that bad behavior.

Either one stops the bad behavior, or the consequences are going to manifest themselves over time, if they are not suffered immediately.  Usually the longer it takes to arrest the bad behavior, the more permanent the consequential damage.

So it is true of a society.
See you didn't' give up on your kids when they were working to get better. Same principle. 
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Bigun

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I've read so many comments like this lately.

Where is the joy?  The hope, the optimism; the willingness to work until you achieve the goal.

We've come a ways since Obama ... he had everything: the house, the Senate; a lot of governors and a real mean streak.

We now have a Republican president (who is a work in progress, admittedly) the House, the Senate and a majority of governors.

We have become a far more conservative country and we can get things done but don't expect it before you wake up tomorrow.

You read them because many have finally caught on to the beltway game.  I'm sick of the bastards and I don't much care which party label they wear.  I spent 40+ years in the trenches trying to change things with little success.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 07:46:55 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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I hope your fans here read this, and realize exactly what you are advocating.  Maybe not all of them are willing to follow you so merrily into your abyss.

'My abyss'????  Look bub, the consequences of stupidity and Statism are coming whether you want to pretend they will happen or not. You demand we capitulate to tyranny and accept the entire premise that it is our job to compromise with tyranny because we do not have votes to overcome it.  Somehow because a few people refuse to compromise and surrender their principles to have the crown of Government-run Healthcare put on their heads -  we have doomed society to the 'abyss'.

You are arguing like a liberal.


By the way, what makes you so certain that after we hit "rock bottom", and force our kids to dwell down there, we'll actually pick up with your ideas?  You have said before that you see yourself as a "witness" to all this, and that nobody will be able to say that you didn't tell them this would happen.

To paraphrase what God warned of in Deuteronomy 30:19 - we had set before us, liberty or tyranny.  Therefore choose liberty that our descendants might be free.

Choosing 30% of liberty and 70% tyranny  because that is all we can hope for - is stupid if liberty is indeed the objective.

But what you're apparently not recognizing is that 99.99999% of this country doesn't know who you are, and doesn't care what you say.  You're "warning" is not being heard by anyone except those who already agree with you.

LOL!  But what about my 'Abyss' that you just said everyone was following me into??   If I am so inconsequential (and I agree with you that I am), why are you so bent out of shape that I post my opinions and statements in regards to where this country is going to end up?

And even if the majority of the country did actually hear you, one of the core features of liberalism (according to von Hayek, and I think he was right), is that they always blame their failures on their opponents not giving them enough power. 

So why are you giving them more power to begin with?  You surrendered the entire premise of liberty by willing to compromise with tyranny, which I assume you do not recognize. You seem to proceed from the position and premise that ObamaCare is perfectly legitimate, lawful and righteous and was achieved by lawful means that did not involve corruption, secrecy, coercion, threat and imposition, and we simply have to accept it and do away with this silly notion to end it.

So it is entirely possible that the failure of democratic socialism will be outright violent communism, or thug-o-cratic fascism, anarcho-syndicalism, or some other orthodoxy that is even more foul than the one that currently plagues us.

And yet you get pissed off at me for asserting and announcing these are the consequences and achievements this country is sowing for itself?

or is it that you are pissed off that I'm not lending a hand to support half-measures and olive branch petitions to hold off those inevitable consequences a little while longer?

We could head into your abyss, and never emerge.

Such is the fate of all Republics and all democracies that abandon their foundational principles and accept ideas anathema to their charters. There is not a single one that has not committed suicide.

But if that is what this people and their representatives want - that is what they will have.  I have no power to stop everyone from leaping off the cliff.  You said so yourself.

So I simply write and say what I do as a witness.  We will have no excuse.

“The people of America have now the best opportunity and the greatest trust in their hands that Providence ever committed to so small a number, since the transgression of the first pair (Adam and Eve); if they betray this trust, their guilt will merit even greater punishment than other nations have suffered, and the indignation Heaven." - John Adams 1787
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Are you saying we can never get anything passed?  And why does Medicaid need to be expanded?
Medicaid already was expanded under Obamacare.   That's what I'm referring to.

These are four Republican Senators who have insisted that the Medicaid expansion contained in Obamacare be preserved.  Therefore, you are not going to be able to get a complete repeal of Obamacare through the Senate because those four senators will not support such a bill.

It does seem as though these four Senators were willing to agree to convert the Medicaid entitlement expansion to a state block grant, along with a promise that the block grants would not be reduced through 20 20. But that at least leaves open the prospect of reducing the grants in the future and also means that they are not an entitlement. The big difference there is that entitlements do not need to be appropriated each year and block grants do. So it is much easier to reduce a block grant than it is to reduce an entitlement.

In any case, my point is that those insisting on nothing less than a complete repeal are just ignoring the publicly announced position of those four senators requiring some retention of the Obamacare Medicaid expansion

Offline Sanguine

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It ishttp://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1277656;topic=255662.625;last_msg=1277701# the same with tax reform.  There is an honest true reform bill languishing in W&M.  Instead of that we will get another round of tinkering around the edges of the Marxist income tax that will be played up as "reform".

That's how they do things in Washington these days.  Throw the great unwashed a crumb or two and tell them its nirvana.  They will buy it hook, line, and sinker.

Well, I had a shower this morning and I'm not buying it!

