Author Topic: Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.  (Read 45312 times)

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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I just want to point out that the AHCA would have repealed the employer mandate, and repealed the individual mandate, so you wouldn't be fined for not having a policy.  More importantly, one of the last compromises offered would have eliminated the "essential health benefits", which were a big reason that the costs ran up on policies because policies were required to offer certain things that a great many people didn't want.

It honestly would have made legally viable, once again, the kind of policies a lot of people had prior to ObamaCare.

There's some confusion.  I thought the new, improved AHCA bill still had the "Individual Shared Responsibility Payment," but instead of being tax to the government it was to go to the insurance companies.  I could be wrong about this, Google is not helpful.
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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You do not leave parts of the tumor in the patient because it is the best you can get in negotiating with your surgeon.

You cut it all out, not leave the pieces that are too hard to dislodge from the body.

It's a flawed analogy.  We're not talking about a patient, who has an individual, sovereign right to make all decisions about their own body.  We're talking about a representative republic, where each citizen has their own views and who very often do not agree.  It's not even a hive-mind -- it is hundreds of millions of individuals whose elected representatives must find majority agreement before anything can be done at all.

In any case, you've already stated that a majority of Americans are communists.  If so, you have to believe that what you are advocating cannot possibly be passed into law.  You're admitted purpose in discussing these issues is not to propose solutions that might help, because you believe we're already lost.  You're only purpose is to be a "witness" to it -- those are your own words.  You want people to become more and more miserable so you can sit back and say "see, I told you so!"  And I'm not even exaggerating.

I can't figure out why anyone would pay attention to any of your policy recommendations.  You're deliberately trying to drill holes in the bottom of a leaky boat, while the rest of us are trying to plug them and bail like hell.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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You do not leave parts of the tumor in the patient because it is the best you can get in negotiating with your surgeon. You cut it all out, not leave the pieces that are too hard to dislodge from the body.

Well, if we were discussing medical procedures @INVAR, I would agree with you.  But we are talking about political processes ... and refighting battles already lost is counterproductive. Obamacare shifted the paradigm you're still clinging to. We all will be better served if we stop looking behind us for the battlefield that was and fight on the battlefield that is.

Imagine if the patriots of 1775 kept refighting the Battles of Lexington and Concord hoping for a different outcome.  Not only would we have continued to lose the battles, we would have ultimately lost the war.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Excellent post,  Thank you @Maj. Bill Martin

Thanks.  The biggest problem the HFC had with the bill was that it continued subsidizing some folks ability to afford insurance via tax credits.  But in terms of reduction in regulation on what policies could be offered, the ending of the mandates, etc., it was very positive.

The one objection I found really odd was to how the AHCA dealt with guaranteed issue without having an individual mandate.  Essentially, it said that you weren't going to be required to buy insurance, but if you deliberately let it lapse and then tried to get guaranteed issues (gaming the system, in essence.) there was going to be a penalty.  That seems like a pretty fair - and conservative - way of addressing the issue, but some conservatives didn't like it.


Offline Jazzhead

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There's some confusion.  I thought the new, improved AHCA bill still had the "Individual Shared Responsibility Payment," but instead of being tax to the government it was to go to the insurance companies.  I could be wrong about this, Google is not helpful.

Yes, you're wrong.  The AHCA would have repealed the individual mandate.   The IRS would no longer be snooping into whether you've purchased health insurance.  Instead, as Major Bill points out, insurance companies would be able to charge free riders higher rates.   I agree with him that that's a fundamentally CONSERVATIVE approach.   
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Offline INVAR

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Obamacare shifted the paradigm you're still clinging to.

You go ahead then and cling to the new paradigm of Communism and tyranny you have surrendered to as your new normal.

I'll cling to liberty, my guns, my religion or die.

