Author Topic: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!  (Read 105362 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #550 on: July 20, 2017, 06:50:19 pm »
Denny McLain got religion a little too late to save his career. Four straight seasons, throwing 235+
innings. Lived on a fastball that had more hops than a vat of beer. Threw 661 innings in 1968-69.
Forget the suspension he was hit with in 1970, his shoulder was busy resigning its commission while
his body was taking on excess. 20-game loser in Washington in 1971; gone with a dead arm
and shoulder after the following season, and those who were there said he looked twice his age.
He was 28.

The list of names who have done that is long indeed.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline catfish1957

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #551 on: July 20, 2017, 06:53:04 pm »
The list of names who have done that is long indeed.

In the age of pitch counts and 5 man rotations, he'll probably be remembered as the last 30 game winner in MLB history.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #552 on: July 20, 2017, 07:15:08 pm »
In the age of pitch counts and 5 man rotations, he'll probably be remembered as the last 30 game winner in MLB history.
It was probably what happened to people like Sandy Koufax, Denny McLain, and others that caused the sea change leading
to the five man rotation. That and the continuing over-emphasis on pure power pitchers instead of developing pitchers
who throw with their heads equal to their arms. It's almost enough to make you wonder how pitchers like Catfish Hunter
(his fastball wasn't overpowering, but he had terrific breaking stuff and a willingness to out-think a hitter in the strike zone),
Steve Carlton (fast enough but he really made his living with his slider and his brains, and to those who thought his
conditioning regimen was something between freakish and signs of mental blocks, be reminded he pitched nineteen
quality seasons including the twelve that cemented his Hall of Fame case), Bert Blyleven, Greg Maddux, and
Tom Glavine snuck into the big leagues at all.


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Offline Machiavelli

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #554 on: July 24, 2017, 04:27:14 am »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #555 on: July 24, 2017, 05:16:39 pm »
Clayton Kershaw exits early with lower back tightness, expected to go on DL

I saw Kershaw pitch a 7 inning 1-0 gem last week against the White Sox. His curve is wicked.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #556 on: July 24, 2017, 05:19:09 pm »
It was probably what happened to people like Sandy Koufax, Denny McLain, and others that caused the sea change leading
to the five man rotation. That and the continuing over-emphasis on pure power pitchers instead of developing pitchers
who throw with their heads equal to their arms. It's almost enough to make you wonder how pitchers like Catfish Hunter
(his fastball wasn't overpowering, but he had terrific breaking stuff and a willingness to out-think a hitter in the strike zone),
Steve Carlton (fast enough but he really made his living with his slider and his brains, and to those who thought his
conditioning regimen was something between freakish and signs of mental blocks, be reminded he pitched nineteen
quality seasons including the twelve that cemented his Hall of Fame case), Bert Blyleven, Greg Maddux, and
Tom Glavine snuck into the big leagues at all.

Koufax exited before his elbow blew out from arthritis. He hurt in originally sliding into second base in 1964. After that he was no longer so overpowering and doctors told him in 1966 he'd do permanent damage to his arm if he continued pitching.

Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #557 on: July 24, 2017, 05:42:51 pm »
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #558 on: July 24, 2017, 07:47:59 pm »
Koufax exited before his elbow blew out from arthritis. He hurt in originally sliding into second base in 1964. After that he was no longer so overpowering and doctors told him in 1966 he'd do permanent damage to his arm if he continued pitching.
Some suspect the baserunning play merely exposed something building in the elbow well enough before. (Some think
his straight-overhand delivery, especially throwing his curve ball, may have been a root cause.) He was also
told by the Dodgers' team doctor Robert Kerlan to retire before the 1965 season, in fact. It was Koufax's own decision
to call it a career after the 1966 season; he told no one except a San Diego Union reporter to whom he was close
in spring training, Phil Collier, and Collier agreed to keep his mouth shut about it until the season ended. (Collier's
colleagues in the press were staggered that he kept the secret that long.)

As for "no longer so overpowering?"

* He went out in 1965 and won 26 games, struck out 382 batters (a major league record until Nolan Ryan broke it---by one),
won the pennant clincher on two days' rest, then won two World Series games including Game Seven on two days' rest. (This
was the Series in which he refused to start Game One because it fell on Yom Kippur.) Not to mention a fourth no-hitter,
which proved practise makes perfect: his perfect game, his fourth no-no in four seasons.

* He also pitched better than his 2.04 ERA---his fielding-independent pitching rate was 1.93, with an 0.86 WHIP.

* He led the majors in strikeouts per nine (10.9) and with a 5.38 strikeout to walk ratio.

* He won his second of three Cy Young Awards won in a time when the award went to one pitcher across the board
instead of one in each league.

* In 1966, he won 27 games, struck out 317 hitters, had a 1.76 ERA, and his 2.07 fielding-independent pitching led
the majors for the sixth straight season. He was forced to win the pennant clincher on the final day of the season,
on two days' rest yet again, when Don Drysdale got clobbered in the first half of a doubleheader against the Phillies
and forced manager Alston to change his intended plan and---instead of holding Koufax until Game One of the World
Series---pitch Koufax in the nightcap to clinch.

* He had only one 1966 World Series start and was pitching up to par until three errors in the fifth inning undid him
and the Dodgers; the Orioles went on to sweep before Koufax could get another crack at them. (He was tapped to
start Game Five if there was one.) He retired with a lifetime 0.76 World Series ERA.

* He won his third one-across-the-board Cy Young Award.

It seems to me that Sandy Koufax---with an arthritic elbow for which he was medicated heavily enough to be a little
high on the mound and possibly prone to line drives back through the box (he cited the possibility of being injured
by one under that insane medical regimen at his retirement announcement)---was overpowering enough and then
some in his final two seasons. It's not that you'd recommend it to anyone else, but for two seasons with a condition
that could have crippled him for life and under meds some of which could have killed him (yes, you can look it up),
Koufax went from off the charts to the tenth dimension. And retired not at the top of the heap but beyond it.


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Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #559 on: July 24, 2017, 07:53:38 pm »
Boo.  I was looking forward to watching him pitch yesterday.
 8888crybaby

Astros have survived a lengthy outage of Keuchel an McCullers.  The Dodgers won't have any problems with NLW.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #560 on: July 24, 2017, 08:20:03 pm »
Astros have survived a lengthy outage of Keuchel an McCullers.  The Dodgers won't have any problems with NLW.

Colin McCue looked pretty good on his 1st start of the year, for 4 and 2/3, then the wheels came off.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #561 on: July 24, 2017, 08:31:26 pm »
Astros have survived a lengthy outage of Keuchel an McCullers.  The Dodgers won't have any problems with NLW.
They had to survive last year without Kershaw for a spell over his back, too.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #562 on: July 24, 2017, 08:50:46 pm »
Astros have survived a lengthy outage of Keuchel an McCullers.  The Dodgers won't have any problems with NLW.

No, not the way the Dbacks and Colorado have been playing.   **nononono*
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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #563 on: July 24, 2017, 09:20:30 pm »
No, not the way the Dbacks and Colorado have been playing.   **nononono*

We haven't played the Rockies yet, but we swept the Dbacks a couple of weekends ago at our house and I'm hoping we can pull off something similar at their house starting tonight. 
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Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #564 on: July 24, 2017, 09:21:14 pm »
Colin McCue looked pretty good on his 1st start of the year, for 4 and 2/3, then the wheels came off.

I have a question about one of the Astros current bull pen hands.  Is there something in Chris Devenski's contract that says he has to throw a gopher ball every single time he enters a game?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #565 on: July 24, 2017, 09:29:30 pm »
We haven't played the Rockies yet, but we swept the Dbacks a couple of weekends ago at our house and I'm hoping we can pull off something similar at their house starting tonight. 
 :0001:

Grienke's pitching tonight, but the way the rest of team's (not) hitting, anything's possible.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #566 on: July 24, 2017, 10:08:59 pm »
I have a question about one of the Astros current bull pen hands.  Is there something in Chris Devenski's contract that says he has to throw a gopher ball every single time he enters a game?

Devinski has had a helluva year.  Don't know what's up with this mid season slump.
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Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #567 on: July 24, 2017, 10:21:18 pm »
Devinski has had a helluva year.  Don't know what's up with this mid season slump.

Yeah.  His overall numbers are still good but he has thrown 1st pitch gophers the last few times he's appeared.  Getting just a tad too predictable is my guess.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #568 on: July 25, 2017, 05:51:59 pm »
I have a question about one of the Astros current bull pen hands.  Is there something in Chris Devenski's contract that says he has to throw a gopher ball every single time he enters a game?

My best guess is that he may be overworked right now.
He was doing great prior to the all-star break.

Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #569 on: July 25, 2017, 06:11:24 pm »
My best guess is that he may be overworked right now.
He was doing great prior to the all-star break.

Can't buy that! He's only pitched 5.2 innings since the break and his ERA is way up mostly due to giving up 3 HR in those 5.2 innings of work.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=hou#playerType=ALL&elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&game_type='R'&season=2017&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'&sectionType=sp&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1501006109568&timeframe=posas&split=posas&last_x_days=
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 06:13:13 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #570 on: July 25, 2017, 06:19:11 pm »
Can't buy that! He's only pitched 5.2 innings since the break and his ERA is way up mostly due to giving up 3 HR in those 5.2 innings of work.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=hou#playerType=ALL&elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&game_type='R'&season=2017&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'&sectionType=sp&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1501006109568&timeframe=posas&split=posas&last_x_days=
That averages out to about an inning a game since the break.
That is quite a bit, but not extravagant.
Still, we don't even ask starters to go 9 innings in 9 games, and they rest for 4 in between.
I don't know.
He is off, that's true enough.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #571 on: July 25, 2017, 06:22:26 pm »
Can't buy that! He's only pitched 5.2 innings since the break and his ERA is way up mostly due to giving up 3 HR in those 5.2 innings of work.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=hou#playerType=ALL&elem=%5Bobject+Object%5D&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&game_type='R'&season=2017&season_type=ANY&league_code='MLB'&sectionType=sp&statType=pitching&page=1&ts=1501006109568&timeframe=posas&split=posas&last_x_days=

Wow, I must have misread that.
I thought you had put down that he worked 9 innings since the break.
Now it says 5.2.
Did you edit, or am I having a reading issue?

Let hope his gets back on track, either way...

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #572 on: July 25, 2017, 06:51:39 pm »
Can't buy that! He's only pitched 5.2 innings since the break and his ERA is way up mostly due to giving up 3 HR in those 5.2 innings of work.
@Bigun
How have they handled him in terms of warming him up before bringing him in? Have they let him throw
for long periods before bringing him in; or, have they warmed him up, sat him down, warmed him up again,
then brought him in? Depending on how much they let him warm up and how they interrupt him before
warming him up again, he could well be gassed by the time he gets into a game now. People forget,
and I've argued it before---when a relief pitcher is throwing in the pen, he's throwing pitches, not
just soft tossing. Depending on how the warmups are treated, he could have thrown the equivalent
of three innings' worth of pitches before he even got into the game.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 06:53:36 pm by EasyAce »


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Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #573 on: July 25, 2017, 08:10:06 pm »
@Bigun
How have they handled him in terms of warming him up before bringing him in? Have they let him throw
for long periods before bringing him in; or, have they warmed him up, sat him down, warmed him up again,
then brought him in? Depending on how much they let him warm up and how they interrupt him before
warming him up again, he could well be gassed by the time he gets into a game now. People forget,
and I've argued it before---when a relief pitcher is throwing in the pen, he's throwing pitches, not
just soft tossing. Depending on how the warmups are treated, he could have thrown the equivalent
of three innings' worth of pitches before he even got into the game.

I'm not discounting any possibility but having watched all those games myself, I'm sticking with my original suspicion. He's getting just a tad too predictable as to what he will do WHEN he comes in and probably just as much the catcher's fault as his own.  Every one of those homers he has given up have been off of the first pitch he threw when he came in. He has been otherwise pretty much unhittable having given up only one hit beyond the three gophers.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #574 on: July 25, 2017, 08:11:49 pm »
Wow, I must have misread that.
I thought you had put down that he worked 9 innings since the break.
Now it says 5.2.
Did you edit, or am I having a reading issue?

Let hope his gets back on track, either way...

Your Eyes are fine LOL!  I got on the wrong line and later saw the error and edited my post.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien