Author Topic: Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.  (Read 44974 times)

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Offline INVAR

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This thread is rife with crazy (but unfortunately) prolific people.

Yeah.

People advocating and arguing about the principles of Liberty are certainly crazy aren't we?

Unfortunately I guess I am happy to be so.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DB

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This thread is rife with crazy (but unfortunately) prolific people.

Well Emjay, maybe it is just over your head. I think it is a pretty well argued thread without going off the deep end calling each other names - other than perhaps you.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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ObamaCare was intended as a form of slavery.  The ultimate "gotcha by the short hairs" power grab by DC leftists.  Which is why only a FULL REPEAL will reverse this travesty against Americans.

Has to be full repeal for sure!  The Freedom Caucus saved Trump from the outcomes of his unpopular health care proposal.  It would have sunk him once Americans figured out what was in it.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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@EC

Gods, this thread is still running?

Maj Bill, you missed out one thing in your last sentence. You mentioned desirable and achievable - what about right?

How is trying to reduce statism to the maximum extent politically possible not right? 

Honestly, I can't understand the morality of the contrary argument.  Look, if you take what those guys are saying literally -- and I don't really know how else to take them -- then supporting even a complete repeal of ObamCare is immoral.  Part of of ObamaCare actually reduced funding for Medicare (another unconstitutional program).  Therefore, repealing ObamaCare puts more money into Medicare.  How can that kind of ideological impurity be tolerated?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 01:50:33 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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It absolutely does address the point.  If you are going bend over and accept tyranny as 'law' in this case, you have surrendered all of your liberty - because as Joe explained - every aspect of your life can now be infringed and imposed upon by diktat of bureaucrats who will ensure costs for universal health care are arrested as the consumer level based on how we live our lives.

But that has already happened, and long before ObamaCare.  Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security...there is an almost endless list of actions the government has taken over the past 100 years that meet your definition of tyranny.  So I ask you again...what exactly have you donw about it?  You haven't resisted -- you've submitted.  You pay your taxes, you obey most of those laws, at least.  So what happened to your righteous pronouncement:

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For some of us, disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God.  I know that concept is absurd to you, but it is a primary principle of a good chunk of us.

You've obeyed the tyrants.  You do it on a daily basis.  You claim not to compromise your beliefs at all, but your very presence proves otherwise.

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A lot of hot air was spewed by Thomas Paine, Jefferson, Henry, Adams, Franklin and so forth in the years preceding actual armed resistance to the crown's imposition of tyranny.  The war is always first waged in the minds and views of a people as to whether they are going to surrender and subject themselves to being ruled, or to resist.

What does that have to do with anything?  You've said we don't have liberty, and have endorsed "Give me liberty or give me death."  Most of us can recognize middle grounds, and so not be held to such absurdities.  You, not so much.  Or are you saying that the stuff you say here is also just "hot air"?  Because that, I could agree with. 

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I suppose you will assert my 'keyboard warrior' stance accomplishes nothing but braving a storm in a skiff made of paper.

Oh hell no.  I generally see nothing wrong with being a keyboard warrior because it is a legitimate means of trying to influence the opinions of others, and so an attempt to change the course of the country.  It's democracy in action.  However,  it is hypocritical coming from you given your loudly-proclaimed refusal to live under tyranny, accusing others of doing the same, while somehow ignoring the glaring reality that we all live in the same country, under the same laws, and under the same "tyranny".

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I'm stoking brushfires in the minds of people reading this board and others that I participate.  Reminding them of that which they are entrusted to defend with every fiber of their being.  because once it is surrendered and gone, it is gone forever.  It never comes back.

"Stoking brushfires" isn't "refusing to live under tyranny", and accepting only "liberty or death".  It's typing on your computer and meekly accepting your fate.  Heck, you've even said that your goal isn't to actually change anything.  It is just to be a  "witness" so that nobody can say you didn't tell them.  But again, being a "witness" isn't actively resisting anything.  It's just...talk.

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Funny how you would be silly enough in this very thread to tell us we are all required to live under laws and policies that the "representatives" in D.C. exempt themselves from having to live under.

Please explain how that is "silly", or even better, please explain how it is untrue.  You are required to live under those laws, even though you disagree with them, and even if Congress exempts itself from them.  So are we all. That may not be morally right, but it is nevertheless a fact.  You are stuck here, with the rest of us, and you obey and are affected by those laws no matter how much you protest them on a message board.  Your principled stand does not save you from that.  The only thing that can save you from that is actually changing those laws.  But that is something you have already stated repeatedly, on this very board, is not going to happen.  To you, the fight is over, and we're on the inexorable path downward.  So the question is....

Why haven't you actually started armed resistance yet?  Either you obey the tyrants, or you obey God.  You cannot obey both.

Isn't that right? 

Offline INVAR

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So I ask you again...what exactly have you donw about it?  You haven't resisted -- you've submitted

That is absolutely comical coming from a person advocating we must compromise with accepting government-run and regulated health care.

Most of us can recognize middle grounds, and so not be held to such absurdities. 

We've recognized 'middle-ground' because evils were sufferable to the point we are now a post-Constitutional Socialist Moboocracy.  At some point, the chains are going to finally become unbearable but by then the cost to right yourselves and throw off the forms to which you have become accustomed is going to cost more than you will be willing to risk.

However,  it is hypocritical coming from you given your loudly-proclaimed refusal to live under tyranny, accusing others of doing the same, while somehow ignoring the glaring reality that we all live in the same country, under the same laws, and under the same "tyranny".

I'm not the one advocating others to give into surrendering a fundamental principle that is a lynchpin to our complete subjugation.  An Object that was designed to subjugate us under absolute despotism by its architects.   You have accused us of standing in the way and being an obstacle to 'moving the ball down the field' in the direction you want it to go because we will not compromise on that principle.  Accusing me of hypocrisy is amusing coming from you considering you are arguing from a position that we must all bow down to tyranny because we all live in the same country, under the same rulers and under the same tyranny.

I'm at least honest though to call it what it is.  You won't.

Heck, you've even said that your goal isn't to actually change anything.  It is just to be a  "witness" so that nobody can say you didn't tell them.  But again, being a "witness" isn't actively resisting anything.  It's just...talk.

You can take up the Definition of Watchmen with the Lord.  Warnings are being given by myriad folks called to do that, and when the consequences full come for this country - none of us will have an excuse to be angry with God or wonder why it is we were handed over to the fate we have secured for ourselves and our posterity.

You are welcome to continue scoffing and jeering at the very notion.


Please explain how that is "silly", or even better, please explain how it is untrue.  You are required to live under those laws, even though you disagree with them, and even if Congress exempts itself from them. 

I'm not falling into this sedition trap you are attempting to get me to take the bait for.  I'm not budging on the principle that government has absolutely no authority to take over and manage health care in this country.   You have made it clear that you have accepted that authority and demand compromise from that starting point to try and move in the right direction.  That in itself is hilariously absurd. 

But given your statement - that you're perfectly fine with living under laws that Congress exempts itself from - we're done talking.    We have no common ground upon which to stand.

None.

May your chains rest lightly.  Just know I will continue to do what I do, even though it disgusts you.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775