Author Topic: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!  (Read 105994 times)

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #525 on: July 09, 2017, 12:52:24 pm »
@EasyAce  et al:

Can somebody provide a link or simply explain the rule for "close plays" at 1st base, when the batter overruns the base and called SAFE, and as he comes to a stop.

Doesn't he ALWAYS have to turn AWAY from the playing field and instead face toward foul territory....or else be tagged "OUT" before he returns to 1st base?

Thank you in advance!   :patriot:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

"Hello Darkness, my old Friend...stood up too fast once again! Paul Simon 2024.

Offline Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #526 on: July 09, 2017, 01:26:08 pm »
@EasyAce  et al:

Can somebody provide a link or simply explain the rule for "close plays" at 1st base, when the batter overruns the base and called SAFE, and as he comes to a stop.

Doesn't he ALWAYS have to turn AWAY from the playing field and instead face toward foul territory....or else be tagged "OUT" before he returns to 1st base?

Thank you in advance!   :patriot:

You must turn into foul territory when you overrun first, If you do anything else you are subject to being tagged out before you get back to the bag.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #527 on: July 09, 2017, 01:59:58 pm »
You must turn into foul territory when you overrun first, If you do anything else you are subject to being tagged out before you get back to the bag.

Last two weeks, highlights on MLB.com showed THREE instances where the runner came to a complete stop and did a "FACE LEFT"...without making a discernable move toward 2nd base, and the man simply walked back to 1st base 'unmolested'  ^-^

What precipitated my post was that two of my examples...the FACE LEFT was conducted while he was standing in the field of play....not foul territory.

Thus, the 'confusion'.   @Bigun    :patriot:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

"Hello Darkness, my old Friend...stood up too fast once again! Paul Simon 2024.

Online catfish1957

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #528 on: July 09, 2017, 02:08:31 pm »

"Last two weeks, highlights on MLB.com showed THREE instances where the runner came to a complete stop and did a "FACE LEFT"...without making a discernable move toward 2nd base, and the man simply walked back to 1st base 'unmolested"

Noticed an example lately too.  Am afraid this is getting like "in the vicinity" calls at second.   


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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #529 on: July 09, 2017, 03:03:11 pm »
Sometimes baseball is more than just baseball.  :laugh:

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #530 on: July 09, 2017, 04:42:38 pm »

Noticed an example lately too.  Am afraid this is getting like "in the vicinity" calls at second. 


One of them was, IMO, flagrant.   I think it was a MET during the NATS series, and the METS runner thought the catch at 1st was botched for a second....and he actually pivoted toward 2nd base and suddenly jumped up in the air and stopped.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 04:43:00 pm by DCPatriot »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

"Hello Darkness, my old Friend...stood up too fast once again! Paul Simon 2024.

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #531 on: July 09, 2017, 04:49:26 pm »
One of them was, IMO, flagrant.   I think it was a MET during the NATS series, and the METS runner thought the catch at 1st was botched for a second....and he actually pivoted toward 2nd base and suddenly jumped up in the air and stopped.

Did he ever come down?

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #532 on: July 09, 2017, 04:52:00 pm »
Did he ever come down?

 :laugh: 

I still say that if Zimmerman or whoever was covering 1st on the play tagged him while he was walking back to 1st, the ump would have called him "out".   it was that bad.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

"Hello Darkness, my old Friend...stood up too fast once again! Paul Simon 2024.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #533 on: July 09, 2017, 07:28:24 pm »
Last two weeks, highlights on MLB.com showed THREE instances where the runner came to a complete stop and did a "FACE LEFT"...without making a discernable move toward 2nd base, and the man simply walked back to 1st base 'unmolested'  ^-^

What precipitated my post was that two of my examples...the FACE LEFT was conducted while he was standing in the field of play....not foul territory.

Thus, the 'confusion'.   @Bigun    :patriot:
I often suspect it's something akin to the "neighbourhood play" at second base, where a fielder doesn't actually touch
the pad when taking the throw or turning to complete a double play, and the umps call the runner out regardless of
whether the fielder actually touched the base after catching/before throwing on.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #534 on: July 09, 2017, 08:11:34 pm »
I often suspect it's something akin to the "neighbourhood play" at second base, where a fielder doesn't actually touch
the pad when taking the throw or turning to complete a double play, and the umps call the runner out regardless of
whether the fielder actually touched the base after catching/before throwing on.

If you watch a rerun of EVERY sprint to 1st base, virtually 99.9% of runners will do an about-face RIGHT when they come to a stop.

It's instilled through Little League, American Legion and traveling league teams.

You're essentially given a courtesy to overrun 1st base.   Don't be an a##hole and face 2nd base. 


...because the FIRST step is tantamount to drawing down, and I'll tag you out!    :laugh:   
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 08:13:52 pm by DCPatriot »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

"Hello Darkness, my old Friend...stood up too fast once again! Paul Simon 2024.

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #535 on: July 09, 2017, 08:16:42 pm »
I often suspect it's something akin to the "neighbourhood play" at second base, where a fielder doesn't actually touch
the pad when taking the throw or turning to complete a double play, and the umps call the runner out regardless of
whether the fielder actually touched the base after catching/before throwing on.

The only positive thing I can find about the Challenge Rules.  That crap's being stopped.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #536 on: July 12, 2017, 12:31:03 am »
First inning, All-Star Game---Max Scherzer struck out Aaron Judge with one on and fighting back
to 2-2 from 0-2. Well, somebody's been getting that kid out, he's only hitting .329 . . . ;)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #537 on: July 12, 2017, 12:36:01 am »
First inning, All-Star Game---Max Scherzer struck out Aaron Judge with one on and fighting back
to 2-2 from 0-2. Well, somebody's been getting that kid out, he's only hitting .329 . . . ;)

Struck out Springer on 4 pitches.  That is a VERY rare thing.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #538 on: July 13, 2017, 03:10:44 pm »
As if we needed one, here's yet another reason why America seems just a little less like
America without Vin Scully calling a ball game somewhere . . . as he accepts the Icon
Award at the 25th ESPYs . . . (Among his listeners at the ceremony: Hall of Famer Pedro
Martinez . . . )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboc-Akh0w4
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 03:12:53 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #539 on: July 13, 2017, 03:21:17 pm »
As if we needed one, here's yet another reason why America seems just a little less like
America without Vin Scully calling a ball game somewhere . . . as he accepts the Icon
Award at the 25th ESPYs . . . (Among his listeners at the ceremony: Hall of Famer Pedro
Martinez . . . )

It's a well-deserved retirement, but it is sad to see him go.
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #540 on: July 13, 2017, 03:52:38 pm »
Well, now that we wasted another three-day All-Star break, it's time to PLAY BALL!
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #541 on: July 13, 2017, 04:10:36 pm »
Well, now that we wasted another three-day All-Star break, it's time to PLAY BALL!
The break is barely over and the Cubs just pulled off a blockbuster deal---they got pitcher Jose Quintana
from the White Sox for a package of four prospects including outfielder Eloy Jimenez.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Online catfish1957

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #542 on: July 13, 2017, 10:28:05 pm »
The break is barely over and the Cubs just pulled off a blockbuster deal---they got pitcher Jose Quintana
from the White Sox for a package of four prospects including outfielder Eloy Jimenez.

Sending your #1 and #2 prospect out for a 4.5 era P, when you are 5 games out?

Price tag seemed a tad steep and risky.

I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #543 on: July 13, 2017, 10:51:47 pm »
Sending your #1 and #2 prospect out for a 4.5 era P, when you are 5 games out?

Price tag seemed a tad steep and risky.
Quintana looked like a) a change-of-scenery candidate coming b) from a club in complete rebuild
mode. Plus, he's 2-1 with a 2.70 ERA in seven starts since the beginning of June. Whatever his
early season issues it looks like he's resolved them for the most part.

The Cubs are staying in it to win it---and Quintana has three more seasons of club control
in the bargain, while the Cubs didn't have to give up any major league talent to get him. Sometimes
you take risks, and sometimes you have to see it as the other guys taking the risk when you consider
that top prospects don't always pan out no matter how glittering they look in the minors.

Keep in mind, too, that the Cubs' regular outfielders are still young themselves and it's possible that
Jimenez would have been blocked by them longer than he should be blocked from major league
play. Dylan Cease, the minor league pitcher who goes to the White Sox in the deal, has a good
looking performance jacket for the most part so far, given that he hasn't pitched higher than
Class A in his career yet, but his WHIP is up from last year, he has only a 2/1 K/BB ratio, and
it looks like he needs more upper-level experience before he'll be major league ready in about
two years.

The Cubs are hardly the first team to roll the dice and decide being five games out was no reason
to wave the white flag just yet. In 1956, the Brooklyn Dodgers were five games out in late May when
they decided to bring in another pitcher, in this case a veteran on whom the Cleveland Indians soured
after acquiring him from the Giants. They gave him about three weeks to get himself back in pitching
shape . . . and he ended up making the last Brooklyn pennant possible. You might have heard of him
---Sal Maglie, who went 13-5 with a 2.69 ERA for the Dodgers but ended up the hard-luck loser while
Don Larsen pitched his perfect game in that World Series.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:53:33 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #544 on: July 20, 2017, 02:23:21 pm »
Slow down: The Yankees are leading a change in baseball by abandoning a principle of pitching

Tom Verducci
Sports Illustrated
July 19, 2017

Quote
By having its pitchers throw fewer fastballs and rely more on breaking pitches, New York is trying something that might seem radical but could become the future of the sport.

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #545 on: July 20, 2017, 04:25:40 pm »
Slow down: The Yankees are leading a change in baseball by abandoning a principle of pitching

Tom Verducci
Sports Illustrated
July 19, 2017

More

@EasyAce
@Machiavelli
I've been saying for years that it was past time to quit judging pitchers by the radar gun alone and start
judging them by their abilities to think while they're on the mound. And there have been pitchers in the
past who were known for off-the-chart fastballs but had other things going for them that were often
superior to those fastballs. Without the most voluptuous curve ball of his time, Sandy Koufax doesn't
pitch his way into being a peak value Hall of Famer, and he was no slouch when it came to pitching
with his brain. Warren Spahn was a thinking pitcher who developed a screwball when he suspected his
fastball and his standard curve were beginning to betray him, and probably bought himself an extra
decade with it. Juan Marichal used about fourteen different windups and an array of breaking pitches
to keep hitters off balance. Whitey Ford was a near-classic junkballer whose brains got him into
Cooperstown. Bert Blyleven lived long on a curve ball described most politely as monstrous. Jim
Bunning was a classic attack tank on the mound but his real money pitch was a slider.

The flip side to leaning so heavily on breaking pitches: they take more of a physical toll on pitchers
than people realise because of the way they're thrown. (Koufax's elbow arthritis couldn't have been
helped by that straight overhand curve ball he threw, the same curve that helped wreck Dodger
predecessor Carl Erskine's shoulder when his early manager Burt Shotton told him, foolishly, that
the way to get over an arm or shoulder injury was to pitch through it.) And a lot of pitchers who
lived on breaking balls ended up with shortened careers because a) they didn't know (and their
handlers weren't smart enough to know) how to strengthen their arms and shoulders to throw
those pitchers; or, b) they didn't know how to use their fastballs to set those murderous breaking
balls up. Classic examples:

* Steve Stone: Came along slowly but surely in the 1970s, then decided to go for broke and use
that murderous curve ball he had as much as possible despite already having a history of shoulder
trouble. Threw over 55 percent curve balls in 1980. Won himself a Cy Young Award and almost
won the Orioles a pennant. Gone a year and a half later; his arm basically told him where to
shove it and how far.

* Mike Boddicker: Another Oriole lost. Slop tosser whose pitches were bigger than his body. Brief
revival with the Red Sox, then brief journeyman and gone.

* Randy Jones: Another slop tosser. Went from 20+ game loser to back-to-back 20-game winner
and Cy Young Award winner. Injured a nerve in his arm as he ended that Cy Young season.
Never even close to the same again. Gone before he had ten seasons on his resume. Has the
dubious distinction of being the only Cy Young Award winner ever to end up retiring with a losing
record.

* Sammy Ellis: Had a to-die-for fastball and effective off-speed stuff. Came into his own
down the 1964 stretch when the Reds, observing the Phillies' fold, thought they might yet
win one more for cancer-stricken manager Fred Hutchinson. 1965, age 24: Wins 22 games
(he and Jim Maloney will be the Reds' last 20-game winners until . . . Johnny Cueto), makes
the National League All-Star team, and pitches more than twice the innings he threw in
1964. 1966: Arm and shoulder dying prematurely, his ERA triples, he loses 19 games, he
throws out what's left of his fastball and his curve, develops an array of junk that can't
help. Finished by 1970, though he later became a respected coach. (And, the man who
converted Dave Righetti into a shutdown relief pitcher.) Those who were there swear the
beginning of Ellis's end might have been back-to-back starts in 1965 in which he pitched
back-to-back complete games of 11 and 14 innings with three days' rest between them.
thrown in all 1964

On the other hand, there was Robin Roberts. Lived on a fastball and (after Roy Campanella
showed him that he was throwing one he didn't know he had*, thinking it was another
fastball that happened to break a little) a slider. The workhorse of the Phillies staff in the
first half of the 1950s as their pitching collapsed around him and they found no viable
successors, Roberts ended up with a dead arm after owning the league for six years. He
reinvented himself as a junkballer and added about ten years to his career, but all those
years throwing all those pitches (for six straight seasons Roberts threw 300+ innings)
somehow strengthened his arm and shoulder to the point where throwing breaking balls
and junk balls wouldn't injure him.

(* Campanella told Roger Kahn the story for The Boys of Summer: at an All-Star
game for which Roberts got the start and Campanella would start behind the plate,
the two hooked up before the game to discuss pitching to the AL hitters and Campanella
wanted to go over signs: "I'll give you a sign for a slider." Roberts replied, "I don't have
a slider, Roy." "Wait a minute," Campanella retorted, "don't get cute with me. I hit
against you, buddy, and you throw it to me, and if you're going to throw it I'd
better expect it." "Roy, that's my fastball!" Roberts protested. "Robin, they're all
fast," Campanella came back, "but you throw one that comes up straight and another
that goes this way and that." Campanella had spotted that Roberts tended to use
a wrist break he wasn't aware of when he threw some of what he only thought were
fastballs.)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #546 on: July 20, 2017, 04:30:15 pm »
@Machiavelli
I've been saying for years that it was past time to quit judging pitchers by the radar gun alone and start
judging them by their abilities to think while they're on the mound.

Maybe one of the greatest pitchers in my lifetime without overpowering stuff was Great Maddux. 

There was a reason they called him the professor.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #547 on: July 20, 2017, 04:50:09 pm »
Maybe one of the greatest pitchers in my lifetime without overpowering stuff was Great Maddux. 

There was a reason they called him the professor.
Exactly. Maddux and his longtime rotation mate Tom Glavine are classic examples of where you
can go pitching with your brains first, using as many mental weapons as physical ones, out-
thinking hitters or letting hitters out-think themselves.

A predecessor of theirs on the Braves won a World Series MVP with just that approach: Lew
Burdette. Burdette lived on control, not power; he also lived on the psych-out---he was so
naturally fidgety on the mound that a lot of hitters got the idea that he was throwing
spitters. Burdette's real money pitch was a slider that dipped enough to be mistaken for
a sinkerball, but the pitch had enough movement on it that hitters thought he was loading
up. Burdette wasn't a power pitcher; he lived on his breaking balls.

Burdette apparently learned a certain trick from Burleigh Grimes, when Grimes was a coach
in the Yankee system and Burdette was a Yankee prospect: Grimes wouldn't teach him
the spitter, but he noticed the movement on Burdette's slider and Burdette's fidgety
mound habits and told the kid he could put the two together and make the hitters think
he was throwing a loaded pitch. Burdette rode that advice to eventual success.

Burdette also tried to stop one of the most notorious trades in baseball history: by early
1964, he'd ended up with the Cubs after the Cardinals granted his wish for a trade. He wasn't
there three weeks when he began hearing that the Cubs had eyes for another Cardinals
pitcher, Ernie Broglio, and were willing to deal talented but so-far-inconsistent outfielder
Lou Brock. Burdette tried to impress the Cubs' brass that Broglio was no longer the pitcher
the Cubs thought he was: he had developed an elbow issue and was taking cortisone shots
for it and, having seen Brock for himself up close, knew the Cubs would make a big mistake
if they gave up on Brock. The Cubs saw the league-leading 21-game winner of 1961 and the
18-game winner of 1963 for the Cardinals and nothing else, and the deal was made. Broglio
would be gone after winning exactly eight more games in the following two seasons (like
too many pitchers of his time, Broglio was loath to talk about just how badly his elbow
was bothering him, for fear of losing his job, and it shortened his career anyway);
you know where Brock ended up, only beginning with his helping to mean the pennant
for the Cardinals in 1964.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 04:52:27 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Bigun

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #548 on: July 20, 2017, 04:54:00 pm »
Slow down: The Yankees are leading a change in baseball by abandoning a principle of pitching

Tom Verducci
Sports Illustrated
July 19, 2017

More

@EasyAce

Pitching is an art rather than an exact science. Having a great fastball helps to be sure but that alone will not get you very far.  Keeping hitters guessing 100%  of the time is far more important than how fast you can bring it.

"The name of the game is control, control, control!"   

Denny McClain, The Art of Pitching

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Pitching-Denny-McLain/dp/0914303104
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 05:09:14 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EasyAce

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Re: BASEBALL 2017---Bring it On!!!
« Reply #549 on: July 20, 2017, 05:27:54 pm »
Pitching is an art rather than an exact science. Having a great fastball helps to be sure but that alone will not get you very far.  Keeping hitters guessing 100%  of the time is far more important than how fast you can bring it.

"The name of the game is control, control, control!"   

Denny McClain, The Art of Pitching

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Pitching-Denny-McLain/dp/0914303104
Denny McLain got religion a little too late to save his career. Four straight seasons, throwing 235+
innings. Lived on a fastball that had more hops than a vat of beer. Threw 661 innings in 1968-69.
Forget the suspension he was hit with in 1970, his shoulder was busy resigning its commission while
his body was taking on excess. 20-game loser in Washington in 1971; gone with a dead arm
and shoulder after the following season, and those who were there said he looked twice his age.
He was 28.


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