Clear it up any for you?
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Offline txradioguy

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Yes, you're wrong.  The AHCA would have repealed the individual mandate.   The IRS would no longer be snooping into whether you've purchased health insurance.  Instead, as Major Bill points out, insurance companies would be able to charge free riders higher rates.   I agree with him that that's a fundamentally CONSERVATIVE approach.

There is nothing conservative at all about the Government running health care in any form.

Quote
The fact that a clean repeal could actually preserve insurance coverage for more Americans underscores the complexities and tradeoffs in health care policy, where an imbalanced mix of policy carrots and sticks can lead to a perfect storm of market chaos.

Full-fledged Obamacare repeal without a replacement would lead different people to lose coverage compared with the AHCA, as the Times notes. For instance, the AHCA would disproportionately affect people with employer-provided insurance and older, poorer Americans.

http://fortune.com/2017/03/21/trumpcare-worse-than-obamacare-repeal/
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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You go ahead then and cling to the new paradigm of Communism and tyranny you have surrendered to as your new normal.

Why do you feel such inflammatory drama helps you @INVAR

I happen to agree with many of your "principles".  I'm just asking you to go about achieving your goals in a smarter way---take 75-80% of what you want today.  Give our citizens a little time to acknowledge the earth is still rotating on its axis and the sun is still rising in the East --- then go for the rest.  You'll ultimately have much more support and respect.

Offline XenaLee

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There is nothing conservative at all about the Government running health care in any form.

http://fortune.com/2017/03/21/trumpcare-worse-than-obamacare-repeal/

Except that.... there is also nothing conservative about labeling and targeting folks that just happened  (they just got "lucky") to reach a certain age ....as being "free riders", qualifying them for premiums five times higher than someone in their 30's, despite how good their health may be.  It's just more government tyranny, IMO.

The resident leftist would disagree, I'm certain.
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Offline txradioguy

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Except that.... there is also nothing conservative about labeling and targeting folks that just happened  (they just got "lucky") to reach a certain age ....as being "free riders", qualifying them for premiums five times higher than someone in their 30's, despite how good their health may be.  It's just more government tyranny, IMO.

The resident leftist would disagree, I'm certain.

I'm with you on that as well.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline musiclady

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Except that.... there is also nothing conservative about labeling and targeting folks that just happened  (they just got "lucky") to reach a certain age ....as being "free riders", qualifying them for premiums five times higher than someone in their 30's, despite how good their health may be.  It's just more government tyranny, IMO.

The resident leftist would disagree, I'm certain.

WHICH resident leftist?   :smokin:
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Offline XenaLee

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WHICH resident leftist?   :smokin:

Ooops.  You're correct.  We have more than one...lol.

Referring to the one that "thinks" that if you worked hard your entire life, saved your money and made yourself a nice, comfy life with all that sweat and hard work....

that you just got "lucky"..... ie 'You didn't build that'.  (That's the biggest clue.)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Well, if we were discussing medical procedures @INVAR, I would agree with you.  But we are talking about political processes ... and refighting battles already lost is counterproductive. Obamacare shifted the paradigm you're still clinging to. We all will be better served if we stop looking behind us for the battlefield that was and fight on the battlefield that is.

Imagine if the patriots of 1775 kept refighting the Battles of Lexington and Concord hoping for a different outcome.  Not only would we have continued to lose the battles, we would have ultimately lost the war.
Why, that'd be as bad as the Yankees coming back to Bull Run.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Why do you feel such inflammatory drama helps you @INVAR

I happen to agree with many of your "principles".  I'm just asking you to go about achieving your goals in a smarter way---take 75-80% of what you want today.  Give our citizens a little time to acknowledge the earth is still rotating on its axis and the sun is still rising in the East --- then go for the rest.  You'll ultimately have much more support and respect.
I'd go for an 80% repeal of Obamacare. Just remove all the nouns, adjectives, and verbs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

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There is nothing conservative at all about the Government running health care in any form.

http://fortune.com/2017/03/21/trumpcare-worse-than-obamacare-repeal/

@Jazzhead

The bill would have REQUIRED insurance companies to charge people 30% more if they went 63 days or more without health insurance in the last 365 days.  Now allow, but REQUIRE.

Now how is someone who is not a customer a "freerider"?

How is it a conservative value to require private companies to enforce government policy which involves paying a "tax"?

@txradioguy
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Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Imagine if the patriots of 1775 kept refighting the Battles of Lexington and Concord hoping for a different outcome.  Not only would we have continued to lose the battles, we would have ultimately lost the war.

You raise a point here that I really think needs to be addressed (probably even make it a chapter in my book....)  There's been this myth propagated that the Founders wouldn't compromise, it was all or nothing, etc.  That's complete hogwash.  The Founders signed the Declaration knowing they might lose the war, but also believing they had a good chance to win.  If it would have gotten to the point where defeat was inevitable, and further fighting would just have cost the lives of soldiers, they'd rightfully have surrendered.  Patrick Henry aside, they weren't aiming for martyrdom.  They were aiming for victory.

And look at how we actually fought that war.  Washington didn't follow some idiotic "no retreat" directive.  For much of the war, his immediate tactical goal was to simply keep an army in the field, not win battles.  One of his best moves as a general was escaping New York in August 1776.  Less than two months after the Declaration was signed, Washington abandoned New York when surrounded by the British.  He gave up a critical city, but did so because he wanted to preserve his army.  Some here would no likely have denigrated him as a moral coward for refusing to fight to the bitter end to save New York.  Some back then actually did.  But had he stayed and fought with a "no retreat" mindset, his entire army would have been bagged, and the Revolution over.

In the south, we pretty much lost every important battle for a good stretch.  Our best general was Nathanael Greene, and it was his strategy that led to the victory at Yorktown.  But he actually lost every pitched battle he fought.  He had a brilliant strategic plan, never stopped nipping at the heels of the British, and eventually compelled them to retreat through strategic maneuver.

The point is that in a war, you cannot insist on always attacking/never retreating.  You have to fight hard, but also fight smart.  Know when to attack, when to push your advantage, and when to take what you can get and not leave yourself open to a counterattack by getting too greedy.  That was part of the genius of Washington at Trenton and Princeton.  He attacked, did his damage, and then retreated before getting cutoff.  The absolutists -- and there were some of those back then -- criticized him for not pushing his advantage harder and launching a general attack.  But he did the right thing in grabbing those victories and not risking too much.

My point is that we are essentially in a war right now with the left, and to win, it is not enough to just be principled and fight hard.  We must also fight smart.  It means fighting tough rear-guard actions when we lose, like we did in 2008.  And it means taking victories whenever we can, even if they are not as complete and overwhelming as we might like.  The "give me everything, or nothing at all" mentality will doom us to certain defeat, just as certainly as it doomed the entire German Sixth Army when Hitler issued his asinine "no retreat" order for Stalingrad.

We cannot confuse disagreements on strategy/tactics, with disagreements on principles.  Most (not all, obviously) of us here are pretty staunch conservatives, and would like to bring the country to a much better place, which means much less government interference and control in our lives.  Where we disagree is how best to get from here, to there.  And it would be a real tragedy if we left that kind of disagreement divide us to the point where we are unable to achieve anything.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:51:21 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Jazzhead

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Except that.... there is also nothing conservative about labeling and targeting folks that just happened  (they just got "lucky") to reach a certain age ....as being "free riders", qualifying them for premiums five times higher than someone in their 30's, despite how good their health may be.  It's just more government tyranny, IMO.

The resident leftist would disagree, I'm certain.

In a free market,  insurers would rationally charge older folks five times the premiums they charge for younger folks.   That's what actuarial analysis would justify.   The ACA prohibited insurers from charging older folks more than three times more.   That's a blatant attempt to alter what the free market would otherwise provide (forcing the young to subsidize the old).   The result, of course, is that premiums for younger folks soared, and many demurred, taking their healthy lives out of the pool.   That in turn caused premiums for older folks to soar.   

