Author Topic: Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.  (Read 45305 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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All of it, obviously.  We've been trying to drill that reality into their brains here at the forum for far too long now.  I think it's time to admit defeat and stop trying.  Either they are incapable of gleening the effing obvious... that the promise to repeal needs to be kept first....or they are unwilling to accept that truth.  Either way, it's a waste of time and energy.  (Like arguing with a leftie always is)

Generic Republican Congresscritter: "Now look, I know we told you we were going to repeal Obamacare...but what you folks think repeal means and what WE think repeal means are two completely different things..."
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 04:43:51 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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We've been trying to drill that reality into their brains here at the forum for far too long now. 

What "reality" is that?  The "reality" appears to be that there are enough members of the Tuesday group who oppose complete repeal to prevent it from happening.  You can call them liars, betrayers, RINO's, liberals, RATS, or whatever perjorative you want.  You can claim (wrongly) that each of them promised a full repeal, and should be held to that.  That all makes nice chest-beating on a message board, but it isn't going to get the GOP to 218 votes in the House, or to 50 in the Senate.

That's reality.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Generic Republican Congresscritter: "Now look, I know we told you we were going to repeal Obamacare...but what you folks think repeal means and what WE think real means are two completely different things..."

So what?

So what if everything you just said is true, and the Tuesday Group is a bunch of lying hypocrites?  Pointing that out still isn't going to get us to 218 votes.

Offline INVAR

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The Mob's thugs take control of our town, and come by each week and rough us up and rob us and our businesses for 'protection money'.  We want it stopped. In total.  Completely.

And the new Sheriff in town whom we just put there for the purpose of stopping this weekly robbery, makes a deal with the Mob and tells us that we will get a 20% reduction in the amount they take each week and that we should shut up, eat our peas and take this offer, because this is all the relief from tyranny that we are going to get.

We are told that this 'tax' we have to hand over to the Mob is now permanent, and we should get used to it and be grateful we are able to keep just a little bit more of what is stolen from us.

It's the price we are told we have to pay now that the Mob has control of the town.

You become permanent victims and never get your liberty back because you have submitted to "reality".
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Hoodat

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What is the "brand new entitlement?"

Refundable tax credits, meaning that people who don't even have jobs or pay taxes will be getting 'refund' [sic] checks from the IRS.


The problem is that the moderates of the Tuesday Group don't get it, and they have the votes to stop it.  How do you propose getting around that?

In a few months, these same so-called 'moderates' will be voting to fund Obamacare for another year with taxpayer money.  And not a single Conservative is to blame for that.  So let's stop with the lie that Conservatives are going to have to vote in favor of giving up two-thirds of the loaf while baking a few croissants in addition while moderates aren't willing to give up a damn thing when it comes to the product we have right now.
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Offline txradioguy

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So what?

So what if everything you just said is true, and the Tuesday Group is a bunch of lying hypocrites?  Pointing that out still isn't going to get us to 218 votes.

Bashing and blaming 18 members of the Freedom Caucus isn't either.  It wasn't their votes that killed this completely awful bill.

Not that it seems to really matter to you and a few others here.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Amen.  The First Marine Division was lucky that it had O.P. Smith in command, who could see the stupidity of MacArthur and Almond's overly-aggressive plan, and so deliberately dragged his feet on the advance.  If he hadn't, the entire division would have been cutoff and annihilated.

But in this case, we're not even talking about a retreat at all.  We're talking about an advance.  It's not as far an advance as some would prefer, but it is certainly better than doing nothing, and much better than a retreat.
Your post from the other day really had me thinking. One of the problems with Republicans is they tend to rest on their laurels whenever they do get a victory. Democrats always want more, give them a tax increase and they'll squeal it isn't enough. But at the end of the day they'll sulk and say "fine will take it, but we want more".

 It should be possible for a politician to have a deep abiding love of freedom and be willing to work at it incrementally too, but they seem very rare. They get something minor done and they say: this is enough, look what we did.