 :soangry:


Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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'My abyss'????  Look bub, the consequences of stupidity and Statism are coming whether you want to pretend they will happen or not. You demand we capitulate to tyranny and accept the entire premise that it is our job to compromise with tyranny because we do not have votes to overcome it.  Somehow because a few people refuse to compromise and surrender their principles to have the crown of Government-run Healthcare put on their heads -  we have doomed society to the 'abyss'.

You are arguing like a liberal.


To paraphrase what God warned of in Deuteronomy 30:19 - we had set before us, liberty or tyranny.  Therefore choose liberty that our descendants might be free.

Choosing 30% of liberty and 70% tyranny  because that is all we can hope for - is stupid if liberty is indeed the objective.

LOL!  But what about my 'Abyss' that you just said everyone was following me into??   If I am so inconsequential (and I agree with you that I am), why are you so bent out of shape that I post my opinions and statements in regards to where this country is going to end up?

So why are you giving them more power to begin with?  You surrendered the entire premise of liberty by willing to compromise with tyranny, which I assume you do not recognize. You seem to proceed from the position and premise that ObamaCare is perfectly legitimate, lawful and righteous and was achieved by lawful means that did not involve corruption, secrecy, coercion, threat and imposition, and we simply have to accept it and do away with this silly notion to end it.

And yet you get pissed off at me for asserting and announcing these are the consequences and achievements this country is sowing for itself?

or is it that you are pissed off that I'm not lending a hand to support half-measures and olive branch petitions to hold off those inevitable consequences a little while longer?

Such is the fate of all Republics and all democracies that abandon their foundational principles and accept ideas anathema to their charters. There is not a single one that has not committed suicide.

But if that is what this people and their representatives want - that is what they will have.  I have no power to stop everyone from leaping off the cliff.  You said so yourself.

So I simply write and say what I do as a witness.  We will have no excuse.

“The people of America have now the best opportunity and the greatest trust in their hands that Providence ever committed to so small a number, since the transgression of the first pair (Adam and Eve); if they betray this trust, their guilt will merit even greater punishment than other nations have suffered, and the indignation Heaven." - John Adams 1787

Aren't you overlooking all of the Kings God blessed in Judah even if they didn't bring the nation all the way back to where it had been udner David; He even his stayed his of judgement on Ahab when he turned (sort of).
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline INVAR

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See you didn't' give up on your kids when they were working to get better. Same principle.

Is it?

If my kid was doing crack - I shouldn't give up on him because he is only smoking two crack pipes a day instead of ten?

We used to call that 'enabling'.

And I have no part in enabling bad behavior.

Aren't you overlooking all of the Kings God blessed in Judah even if they didn't bring the nation all the way back to where it had been udner David; He even his stayed his of judgement on Ahab when he turned (sort of).
Repentance came first.  That meant ending the wicked and sinful practices that were antithetical to what Gods' laws laid down.

Did the consequences and judgment named upon Judah for their sins eventually come or not?

Every single time Israel and Judah abandoned God or compromised God's Laws with those practices anathema to what was laid down as foundational - they were ultimately destroyed and sent into slavery.

The consequences for compromising with practices and ideas contrary to the foundational principles and laws agreed to, always come upon a people - and none escape.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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@Emjay

I've read so many comments like this lately.

Where is the joy?  The hope, the optimism; the willingness to work until you achieve the goal.

That's a pretty profound point that raises a bunch of issues.  To answer it directly, I think it is because those arguing for all or nothing probably believe that means nothing, and are resigned to that.  There is no joy because they are already defeated.

As a broader point, it makes me think that some people treat politics like religion - that faith and purity themselves are virtues, and an end in themselves. 

But politics is, and should be, different.  We all (well, most of us) have lives outside politics, that include family, friends, hobbies, work, and religion.  We should be able to be happy even if the nation's politics are not exactly what we would prefer.   The goal of politics is to establish policies that maximize the potential for happiness, so it is a continuum, not an absolute standard.  It is a means, not an end in itself.

So okay, we don't live in a perfectly free, laissez-faire society.  But that doesn't make our lives without meaning or value otherwise, or that we can't still be happy.  We can still try to live the best, more free lives possible, both for ourselves and our children.  And that's the problem with the "all or nothing" approach, because if ideological purity for its own sake results in a society that is less free than if you'd accepted something less, what have you gained?  Your kids now live in a worse country, with less of a chance for success and happiness.  And so do you.

If all we're doing is fighting a rearguard action, that is still worthwhile, because it means our children will get to live in a somewhat better country than they would have if we just gave up.  We still fight.  We get big victories if we can, small ones if that's all we can get, and try to make our defeats as small as possible.  And if we're really on the road that inevitably leads to serfdom, then isn't it best to resist that as long as possible, to preserve as much as can be preserved for as long as it can be preserved?  We can still lead good lives, and obtain happiness.  Even if our society is not as ideologically pure as some might wish.  Politics is not religion.

I'd add that the Declaration of Independence didn't promise us a state of happiness or perfection.  Happiness is something we're supposed to pursue, to work for.  Which means sometimes life isn't going to give us what we want, and we're going to have to struggle for the best we can get.  But this whole defeatist mindset -- this "if we don't have perfect liberty we don't have any liberty at all" is simply madness.  It is a blackness of the soul, and a recipe for misery for those who elevate politics to religion.

Screw that.  I think we should fight for the best political environment we can obtain, even if it isn't perfect, and enjoy the hell out of the rest of our lives.