Author Topic: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix  (Read 42133 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2017, 12:55:24 pm »
Twenty five votes out of 435? Must have been just a great bill if it couldn't get a majority without those.

Well, it was a bill that moved Obamacare in a conservative direction, so you couldn't count on a single Democrat vote.  Which meant they were 25 votes out of 237, not 435.  So yes, they did have the ability to kill the bill.

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A real leader owns their failures and doesn't blame everyone else, but it's easy to see why the RINOs and Trump would point the fingers at Conservatives, after all we have less in common than Trump and the Dems.

Trump may be a crappy leader, but he wasn't allowed to cast a single vote on this bill.  That was all on Congress.  As for the RINO's....the reason they're not getting as much blame is because what they did at least makes logical sense from their own perspective.  They'd prefer ObamaCare to a complete repeal with no replacement, so if a partial repeal is off the table, they'll stick with Obamacare and let the bill die.  I don't agree with them as a matter of policy, but their actions make sense given their views.

What some of us are struggling with is the sense that the FC is saying "If we can't have total repeal (or close to it), we won't agree to anything."  If the result of them taking that position is that ObamaCare either stays intact or moves in a more liberal direction, then they seem to have cut off our noses to spite our faces.

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2017, 01:01:51 pm »
I see the "voice of reason" has joined the conversation.  I'll just sit over here for a while...

:2popcorn:
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2017, 01:23:13 pm »
But conservatives then won't have a place at the table, and the reform won't reflect our values.
We "knuckledraggers" and "short sighted idiots" are nowhere as erudite and wonderful as you Liberals, I get that, after all, all you have in the end is name calling and button pushing because your position is indefensible.

There may be more of you, or maybe you are just louder, but there are many more occasions in history where those who didn't know shit from shinola were in the often quite loud majority. You can smugly proclaim the downfall of this Republic, even as you 'make deals' and tell us how you "won".

When you say "Our" values, just who are those "our" you speak of? You and I have had multiple conversations which indicate some very great differences in what values each of us considers 'acceptable'.

Conservative values acknowledge that the Federal Government has no business mucking about in health care, and no Constitutional authorization. We also recognize the growing debacle that is Obamacare and Want. It. Gone. The whole Act. That's why we voted for people to remove it. We don't agree that Socialism is good for America, as the past 60 years have proven. We do agree that the government which governs best governs least.  Apparently (and from numerous of your other comments on this forum) you are no Conservative.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline musiclady

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2017, 01:38:25 pm »
Well, it was a bill that moved Obamacare in a conservative direction, so you couldn't count on a single Democrat vote.  Which meant they were 25 votes out of 237, not 435.  So yes, they did have the ability to kill the bill.

Trump may be a crappy leader, but he wasn't allowed to cast a single vote on this bill.  That was all on Congress.  As for the RINO's....the reason they're not getting as much blame is because what they did at least makes logical sense from their own perspective.  They'd prefer ObamaCare to a complete repeal with no replacement, so if a partial repeal is off the table, they'll stick with Obamacare and let the bill die.  I don't agree with them as a matter of policy, but their actions make sense given their views.

What some of us are struggling with is the sense that the FC is saying "If we can't have total repeal (or close to it), we won't agree to anything."  If the result of them taking that position is that ObamaCare either stays intact or moves in a more liberal direction, then they seem to have cut off our noses to spite our faces.

Why, exactly, do you think Obamacare will become more liberal under a Trump administration with a Republican Congress?

The point you seem to be missing, as I read your posts here which on the surface seem very logical and well reasoned, is that the reason Obamacare is disastrous is that it's the government taking complete control of our very lives.  It's bad in every iteration that one can imagine because the government does everything badly.

If one takes the position that government needs to be removed from controlling our health, running roughshod over physicians' and patients' rights, and regulating things in which it is completely ignorant (which is what the conservative position - and mine - is), then getting rid of the entire mess is the only solution.

Socialized medicine, government controlled health care, is a disaster from which we most likely will never recover.

It needs to be gone.

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Offline corbe

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2017, 01:38:47 pm »
I see the "voice of reason" has joined the conversation.  I'll just sit over here for a while...

:2popcorn:


   He's just warming up with the knuckle dragger thing, I won't be here for the bleep, bleep, bleep
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2017, 01:40:42 pm »
Conservative values acknowledge that the Federal Government has no business mucking about in health care, and no Constitutional authorization. We also recognize the growing debacle that is Obamacare and Want. It. Gone. The whole Act. That's why we voted for people to remove it. We don't agree that Socialism is good for America, as the past 60 years have proven. We do agree that the government which governs best governs least.  Apparently (and from numerous of your other comments on this forum) you are no Conservative.

That you would have to explain tells me all I need to know.
These, right here, are why I am no longer a Republican.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2017, 01:45:12 pm »
Well, it was a bill that moved Obamacare in a conservative direction, so you couldn't count on a single Democrat vote.  Which meant they were 25 votes out of 237, not 435.  So yes, they did have the ability to kill the bill.

Trump may be a crappy leader, but he wasn't allowed to cast a single vote on this bill.  That was all on Congress. 
Neither, for that matter, was either chamber of Congress. More's the pity, the primary challengers could have had a head start.
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As for the RINO's....the reason they're not getting as much blame is because what they did at least makes logical sense from their own perspective.
What the Democrats did to the health care system in America made sense from their perspective, too.
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  They'd prefer ObamaCare to a complete repeal with no replacement, so if a partial repeal is off the table, they'll stick with Obamacare and let the bill die.
Ask them how many of them want to keep going with obamacare. I'd bet the answer is zero. But what is the point of voting for a Bill which only piddles with an impotent fraction of the ACA, in an ongoing effort to fine tune crap. Anyone who has ever worked on vehicles can tell you they often reach a point where there is just too much to replace. We call those 'parts cars'. Obamacare is not even that, what would you keep? What of the whole ACA do you think is a good idea, keeping in mind that it is being micromanaged by a government whose office holders are exempt?
Want to fix it? Remove that part. Make everyone in Congress and their staffers subject to the provisions of the legislation they dumped on the rest of us.  Let them have a slice of the same cake they prescribed for the rest of America.
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I don't agree with them as a matter of policy, but their actions make sense given their views.
If you knew something wasn't going to do much, and that for only a limited amount of time, would you sign off on it when you were sent by your constituents to be rid of that thing once and for all? If someone parks a junk car in your drive way would you be content to have it carted off a few nuts and bolts at a time?

Quote
What some of us are struggling with is the sense that the FC is saying "If we can't have total repeal (or close to it), we won't agree to anything."  If the result of them taking that position is that ObamaCare either stays intact or moves in a more liberal direction, then they seem to have cut off our noses to spite our faces.
And what the rest of us are struggling with is that those who were in full support of repeal when it would never pass the President's desk, now refuse to gut the ACA when that measure would likely be signed. Why the left shift?

What is the sudden refusal to get rid of this bad legislation, to at least beef up this 11th hour bill and make it acceptable to more of the FC, instead of saying 'that's all you're going to get, take it or leave it'? When the GOP is more willing to seek the approval and compromise of the Democrats than conservatives, they have lost any claim to calling themselves "conservative."

If none of this (as I have seen claimed) would pass through the Senate, then why even bother going through the ineffectual motions of offering a half-assed mess and not even voting on it? Kabuki, that's why.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2017, 01:50:45 pm »
“Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.”


Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2017, 01:55:00 pm »
@musiclady

Why, exactly, do you think Obamacare will become more liberal under a Trump administration with a Republican Congress?

If Trump cannot make a deal with the FC, he'll have to move left to get a majority.  That necessarily must include some Democrats, which means a bill more liberal than the one that just failed.

Alternatively, if he doesn't make that kind of deal with Democrats and we pass nothing substantive, then Dems use that failure to turn the House blue in 2018.

Quote
The point you seem to be missing, as I read your posts here which on the surface seem very logical and well reasoned, is that the reason Obamacare is disastrous is that it's the government taking complete control of our very lives.  It's bad in every iteration that one can imagine because the government does everything badly.

I'm not missing the point.  I understand it and agree that it should be completely repealed.  I think the FC is right on the preferred route to take.

But i believe there are not enough votes in Congress to pass that.  Saying what "must" be done is pointless if there aren't the votes to do it.  So the question is whether a partial repeal is better than either 1) no full or partial repeal at all, or 2) a Democrat fix that make the I'll even more leftist than it already is.

Or to cut to the chase...What do you think should be done if there aren't enough votes for a full repeal?

Online roamer_1

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2017, 02:04:55 pm »
Or to cut to the chase...What do you think should be done if there aren't enough votes for a full repeal?

Beat up the liberal 'moderates' for not moving right.
Chastise the 'moderate' liberals for their failure to compromise.
Howl and throw dirt in the air because liberal Republicans prevented adherence to the promises and platform that got the Republicans in place.

But that is not what is happening.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2017, 02:13:53 pm »

Or to cut to the chase...What do you think should be done if there aren't enough votes for a full repeal?

So...the GOP is going to once again use we don't think we'll have enough votes for a full repeal as an excuse to not do anything? Quite frankly I'm tired of Ryan's excuses and lack of backbone and would love to see him REPLACED with someone like Meadows!  Ryan's speech after Trump's inauguration was nothing more than hot air; I knew at the time coming from his mouth it sounded to good as he his notorious for beating a hollow drum. Combine Paul and Cruz's healthcare bill and I think we'd have a winner!
Romans 12:16-21

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2017, 02:20:05 pm »
So...the GOP is going to once again use we don't think we'll have enough votes for a full repeal as an excuse to not do anything? Quite frankly I'm tired of Ryan's excuses and lack of backbone and would love to see him REPLACED with someone like Meadows!  Ryan's speech after Trump's inauguration was nothing more than hot air; I knew at the time coming from his mouth it sounded to good as he his notorious for beating a hollow drum. Combine Paul and Cruz's healthcare bill and I think we'd have a winner!