Maybe it's just a worldview problem. Democrats activists have an amazing amount of anger and hatred driving them and they are willing to bend and break any rules they can get away with to win. 

“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline XenaLee

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What "reality" is that?  The "reality" appears to be that there are enough members of the Tuesday group who oppose complete repeal to prevent it from happening.  You can call them liars, betrayers, RINO's, liberals, RATS, or whatever perjorative you want.  You can claim (wrongly) that each of them promised a full repeal, and should be held to that.  That all makes nice chest-beating on a message board, but it isn't going to get the GOP to 218 votes in the House, or to 50 in the Senate.

That's reality.

Let's put it this way.   Any one of those ""moderates"" that rode the GOP coattails to victory and majority control on the promise of full repeal....and that now are going back on that promise just cuz they think they can.... need to be voted the HELL out as soon as possible.  That's justice, payback and karma.  That is also reality.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Sanguine

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Nobody is advocating submitting to the other side. They are advocating taking half a loaf rather than none.  Moving the ball in the right direction, even if it is not as far as you'd like, it not "submitting".

If you insist on all or nothing, you'll get nothing.  And sorry, but the only people who support that are defeatists who believe we've already lost.  In which case, you're no longer an ally of those who wish to keep fighting.

It's rarely a binary decision.  There's almost always a third (or fourth or fifth) option. 

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Let's put it this way.   Any one of those ""moderates"" that rode the GOP coattails to victory and majority control on the promise of full repeal....and that now are going back on that promise just cuz they think they can.... need to be voted the HELL out as soon as possible.  That's justice, payback and karma.  That is also reality.

There's only one way to expose the duplicitous members who promise one way and deliver another:  Have votes, even though we know they will not pass, so we can get the liars on record.  It's hard to throw them out in elections when Leadership won't make them take any sort of stand.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Refundable tax credits, meaning that people who don't even have jobs or pay taxes will be getting 'refund' [sic] checks from the IRS.

But those same people were already getting direct subsidy payments from the federal government.  So it's not a new entitlement -- it's taking the current direct subsidy and converting it to a tax credit.  At worst, it's no change at all, but in fact the amounts of the tax credits are actually going to be much less than the amount of the current subsidy.  Democrats and the media are highly pissed about that.  So it is an improvement from the status quo.

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In a few months, these same so-called 'moderates' will be voting to fund Obamacare for another year with taxpayer money.   And not a single Conservative is to blame for that.

Oh, goody.  So we'll still have ObamaCare, it's just that we won't get blamed for it.  Actually, we will, but that's not even the point.  The point is that full-throated ObamaCare, with individual mandates, business mandates, and Medicaid expansion as an entitlement will still be there in full-force.  Somehow, that doesn't give me much comfort.  At some point, we have to actually move the ball in our direction at least some distance.  Because if we don't, the Rats are going to get back in control, and run the ball further in the other direction.

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So let's stop with the lie that Conservatives are going to have to vote in favor of giving up two-thirds of the loaf while baking a few croissants in addition while moderates aren't willing to give up a damn thing when it comes to the product we have right now.

I'll take two-thirds of ObamaCare over full ObamaCare every day of the weak.  And what the moderates are giving up is the Medicaid expansion being a permanent individual entitlement.  Along with giving up the business mandate/tax.  Maybe that is nothing to you, but it isn't to me.


Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Let's put it this way.   Any one of those ""moderates"" that rode the GOP coattails to victory and majority control on the promise of full repeal....and that now are going back on that promise just cuz they think they can.... need to be voted the HELL out as soon as possible.

Well, given that most of them actually ran on preserving parts of ObamaCare, you're not going to get rid of them that easily.  And if the GOP passes nothing by 2018, we'll lose the House.  So, perhaps you'll get your wish and some of them will be gone.  But we won't have a majority anymore, so it won't matter. 

Quote
That's justice, payback and karma.

In other words, nothing except smug satisfaction.  A "moral" victory, but practical defeat.  Because the law that all of us hate will still be fully on the books in all its glory, and we'll have squandered our only shot at repealing any of it.

Offline XenaLee

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There's only one way to expose the duplicitous members who promise one way and deliver another:  Have votes, even though we know they will not pass, so we can get the liars on record.  It's hard to throw them out in elections when Leadership won't make them take any sort of stand.

True.  And after they have been forced to go "on record"...instead of rewarding them with yet another term, get them the hell out.  Let them know that their vote against fulfilling their promises will have consequences.  The problem has been.... too little or no consequences for their 'always siding with the Dems votes' (See:  Olympia Snow, Susan Collins, etc.).  That is how most of the remaining RINOs have managed to hang on.  The left's hijacking of the GOP has been and is still well underway.   That needs to come to a screeching halt, if at all possible.  I'm just hoping and praying that their hijacking campaign didn't have a hidden plan that only conspiracy theorists may have considered.  If so, we're screwed.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline DB

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The Mob's thugs take control of our town, and come by each week and rough us up and rob us and our businesses for 'protection money'.  We want it stopped. In total.  Completely.

And the new Sheriff in town whom we just put there for the purpose of stopping this weekly robbery, makes a deal with the Mob and tells us that we will get a 20% reduction in the amount they take each week and that we should shut up, eat our peas and take this offer, because this is all the relief from tyranny that we are going to get.

We are told that this 'tax' we have to hand over to the Mob is now permanent, and we should get used to it and be grateful we are able to keep just a little bit more of what is stolen from us.

It's the price we are told we have to pay now that the Mob has control of the town.

You become permanent victims and never get your liberty back because you have submitted to "reality".

I agree completely. And I'll add that once this stuff is in place more people become accustom to the federal government doing these sort of things and it becomes "normal". That new normal then expands into what wasn't normal in other areas as well. Either you close the door on it ASAP or you don't and it takes hold and grows like a cancer.

Offline XenaLee

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Well, given that most of them actually ran on preserving parts of ObamaCare, you're not going to get rid of them that easily.  And if the GOP passes nothing by 2018, we'll lose the House.  So, perhaps you'll get your wish and some of them will be gone.  But we won't have a majority anymore, so it won't matter. 

In other words, nothing except smug satisfaction.  A "moral" victory, but practical defeat.  Because the law that all of us hate will still be fully on the books in all its glory, and we'll have squandered our only shot at repealing any of it.

Nothing smug about it, but your lame snark is duly noted.

Bottom line.... if the idiots in the GOP do not fully repeal Obamacare as they promised .... they'll lose to the Democrats in next election anyway.  Which is probably why some of those ahole ""moderates"" (I call em RINOs) are digging in and refusing to repeal Obamacare.   Funny how that works.


No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline INVAR

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So let's stop with the lie that Conservatives are going to have to vote in favor of giving up two-thirds of the loaf while baking a few croissants in addition while moderates aren't willing to give up a damn thing when it comes to the product we have right now.

What I find amusing, is that we would be having this very same argument - if say Congress had ... as Pelosi once said they should do: DEEM OBAMACARE PASSED without a vote at all.  And let's pretend SCOTUS and Roberts ruled via another magic trick to make 'deeming the bill passed without a vote' Constitutional...... We would today still be admonished that we need to suck it up, and be glad for 10% of a loaf to end tyranny,  than in getting no loaf at all.

I say no loaf at all. 

Let the consequences of ObamaCare be fully reaped, and then we can fight amidst the ruins over whether we return to the free market, or put government in control of all healthcare via single payer.

Because all these small hoped-for "baby steps" in returning what was stolen from us, is simply conditioning us to accept tyranny and Statism and transfers the ownership of said tyranny to those who did not even vote for it.