It's a vicious cycle caused directly by government meddling.   The AHCA would have fixed that.    Thanks to the FC,  it won't.   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:50:00 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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@Jazzhead

The bill would have REQUIRED insurance companies to charge people 30% more if they went 63 days or more without health insurance in the last 365 days.  Now allow, but REQUIRE.

Now how is someone who is not a customer a "freerider"?

How is it a conservative value to require private companies to enforce government policy which involves paying a "tax"?

@txradioguy

Not require.  Allow.   
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Offline txradioguy

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@Jazzhead

The bill would have REQUIRED insurance companies to charge people 30% more if they went 63 days or more without health insurance in the last 365 days.  Now allow, but REQUIRE.

Now how is someone who is not a customer a "freerider"?

How is it a conservative value to require private companies to enforce government policy which involves paying a "tax"?

@txradioguy

I know the answer!!! Pick me!!! pick me!!!
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline XenaLee

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In a free market,  insurers would rationally charge older folks five times the premiums they charge for younger folks.   That's what actuarial analysis would justify.   The ACA prohibited insurers from charging older folks more than three times more.   That's a blatant attempt to alter what the free market would otherwise provide (forcing the young to subsidize the old).   The result, of course, is that premiums for younger folks soared, and many demurred, taking their healthy lives out of the pool.   That in turn caused premiums for older folks to soar.   

It's a vicious cycle caused directly by government meddling.   The AHCA would have fixed that.    Thanks to the FC,  it won't.

So..... if you're a healthy 60 year old that has never done drugs, smoked, indulged in alcohol or overeating.... let's say maybe even a health nut.... you think it's fair for, under RyanCare, insurers to be able to charge you five times higher premiums than someone in their 30's that may or may NOT be as healthy as you.... and all based solely on how many more years you have managed to be on planet earth?

Here's a novel thought.  How about a free health screening for ALL seeking health insurance to determine if they warrant being charged that much more.  I know, I know... too logical, too fair, too "non-government solution" of an idea.  Silly moi.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:56:17 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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You raise a point here that I really think needs to be addressed (probably even make it a chapter in my book....)  There's been this myth propagated that the Founders wouldn't compromise, it was all or nothing, etc.  That's complete hogwash.  The Founders signed the Declaration knowing they might lose the war, but also believing they had a good chance to win.  If it would have gotten to the point where defeat was inevitable, and further fighting would just have cost the lives of soldiers, they'd rightfully have surrendered.  Patrick Henry aside, they weren't aiming for martyrdom.  They were aiming for victory.

And look at how we actually fought that war.  Washington didn't follow some idiotic "no retreat" directive.  For much of the war, his immediate tactical goal was to simply keep an army in the field, not win battles.  One of his best moves as a general was escaping New York in August 1776.  Less than two months after the Declaration was signed, Washington abandoned New York when surrounded by the British.  He gave up a critical city, but did so because he wanted to preserve his army.  Some here would no likely have denigrated him as a moral coward for refusing to fight to the bitter end to save New York.  Some back then actually did.  But had he stayed and fought with a "no retreat" mindset, his entire army would have been bagged, and the Revolution over.

In the south, we pretty much lost every important battle for a good stretch.  Our best general was Nathanael Greene, and it was his strategy that led to the victory at Yorktown.  But he actually lost every pitched battle he fought.  He had a brilliant strategic plan, never stopped nipping at the heels of the British, and eventually compelled them to retreat through strategic maneuver.

The point is that in a war, you cannot insist on always attacking/never retreating.  You have to fight hard, but also fight smart.  Know when to attack, when to push your advantage, and when to take what you can get and not leave yourself open to a counterattack by getting too greedy.  That was part of the genius of Washington at Trenton and Princeton.  He attacked, did his damage, and then retreated before getting cutoff.  The absolutists -- and there were some of those back then -- criticized him for not pushing his advantage harder and launching a general attack.  But he did the right thing in grabbing those victories and not risking too much.

My point is that we are essentially in a war right now with the left, and to win, it is not enough to just be principled and fight hard.  We must also fight smart.  It means fighting tough rear-guard actions when we lose, like we did in 2008.  And it means taking victories whenever we can, even if they are not as complete and overwhelming as we might like.  The "give me everything, or nothing at all" mentality will doom us to certain defeat, just as certainly as it doomed the entire German Sixth Army when Hitler issued his asinine "no retreat" order for Stalingrad.

We cannot confuse disagreements on strategy/tactics, with disagreements on principles.  Most (not all, obviously) of us here are pretty staunch conservatives, and would like to bring the country to a much better place, which means much less government interference and control in our lives.  Where we disagree is how best to get from here, to there.  And it would be a real tragedy if we left that kind of disagreement divide us to the point where we are unable to achieve anything.
Good points. Especially about confusing tactics and principles.

I've always had a strong Patrick Henry streak myself.  :laugh: It took the likes of George Washington and Ben Franklin to bring the different factions together and keep folks working towards the ultimate goal and get us the Constitution after the war; I don't see a lot of men of that caliber out there. Knee jerk reactions and riding off half-cocked are the norms of the day. Twitter makes it even worse every time someone charges a windmill it makes news.


“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline INVAR

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It's a flawed analogy.  We're not talking about a patient, who has an individual, sovereign right to make all decisions about their own body. 

No it's not. Socialism is a cancer.  Government Statism is a cancer.  You want to leave part of it in the government of the body Politick - then death for liberty is certain, and chains for your posterity are assured.

You're admitted purpose in discussing these issues is not to propose solutions that might help, because you believe we're already lost.  You're only purpose is to be a "witness" to it -- those are your own words. 

That they are.  Principled Conservatives on internet forums have detailed their proposed solution: eradicating the cancer of ObamaCare.  We are ridiculed and said we are unrealistic (because the vast majority of this people obviously WANT Socialism/Communism and the government to parcel out handouts and subsidies) - so the consequences of leaving a metastasizing cancer in the body is inevitable death. 

You want people to become more and more miserable so you can sit back and say "see, I told you so!"  And I'm not even exaggerating.

Sticking firm to principles without compromising with tyranny is somehow my desire to see people become more miserable?  How pathetically backwards.  No talk about the miseries that all this Marxism and Statism is inflicting - no, just a brief acknowledgment on your behalf and then it's full steam ahead to chastise those who will not compromise with that same tyranny simply renamed. 

Brilliant.

I can't figure out why anyone would pay attention to any of your policy recommendations. 

Why would they?   They are not interested in the solutions that could save them. They make that perfectly clear.   So they get to eat the fruit and consequences of their way.

You're deliberately trying to drill holes in the bottom of a leaky boat, while the rest of us are trying to plug them and bail like hell.

That's funny. Because in reality - what you are advocating is that you drill smaller holes to let the waters of ObamaCare out of the boat because running the boat aground at the beach for a refit is not politically possible.

Hope you can swim.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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@Jazzhead

The bill would have REQUIRED insurance companies to charge people 30% more if they went 63 days or more without health insurance in the last 365 days.  Now allow, but REQUIRE.

Now how is someone who is not a customer a "freerider"?

How is it a conservative value to require private companies to enforce government policy which involves paying a "tax"?

@txradioguy

I agree with this.  The bill should permit insurance companies to charge more, but not require it.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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I agree with this.  The bill should permit insurance companies to charge more, but not require it.

In that case, it's dishonest to say "the individual mandate is gone." 

No, it's not gone.  It's still there, only payable to the insurance companies instead of the government.
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Offline Jazzhead

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In that case, it's dishonest to say "the individual mandate is gone." 

No, it's not gone.  It's still there, only payable to the insurance companies instead of the government.

My understanding is that the ACHA would have allowed insurance companies to charge higher rates to free riders. 
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