OK, so let's suppose you replace Ryan with someone like Meadows.  What would strategy would you suggest to Mr. Meadows to actually get that done?

What portions of Cruz's plans should be used to update/replace those aspects of Ryan's, that led to its being pulled?

And remember: Meadows has got to find the votes for this thing to pass.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2017, 02:36:46 pm »
OK, so let's suppose you replace Ryan with someone like Meadows.  What would strategy would you suggest to Mr. Meadows to actually get that done?

What portions of Cruz's plans should be used to update/replace those aspects of Ryan's, that led to its being pulled?

And remember: Meadows has got to find the votes for this thing to pass.

Cruz's bill allowed buying health insurance across state lines.  Strategy?  The very fact that most campaigned on repealing and this bill didn't do so and therefore didn't pass should be a wake up call.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2017, 02:44:59 pm »
Here is the text of my FB conversation this morning with a senior member of the W&M Committee Chairman Kevin Brady who just happens to be my congressman.

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Bigun “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.”
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833
Like · Reply · 53 mins


Tracee Evans Judge Poe is being honest. This is not the time for republican infighting. Remember 34 House Democrats refused to vote for ObamaCare, but their margin was larger and it passed by TWO votes. Only a couple of those remain in office because the liberals targeted them.
Like · Reply · 33 mins


Bigun Tracee Evans Sorry Tracee! The Freedom Caucus are the ONLY ones telling the truth here no matter how much you and your boss try to spin!
Like · Reply · 31 mins


Tracee Evans Sorry, when their members supported and cosponsored major elements of the bill only to change their minds, that's not truth.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · 30 mins


Tracee Evans What are the Koch brothers giving?
Like · Reply · 30 mins



Write a reply...




Bigun Last year the republican "leadership" was perfectly happy to send a full repeal of Obamacare to Obama's desk but refuse to do so now that we have a president who would allegedly sign it! WHY is that? Could it be because the boys and girls over on K Street don't actually want it repealed?
Like · Reply · 28 mins


Tracee Evans Talk to 4 Senate Republicans whose states expanded Medicaid.
Like · Reply · 5 mins


Write a reply...




Bigun What happened to the "Repeal every last word of Obamacare" that virtually ALL republicans campaigned on for the last 7 years Tracee?
Like · Reply · 25 mins


Tracee Evans If you have 8 Senate Democrats ready to say yes, please say sos
Like · Reply · 6 mins


Bigun PLEASE Tracee! WE are in charge now! At least we are supposed to be!
Like · Reply · 5 mins


Bigun And BTW I do think there very well may be 8 senate democrats up for re-election next year in states handily won by Trump who would very much like to keep their jobs! But we ill never find out because we are led by a bunch of sniveling COWARDS!
Like · Reply · 3 mins
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2017, 02:47:30 pm »
Cruz's bill allowed buying health insurance across state lines.  Strategy?  The very fact that most campaigned on repealing and this bill didn't do so and therefore didn't pass should be a wake up call.

That's not a strategy.

Offline corbe

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2017, 02:52:48 pm »
Here is the text of my FB conversation this morning with a senior member of the W&M Committee Chairman Kevin Brady who just happens to be my congressman.


@Bigun

   I'd definitely award you an 'A' for effort, I assumed Brady gets it right more often than not, am I wrong?
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2017, 02:53:05 pm »
@musiclady

If Trump cannot make a deal with the FC, he'll have to move left to get a majority.  That necessarily must include some Democrats, which means a bill more liberal than the one that just failed.

Alternatively, if he doesn't make that kind of deal with Democrats and we pass nothing substantive, then Dems use that failure to turn the House blue in 2018.

I'm not missing the point.  I understand it and agree that it should be completely repealed.  I think the FC is right on the preferred route to take.

But i believe there are not enough votes in Congress to pass that.  Saying what "must" be done is pointless if there aren't the votes to do it. So the question is whether a partial repeal is better than either 1) no full or partial repeal at all, or 2) a Democrat fix that make the I'll even more leftist than it already is.

Or to cut to the chase...What do you think should be done if there aren't enough votes for a full repeal?

This is where I disagree, Bill.   You are concluding that there are not enough votes in Congress to take the "preferred route," but the problem is that good leadership, President, Speaker, et al, would be at least trying to get the bill that the voters have been asking.... nay, begging...... for, since this debacle of Obamacare passed.

Trump, Ryan and Lott should be working their buns off to get the right bill passed.  They should have been patient enough to put together an acceptable bill to the entire party,  and they should have pressured the weak (i.e. mushy moderates/liberals) to vote their way.

Had they done that, they would have been heroes to the part of the nation that actually wants what's best for the nation.

Instead, they are weak, and they are the laughing stock of both left and right.

There is no way to defend this mess, @Maj. Bill Martin
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 02:54:35 pm by musiclady »
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I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2017, 02:59:56 pm »
That's not a strategy.

The point being is you don't need a strategy; the majority of those in Congress at one point in time ran on REPEALING Bammycare...IOW...the votes will be there.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2017, 03:00:03 pm »
@Bigun

   I'd definitely award you an 'A' for effort, I assumed Brady gets it right more often than not, am I wrong?

Except when it comes to standing up against Paul Ryan he does.  In other words he is a Ryan puppet!  Worthless!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2017, 03:02:44 pm »
This is where I disagree, Bill.   You are concluding that there are not enough votes in Congress to take the "preferred route," but the problem is that good leadership, President, Speaker, et al, would be at least trying to get the bill that the voters have been asking.... nay, begging...... for, since this debacle of Obamacare passed.

Trump, Ryan and Lott should be working their buns off to get the right bill passed.  They should have been patient enough to put together an acceptable bill to the entire party,  and they should have pressured the weak (i.e. mushy moderates/liberals) to vote their way.

Had they done that, they would have been heroes to the part of the nation that actually wants what's best for the nation.

Instead, they are weak, and they are the laughing stock of both left and right.

There is no way to defend this mess, @Maj. Bill Martin

The key to this is the idea of spending the time and doing the necessary groundwork to create a bill that would pass -- and that means a) taking the time to do it right, and b) making the deals necessary to get enough votes.

As to the first, I never really understood the rush to get this bill out there, except maybe to create the proper optics -- keeping promises, helping Trump keep his promise, etc.  Apparently it was cobbled together in a small room and simply presented.  OK, so you get a "clean" bill quickly, which was apparently the goal, but....  What's wrong with rolling this thing out in, say, September?

That brings us to b).  The "clean" bill obviously took no account of actual politics, and Ryan and the rest of the House managers apparently overestimated the support they'd receive on the bill. 

On the other hand, I doubt that we'd have seen any less wailing and gnashing of teeth had Ryan gone the route of making all necessary deals for the bill to pass.  Still, had the moderates and FC types been able to offer modifications -- and had those two sides been willing and able to reach agreement (I doubt they could, to be honest), then Ryan could have gotten the needed votes.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #120 on: March 27, 2017, 03:05:43 pm »
This is where I disagree, Bill.   You are concluding that there are not enough votes in Congress to take the "preferred route," but the problem is that good leadership, President, Speaker, et al, would be at least trying to get the bill that the voters have been asking.... nay, begging...... for, since this debacle of Obamacare passed.

Trump, Ryan and Lott should be working their buns off to get the right bill passed.  They should have been patient enough to put together an acceptable bill to the entire party,  and they should have pressured the weak (i.e. mushy moderates/liberals) to vote their way.

Had they done that, they would have been heroes to the part of the nation that actually wants what's best for the nation.

Instead, they are weak, and they are the laughing stock of both left and right.

There is no way to defend this mess, @Maj. Bill Martin

Very well said.

Effective leaders make things happen. They DO NOT simply count votes and decide 'it can't be done'.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 03:06:57 pm by skeeter »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #121 on: March 27, 2017, 03:14:48 pm »
The blame should be fixed on those that deserve it.   I won't condemn conservatism - because many of us recognized what short-sighted idiots the Freedom Caucus are.    But these knuckledraggers have killed the best shot we'll likely have to reform health insurance along free market lines.   The implosion of the ACA over the next several years will indeed create the crisis necessary for reform.   But conservatives then won't have a place at the table, and the reform won't reflect our values.

15 Freedom Caucus members planned to vote "no"; 18 regular republicans  planned to vote no.

It was a crappy bill, not a failing of conservatism.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 03:15:06 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2017, 03:20:36 pm »
15 Freedom Caucus members planned to vote "no"; 18 regular republicans  planned to vote no.

It was a crappy bill, not a failing of conservatism.

Consider the source, who stamps conservatives "short-sighted idiots" and "knuckledraggers."  But what do I know, I'm "a disgrace."   :laugh:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2017, 03:35:34 pm »
15 Freedom Caucus members planned to vote "no"; 18 regular republicans  planned to vote no.

It was a crappy bill, not a failing of conservatism.

I'm betting the numbers would have been considerably higher for both caucus and non caucus reps.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2017, 03:40:58 pm »
I'm betting the numbers would have been considerably higher for both caucus and non caucus reps.

I suspect so.  Who would want to face their constituents after voting for that?