The Reckoning is coming.  Laws of economics have declared that long ago.  Eventually, sometime soon- those consequences are going to crush everything, and the further we kick the can down the road - the more crushing and the more devastating those consequences are going to be.

Enshrining a new entitlement into permanence is only going to exacerbate the horrors to come.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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@Idaho_Cowboy

Your post from the other day really had me thinking. One of the problems with Republicans is they tend to rest on their laurels whenever they do get a victory. Democrats always want more, give them a tax increase and they'll squeal it isn't enough. But at the end of the day they'll sulk and say "fine will take it, but we want more".

Yeah, I think I called it "relentless incrementalism".  Unlike Republicans, they'll take every little tiny victory they can get, then immediately push for more.  Perfect example is how the Progressive Caucus caved on the public option when the ACA was being debated.  Their preferred bill was the "Affordable Health Care for Americans Act", which included the public option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act

From their perspective, ObamaCare wasn't nearly enough because it still was insurance-based, etc..  But they knew if they could get those subsidies and Medicaid expansion in there, they'd be advancing the concept of health care as an entitlement.  Some of them even admitted that ObamaCare would fail, but it would then be easier to convince people to accept single payer.  The point is that they understood that moving in the right direction was critical, even if the move wasn't as much as they wanted.  So, the progressives agreed to support the ACA rather than have no bill at all.  And that turned out to be a very smart move by their caucus.

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It should be possible for a politician to have a deep abiding love of freedom and be willing to work at it incrementally too, but they seem very rare. They get something minor done and they say: this is enough, look what we did.

The left never stops.   The only way to fight them is the same way -- bits and pieces at a time if necessary.  We have never before, in our entire history, reversed an individual entitlement program.  Ryan's bill actually did that.  Not the full repeal of the entire bill that hard-liners demand -- at that I also prefer personally, but it was still something of real significance.  And you get that, and then immediately press for more, via rulemaking authority and more legislation.  And it's easier to do that then because the GOP will have established some credibility that it can actually pass things that don't lead to the horrible results predicted by Democrats.  Once that ball gets rolling, it's much easier to keep it rolling and accelerate it.  But you've got to get it rolling in the first place.

That's how you obtain actual change, as opposed to achieving nothing but sitting back smugly in your moral superiority.  Maybe we'll be lucky, and some kind of agreement that moves things in our direction will eventually be struck.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 05:28:15 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I say no loaf at all. 

Of course you do.  You have already stated your absolute conviction that we are doomed and that everything will fall apart.  So for you, the faster we hit bottom, the better.

Offline INVAR

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I agree completely. And I'll add that once this stuff is in place more people become accustom to the federal government doing these sort of things and it becomes "normal". That new normal then expands into what wasn't normal in other areas as well. Either you close the door on it ASAP or you don't and it takes hold and grows like a cancer.

A little leaven, leavens the entire lump.

That is true of sin, and that is also true of Socialism and tyranny.

We leave just a little - and the entire loaf is fundamentally transformed.

Which, apparently is already a done deal given how much excuse-making and demands for keeping Socialism and tyranny we are hearing from even people who self-identify as being on 'the right'.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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And I'll add that once this stuff is in place more people become accustom to the federal government doing these sort of things and it becomes "normal".

I absolutely agree with you.  And the most dangerous part of ObamaCare was never the federal management of insurance, but rather the expansion of Medicaid into a new entitlement program covering millions of new people.  The bill that was proposed would have ended its status as a federal entitlement, and converted it to block grants to states.  Then you're free to reduce that amount year to year.  It is absolutely essential that new entitlement be repealed as quickly as possible, and that was the biggest thing in Ryan's bill.  Yet, there apparently is a majority in this thread who are willing to throw that away and take nothing instead, because the rest of the bill didn't go far enough.

Offline INVAR

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Of course you do.  You have already stated your absolute conviction that we are doomed and that everything will fall apart.  So for you, the faster we hit bottom, the better.

The only way addicts ever get clean of dependence is to hit complete bottom and in the midst of the destruction their own choices have wrought, wake up and realize if they do not stop and overcome it - they are going to die.

And one does not overcome an addiction by continuing to partake in their dependence.

This adage also applies to sin as well. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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The only way addicts ever get clean of dependence is to hit complete bottom and in the midst of the destruction their own choices have wrought, wake up and realize if they do not stop and overcome it - they are going to die.

I hope your fans here read this, and realize exactly what you are advocating.  Maybe not all of them are willing to follow you so merrily into your abyss.

By the way, what makes you so certain that after we hit "rock bottom", and force our kids to dwell down there, we'll actually pick up with your ideas?  You have said before that you see yourself as a "witness" to all this, and that nobody will be able to say that you didn't tell them this would happen.

But what you're apparently not recognizing is that 99.99999% of this country doesn't know who you are, and doesn't care what you say.  You're "warning" is not being heard by anyone except those who already agree with you.  And even if the majority of the country did actually hear you, one of the core features of liberalism (according to von Hayek, and I think he was right), is that they always blame their failures on their opponents not giving them enough power.  So it is entirely possible that the failure of democratic socialism will be outright violent communism, or thug-o-cratic fascism, anarcho-syndicalism, or some other orthodoxy that is even more foul than the one that currently plagues us.

We could head into your abyss, and never emerge.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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The only way addicts ever get clean of dependence is to hit complete bottom and in the midst of the destruction their own choices have wrought, wake up and realize if they do not stop and overcome it - they are going to die.

And one does not overcome an addiction by continuing to partake in their dependence.

This adage also applies to sin as well.
Usually I agree with you @INVAR, but at some point there's we have to make sure we have our taget identification figured out. To use another example. Do you demand Christ-like perfection out of new believers or let them grow and change over time. You can't just jump to destinations. At some point it becomes simply asking the impossible, which is pointless however "right" it may be.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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I hope your fans here read this, and realize exactly what you are advocating.  Maybe not all of them are willing to follow you so merrily into your abyss.

By the way, what makes you so certain that after we hit "rock bottom", and force our kids to dwell down there, we'll actually pick up with your ideas?  You have said before that you see yourself as a "witness" to all this, and that nobody will be able to say that you didn't tell them this would happen.

But what you're apparently not recognizing is that 99.99999% of this country doesn't know who you are, and doesn't care what you say.  You're "warning" is not being heard by anyone except those who already agree with you.  And even if the majority of the country did actually hear you, one of the core features of liberalism (according to von Hayek, and I think he was right), is that they always blame their failures on their opponents not giving them enough power.  So it is entirely possible that the failure of democratic socialism will be outright violent communism, or thug-o-cratic fascism, anarcho-syndicalism, or some other orthodoxy that is even more foul than the one that currently plagues us.

We could head into your abyss, and never emerge.
History tells us most countries/civilizations don't. After enough destruction people embrace the strong man savior type and things get even worse.

Generally speaking people don't take up arms till they get hungry and hungry mobs don't make good decisions.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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History tells us most countries/civilizations don't. After enough destruction people embrace the strong man savior type and things get even worse.

Generally speaking people don't take up arms till they get hungry and hungry mobs don't make good decisions.

We are a unique nation.  We were born out of ideas, not ethnicity or tribalism.  When the Revolution was won, the Marquis de Lafayette said:

"Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a Country."

I will not just give that country up, cash in my chips, and help shove that country into the abyss on the wild hope that it will magically re-emerge as if it is 1776 all over again.  As you say, human history does not give good odds on that.  So, we have to fight, tooth and nail, to preserve what we have as best as we can, for as long as we can.  Anything else is just nihilism.  And self-congratulatory nihilism as that.

I personally will not discard the sacrifices of all those who came before us by helping to shove this country into a gutter.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 05:55:16 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »