Author Topic: Is California Really Going to Secede?  (Read 9215 times)

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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2017, 03:14:10 pm »
I don't believe the proponents of secession ever truly think out the ramifications of secession.
Okay, it's ten years from now, and it has been established by an act of congress and a change in the constitution that states are sovereign entities and can leave any time they like.
So some states get a majority or whatever number of adults to effect secession, and they leave the union.
They have to come up with their own  laws, regulations, trade agreements, currency, etc.
But what if, down the road, a majority in the separated state decides they don't like being an independent country and want back in? Should the U.S. let them back in?  Some pro-secessionist people, like the late conservative pundit Joseph Sobran, thought that would be an excellent idea. States could leave and come back in whenever they felt like it.
Actually, it's sheer lunacy.  Why should the U.S. adopt a system where states decide at various points in time to leave or re-enter the union? Lunacy.

The blood and treasure that would not have been wasted had America listened to a rational man like Sam Houston. Instead they threw him out of office and treated him like a traitor.

"Whatever is calculated to weaken or impair the strength of [the] Union,—whether originating at the North or the South,—whether arising from the incendiary violence of abolitionists, or from the coalition of nullifiers, will never meet with my unqualified approval." - Sam Houston

Fellow-Citizens, in the name of your rights and liberties, which I believe have been trampled upon, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the nationality of Texas, which has been betrayed by the Convention, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the Constitution of Texas, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of my own conscience and manhood, which this Convention would degrade by dragging me before it, to pander to the malice of my enemies, I refuse to take this oath. I deny the power of this Convention to speak for Texas....I protest....against all the acts and doings of this convention and I declare them null and void. -Sam Houston refusal to sign an oath of loyalty to the confederacy.

Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South. - Sam Houston answer from a hotel window to angry Texans demanding to know why he didn't support the confederacy. Houston's son was later killed while fighting for the confederacy.




Offline verga

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2017, 04:41:08 pm »
Oregon, as well as Washington, would join CA to form the new country.

Why would you wish to keep CA from Oregon anyway?
@IsailedawayfromFR I don't want to, but if they don't vote to go I see no reason for them not to have the same wall.I guess I am hoping all the libtards wiil migrate south and the normals will migrate north
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Offline thackney

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2017, 09:45:49 pm »
way too expensive to be practical.

Only places where there are desalination plants are either where there are local situations that dictate or very, very cheap energy like the ME

There are already 7 operational desalination plants in California.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.249158765529%2C-118.804092109375&z=7

There are 9 more going through evaluation.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.24915876552903%2C-118.804092109375&z=7
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2017, 11:57:57 pm »

Why not individuals, why can't I declare my property as independent from the US?
The people from the "posse comitatus" basically tried to do that. They claimed they did not have to abide by the laws of the state or country. It did not do them much good. Many of them ended up in the clink. Some were killed while resisting local police or FBI agents. The FBI agents in particular were not fond of the PC after two of their agents were murdered by PC leader Gordon Kahl back in the '80s.
But if anyone feels they have the right to declare themselves independent, I'm not going to stand in their  way. If you do so, please keep this forum apprised, if possible, of your progress in that area. :laugh:

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2017, 12:04:04 am »
There are already 7 operational desalination plants in California.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.249158765529%2C-118.804092109375&z=7

There are 9 more going through evaluation.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.24915876552903%2C-118.804092109375&z=7
One main problem (of many) that will afflict California is that if they were allowed to secede, most of the state's (and many semi-sane Dems) would leave. They would not want to be part of an uber-liberal country.
That would leave the new country with an overabundance of liberals and a very large and growing lower class of minorities. It would be like a western hemisphere South Africa.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2017, 12:11:59 am »
The people from the "posse comitatus" basically tried to do that. They claimed they did not have to abide by the laws of the state or country. It did not do them much good. Many of them ended up in the clink. Some were killed while resisting local police or FBI agents. The FBI agents in particular were not fond of the PC after two of their agents were murdered by PC leader Gordon Kahl back in the '80s.
But if anyone feels they have the right to declare themselves independent, I'm not going to stand in their  way. If you do so, please keep this forum apprised, if possible, of your progress in that area. :laugh:
As for Gordon Kahl, who was primarily a tax protestor, the FBI could have arrested him without violence at the barber shop in Medina, ND, a place he was known to frequent.
Instead, they chose to bushwhack him and his boys on the side of the road, and the agents were killed in that shootout. While I don't consider Kahl's ideas mainstream by any metric, the sanitized version of the shootout belies the fact that agents attacked Kahl on the side of the road to make an example of him, only it didn't go well. The whole thing could have been handled better by the Feds, much like Ruby Ridge or Waco, or Oregon, for that matter.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2017, 01:04:22 am »
As for Gordon Kahl, who was primarily a tax protestor, the FBI could have arrested him without violence at the barber shop in Medina, ND, a place he was known to frequent.
Instead, they chose to bushwhack him and his boys on the side of the road, and the agents were killed in that shootout. While I don't consider Kahl's ideas mainstream by any metric, the sanitized version of the shootout belies the fact that agents attacked Kahl on the side of the road to make an example of him, only it didn't go well. The whole thing could have been handled better by the Feds, much like Ruby Ridge or Waco, or Oregon, for that matter.

But nothing says showy and stupid like the 'feds'.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2017, 03:02:06 pm »
As for Gordon Kahl, who was primarily a tax protestor, the FBI could have arrested him without violence at the barber shop in Medina, ND, a place he was known to frequent.
Instead, they chose to bushwhack him and his boys on the side of the road, and the agents were killed in that shootout. While I don't consider Kahl's ideas mainstream by any metric, the sanitized version of the shootout belies the fact that agents attacked Kahl on the side of the road to make an example of him, only it didn't go well. The whole thing could have been handled better by the Feds, much like Ruby Ridge or Waco, or Oregon, for that matter.
He was not just a tax protester, he was an anti-Semitic, anti-government person who  advocated and used violence to try and achieve his ends.
He could have gone quietly but didn't. He simply didn't want to pay any federal taxes whatsoever because like other PC members he claimed the fed gov. didn't have any authority to tax private citizens. 
The feds screw up occasionally, but this was one person who was not going to go quietly or use non-violent actions to effect the changes he wanted.
They had PC people here in Wisconsin, and in some actions it was local police who arrested the idiots. They, the PC,  considered themselves a law unto themselves. They found out they weren't.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2017, 03:19:39 pm »
He was not just a tax protester, he was an anti-Semitic, anti-government person who  advocated and used violence to try and achieve his ends.
He could have gone quietly but didn't. He simply didn't want to pay any federal taxes whatsoever because like other PC members he claimed the fed gov. didn't have any authority to tax private citizens. 
The feds screw up occasionally, but this was one person who was not going to go quietly or use non-violent actions to effect the changes he wanted.
They had PC people here in Wisconsin, and in some actions it was local police who arrested the idiots. They, the PC,  considered themselves a law unto themselves. They found out they weren't.

Most of the people who get sucked into similar movements may not start out as antisemites but they become immersed in it and are infected with it often without recognizing it within themselves.

There was a time when I was "anti Israel" bit would have sworn on a stack of bibles that I wasn't an antisemite but over the years I found that I couldn't find anything I agreed with Israel about and was forced into some soul searching. Today I may find the occasional issue I disagree with Israel about but can extole the virtues of Israel for hours.

I don't love government and try to look at it in the way our founders did. It should be as small and unobtrusive as possible and I can feel that way without hating Jews or arming for a conflict with govt.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2017, 04:32:25 pm »
Most of the people who get sucked into similar movements may not start out as antisemites but they become immersed in it and are infected with it often without recognizing it within themselves.

There was a time when I was "anti Israel" bit would have sworn on a stack of bibles that I wasn't an antisemite but over the years I found that I couldn't find anything I agreed with Israel about and was forced into some soul searching. Today I may find the occasional issue I disagree with Israel about but can extole the virtues of Israel for hours.

I don't love government and try to look at it in the way our founders did. It should be as small and unobtrusive as possible and I can feel that way without hating Jews or arming for a conflict with govt.
I find that a many of these anti-tax or anti-authority groups in general have large amounts of anti-Semites among them. There is still a residue of anti-Semitism in a number of extreme right-wing groups. Back in the sixties they had something called the Liberty Lobby headed by a guy named Willis Carto and of course, the John Birch Society. Carto was an anti-Semite who  blamed Jews and Israel for everything bad.  Among other things the Birchers thought Ike was a communist. One of the reasons W. F. Buckley kicked them out of NR.
You could always find something to agree with these people on some points involving fed. gov overreach, but many or most of the people were extremely anti-Semitic and blamed Jews for everything wrong.
I certainly want no part of them.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 04:36:30 pm by goatprairie »

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2017, 04:44:49 pm »
I'll add when I was very young (twenties) I used to work in close proximity with a guy who was so extreme he got kicked out of the JBS. He didn't think Hitler was nearly as bad as he was depicted by those Jewish types who ran everything. He also had a lot of  literature involving the Liberty Lobby and all sorts of ..uh..."factual" info concerning the nasty Jews which he brought in to work for me to peruse. I read through some of the stuff on break to humor him. He was actually a very nice guy and was a well-known  rabble rouser and persistent letter writer to the local rag.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2017, 04:56:53 pm »
I'll add when I was very young (twenties) I used to work in close proximity with a guy who was so extreme he got kicked out of the JBS. He didn't think Hitler was nearly as bad as he was depicted by those Jewish types who ran everything. He also had a lot of  literature involving the Liberty Lobby and all sorts of ..uh..."factual" info concerning the nasty Jews which he brought in to work for me to peruse. I read through some of the stuff on break to humor him. He was actually a very nice guy and was a well-known  rabble rouser and persistent letter writer to the local rag.


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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2017, 08:53:14 pm »
One thing about these secessionist movement types: do their promoters ever recognize the right of subareas in these states have their own right to secede?


Do "blue" areas of Texas have the right to secede the state? Do the interior red parts of California have the right to secede the state?


Same arguments could be made for both, I would say.
The right of a subarea of a state to secede is a completely different legal argument than the right for a state to secede from the union.  State constitution vs US constitution.

If a subarea of a state in this country ever did secede, I bet it would be NY state leaving NYC by itself.

Those upstate folks really, really hate the NYC cesspool/
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2017, 09:04:23 pm »
There are already 7 operational desalination plants in California.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.249158765529%2C-118.804092109375&z=7

There are 9 more going through evaluation.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=12fw0sl9pmbCN5FCbPeSEK0aIv3Q&ll=35.24915876552903%2C-118.804092109375&z=7
In skimming through this list of operational plants, I note only one, Carlsbad, has any real size to it at 50 millions gallons per day.  The rest appear to be niche plants only and are less than 1 million gal per day each.

As a comparison, Saudi Arabia has a plant that goes at 288 milion gallons per day.

This is really expensive stuff, and I bet the one of the chief reasons Carlsbad had the plant built there was the extremely dry conditions locally and the fact that there an existent power plant there already.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2017, 09:28:23 pm »
The right of a subarea of a state to secede is a completely different legal argument than the right for a state to secede from the union.  State constitution vs US constitution.

If a subarea of a state in this country ever did secede, I bet it would be NY state leaving NYC by itself.

Those upstate folks really, really hate the NYC cesspool/

Yes, but it still would have to go before Congress.  Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1:

"New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2017, 09:41:03 pm »
Really?  Who are they kidding?  Only themselves, apparently.   California would never survive as a separate entity.  They're too dependent upon that government teat.  They're anti-oil drilling.  The only thing they produce is .... well...produce like citrus, and their own idiotic liberal regulations and rules have all but made that industry unprofitable.  It would be really fun to watch them try to survive after secession, though.  I vote YES!  lol
Try biggest agricultural state, 3rd biggest oil producer state for starters.

"A:In 2015, the top 10 agricultural producing States, in terms of cash receipts were (in descending order): California, Iowa, Texas, Nebraska, Minnesota, Illinois, Kansas, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Indiana. These and related statistics can be found in ERS's Farm Income and Wealth Statistics."

California is nearly twice the next state, Iowa.

https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=53580

You really should do a bit of research, before knee jerk stereotypes that are dead wrong.
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2017, 10:46:16 pm »
California is the source of about 20% of Americans' dairy products, and the sole producer of America's almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, grapes, raisins, kiwifruit, olives, pistachios, pomegranates, sweet rice, and walnuts. Because of California's unique Mediterranean climate and geography, this is the only place in North America where many of these staple foods can be grown. The United States will need us to continue importing its water so that our farmers can continuing growing and shipping these foods to supermarkets across the continent where they are in demand. California will need to meet this market demand so American consumers can continue buying these food items at or near their current prices. That gives California significant leverage in ensuring our access to water from the Colorado River.

http://www.yescalifornia.org/us_wont_shut_off_water_from_colorado

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2017, 06:27:21 am »
He was not just a tax protester, he was an anti-Semitic, anti-government person who  advocated and used violence to try and achieve his ends.
He could have gone quietly but didn't. He simply didn't want to pay any federal taxes whatsoever because like other PC members he claimed the fed gov. didn't have any authority to tax private citizens. 
The feds screw up occasionally, but this was one person who was not going to go quietly or use non-violent actions to effect the changes he wanted.
They had PC people here in Wisconsin, and in some actions it was local police who arrested the idiots. They, the PC,  considered themselves a law unto themselves. They found out they weren't.
You shoot at me and my sons on the side of the frigging road, I'll do my best to stop you from shooting any more, too.
It's that simple. They knew where Kahl hung out, they followed him around enough. If they wanted to arrest him, they could have done without bushwhacking him and his kids on the side of the road, and very likely done so without any gunplay at all.
There are a lot pf people who don't pay their taxes, and a lot more who disagree with what is done with them if they do pay them. that isn't cause for summary execution.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2017, 06:36:31 am »
I find that a many of these anti-tax or anti-authority groups in general have large amounts of anti-Semites among them. There is still a residue of anti-Semitism in a number of extreme right-wing groups. Back in the sixties they had something called the Liberty Lobby headed by a guy named Willis Carto and of course, the John Birch Society. Carto was an anti-Semite who  blamed Jews and Israel for everything bad.  Among other things the Birchers thought Ike was a communist. One of the reasons W. F. Buckley kicked them out of NR.
You could always find something to agree with these people on some points involving fed. gov overreach, but many or most of the people were extremely anti-Semitic and blamed Jews for everything wrong.
I certainly want no part of them.
In any room full of angry people you can generally find at least one anti-semite. It is a question of letting them take the podium and spread their personal poison. Angry people are often looking for someone else to blame, and that anger is easy to steer off course.
It's stupid, really, but it doesn't just apply to people who are Jewish--blacks, Mexicans, Protestants, Catholics, illegals, even liberals and Democrats end up on that needle, depending on where you are and what your problems are.
No hate should be tolerated, no blame and fingers pointed, because we at least allegedly have the Right to set our own course--if that doesn't work, own it, fix it, and give it another shot, or try something else.
The idea that people in a splinter of a Nation half way round the world are holding one down, or that some secret cartel has singled one out to destroy is just paranoid raving and an unwillingness to bear responsibility for one's own fate. Anyone who wants to be a sovereign entity has to first take responsibility for what they do. Otherwise, they have failed before they start.
Kahl was not mainstream in his beliefs but that doesn't give the Feds the 'right' to bushwhack him.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2017, 08:44:45 am »
If a subarea of a state in this country ever did secede, I bet it would be NY state leaving NYC by itself.

Those upstate folks really, really hate the NYC cesspool/

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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2017, 01:56:39 pm »
Try biggest agricultural state, 3rd biggest oil producer state for starters.

"A:In 2015, the top 10 agricultural producing States, in terms of cash receipts were (in descending order): California, Iowa, Texas, Nebraska, Minnesota, Illinois, Kansas, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Indiana. These and related statistics can be found in ERS's Farm Income and Wealth Statistics."

California is nearly twice the next state, Iowa.

https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=53580

You really should do a bit of research, before knee jerk stereotypes that are dead wrong.

And if they seceded they'd immediately lose all the Colorado River water they now enjoy.  The agricultural output would plummet.
My political philosophy:

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2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2017, 02:00:12 pm »
California is the source of about 20% of Americans' dairy products, and the sole producer of America's almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, grapes, raisins, kiwifruit, olives, pistachios, pomegranates, sweet rice, and walnuts. Because of California's unique Mediterranean climate and geography, this is the only place in North America where many of these staple foods can be grown. The United States will need us to continue importing its water so that our farmers can continuing growing and shipping these foods to supermarkets across the continent where they are in demand. California will need to meet this market demand so American consumers can continue buying these food items at or near their current prices. That gives California significant leverage in ensuring our access to water from the Colorado River.

http://www.yescalifornia.org/us_wont_shut_off_water_from_colorado

 :silly:

"almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, grapes, raisins, kiwifruit, olives, pistachios, pomegranates, sweet rice, and walnuts." Staple foods?  I guess the term "staple" has a different meaning in CA than in the real world.  And the sole producer?  I'm pretty sure western New York produces grapes just fine.  And I know walnuts grow in many places, having owned producing walnut trees in PA and seen them in MD.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2017, 02:12:03 pm »
And if they seceded they'd immediately lose all the Colorado River water they now enjoy.  The agricultural output would plummet.

Divert the Colorado south and dig a big trench along the border. We wouldn't need a big long border wall if a good portion was a moat filled with crocodiles.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2017, 02:13:11 pm »
"almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, grapes, raisins, kiwifruit, olives, pistachios, pomegranates, sweet rice, and walnuts." Staple foods?  I guess the term "staple" has a different meaning in CA than in the real world.  And the sole producer?  I'm pretty sure western New York produces grapes just fine.  And I know walnuts grow in many places, having owned producing walnut trees in PA and seen them in MD.

Thus my laughter.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Is California Really Going to Secede?
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2017, 02:30:06 pm »
"almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, grapes, raisins, kiwifruit, olives, pistachios, pomegranates, sweet rice, and walnuts." Staple foods?  I guess the term "staple" has a different meaning in CA than in the real world.  And the sole producer?  I'm pretty sure western New York produces grapes just fine.  And I know walnuts grow in many places, having owned producing walnut trees in PA and seen them in MD.

People have bought a fantasy that California is the only place where things grow but that's only from the perspective of their own lifetimes. In the days of our grandparents California wasn't a major food producer for the rest of the nation. Most of the food they ate was grown withing a few hundred miles of where they lived. My great grandmother told me about the whole family sharing an orange or a banana on the rare occasion one was available to buy.

You mentioned NY grapes and Michigan is the same way, you can't turn around without falling over a winery. We're also a big producer of apples, carrots, Cherries obviously, onions, potatoes, cabbage, cucumbers, and on and on.

Having crops growing all over the country just makes good strategic sense. For instance, when the apple crop got wiped out by midwestern drought a few years ago, the pacific northwest apple growers had a bumper crop.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 02:32:07 pm by Cripplecreek »