Author Topic: LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome  (Read 19203 times)

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Online corbe

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LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome

By: Ben Shapiro,

January 26, 2017



On Thursday, Ace of Spades ran a piece titled, “How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom.” The central contention was similar to one made by The Daily Wire’s John Nolte: the time for morality in politics has come and gone. Why? Because the right will no longer play by the rules by which the left refuses to abide. Here’s the bottom line:


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I literally don't care what Donald Trump does because nothing he can do is worse than what they've already done….There aren't any rules anymore because the left only applies them one way. And in doing so, they've left what once was a civil compact between the two parties in smoldering ruins. I have no personal investment in Donald Trump. He is a tool to punish the left and roll back their ill-gotten gains, no more and no less. If he succeeds even partially in those two things, then I'll consider his election a win…. Further, I no longer have any investment in any particular political values, save one: The rules created by the left will be applied to the left as equally and punitively as they have applied them to the right….I don’t care if Trump is lying.

My friend Steve Deace puts forward a similar thought when he tweets thusly today:


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  Steve Deace
✔  ‎@SteveDeaceShow 

I think Jones is a kook, but if Trump wants to help us save the babies I don't care if he makes Jones first chair of the WH press corps.

10:42 AM - 26 Jan 2017
 
 7 7 Retweets
 
 18 18 likes

 
In other words, if we get what we want, screw “the rules."

There are a few problems with this.

1. The Left Did Not Set Up “The Rules.” Just to be clear, the rules we’re talking about are not rules like “be civil to your opposition” and “never attack harshly.” Those were stupid rules. We’re now talking about basic moral rules like “don’t lie.” Those rules were not set up by the left. They were rules set up by the Bible, or by basic Kantian imperatives, or by simple decency. Other people have value. You demean their value as human beings when you lie to them.

2. The Left’s Lies Don’t Make Your Lies Better. Just because the left refuses to abide by the “don’t lie” rule doesn’t make your lying morally decent. I’m old enough to remember when we thought Barack Obama was a bad president not merely because he passed Obamacare, but because he lied to do it. I remember when we fumed because Obama and Hillary Clinton lied openly about what drove the attacks in Benghazi, Libya. One of the reasons people on the right dislike the left is because the left lies, not just because they’re of the left. The right hates the mainstream media because they lie, not just because they sympathize with the Democratic Party. Lying makes you a member of the contingent you hate.

3. If Lies In Politics Are Fine, Why Bother Having A Republic? The whole point of republican government is the notion that politicians are answerable to the people – and more importantly, that citizens are capable of holding politicians accountable, of judging right and wrong. If they aren’t – if it’s now morally justifiable to lie to the public in order to get the things you want – then why bother with the charade of republicanism? Why not just have a coup, install the person who will do the stuff you want, and govern that way?

4. Lies Are Only Justified When You Have No Other Choice.
Those who promulgate the “lies are okay because we have to win!” position do so out of the belief that the political battle is, as Andrew Breitbart put it, a #War. But Andrew never meant that we are in a literal war. If we were, we wouldn’t stop at lying – we’d be out in the streets shooting at each other. Andrew was always of the belief that lies were not justified in politics – that we could win with the truth. He was angry at the left not just because of their policy preferences, but because they would lie to the American people. I remember when the right hated the left’s lies not because those lies were effective, but because they were morally wrong.


5. Lies Are Unnecessary For Victory.

<..snip..>

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12828/lying-bad-5-reasons-you-shouldnt-defend-trumps-ben-shapiro

No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline EasyAce

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5. Lies Are Unnecessary For Victory. This is perhaps the most contentious point, but it’s the basis of sharing a
common politics. Thanks to Democratic presidential victories in the past, many Republicans have become convinced that lying
and cheating and fibbing and indulging in conspiracism are necessary tools for victory that we can’t just leave lying around.
But you don’t have to lie to Americans to win. Donald Trump won not because he lied about Ted Cruz’s father or George W.
Bush’s Iraq policy, but because he told the truth about the threat of radical Islamic terrorism and the racialism of the
Democrats.

Lies do not become decent because you like the liar. That is particularly true in politics. The essence of fascist thinking is that
all becomes decent if the dictator does it. Just because the left has engaged in such fascistic thinking for years does not mean
the right should do so in response.

And never forget that if one tells a lie often enough people actually start believing it, poor souls.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline TomSea

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

Offline INVAR

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What did you expect in a culture and society that no longer values or respects the foundational principles that once established and maintained a civil society?

It's all about payback, retribution and power in order to exact those things now seen a more important than traditional morality.

We have new moralities - and they trump what maintained us for two centuries.

Whatever it takes is now the Supreme Rule, and the supreme law that motivates and animates.

To hell with everything else, including the Constitution.

That is what I am learning by reading and listening to both the Leftists and the Pendulum swing of the Trump faithful.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online corbe

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

@TomSea   Shooting the messenger does not, in fact, dispel the message.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Restored

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We tend to refer to anything that might possibly be false as "lying".
Countdown to Resignation

Offline EasyAce

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@TomSea   Shooting the messenger does not, in fact, dispel the message.

Reason's motto (displayed prominently on their masthead and cover with the magazine's name) is free minds and
free markets
. Maybe that, too, is offensive to some.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Frank Cannon

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I didn't vote for a Pope in November. I voted for a guy to clean this mess up.

All politicians lie and have for a long time. I have to go back to Gerald Ford to find a President that didn't.

Offline txradioguy

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

Still shooting the messenger and ignoring the message I see.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Cripplecreek

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Still shooting the messenger and ignoring the message I see.

And Trump is still a compulsive liar.

Offline EasyAce

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I didn't vote for a Pope in November. I voted for a guy to clean this mess up.

The bull in the china shop versus the cow trying to sell the shop to assorted developers. Robespierre
vs. Queen Athaliah. Some of us would have felt safer choosing between lethal injection and electric chair.

All politicians lie and have for a long time. I have to go back to Gerald Ford to find a President that didn't.

You'll have to look further back, I'm afraid. It was Ford who said in 1976 that, "There is no Soviet domination
of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration." The Warsaw Pact countries might
have begged to differ . . .


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline dfwgator

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The bull in the china shop versus the cow trying to sell the shop to assorted developers. Robespierre
vs. Queen Athaliah. Some of us would have felt safer choosing between lethal injection and electric chair.

You'll have to look further back, I'm afraid. It was Ford who said in 1976 that, "There is no Soviet domination
of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration." The Warsaw Pact countries might
have begged to differ . . .

1984 Mondale said he'd raise taxes.....How did that work out for him?

Offline EasyAce

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1984 Mondale said he'd raise taxes.....How did that work out for him?

It didn't. But the other guy was referencing presidents who lied and saying the last one he
knew not to lie was Ford. Saying he'd raise taxes kept Mondale from becoming a
lying president. ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:42:34 pm by EasyAce »


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Frank Cannon

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You'll have to look further back, I'm afraid. It was Ford who said in 1976 that, "There is no Soviet domination
of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration." The Warsaw Pact countries might
have begged to differ . . .

See. Now you ruined my life. Ford was my only example of a non lying President. Now I got nothing to believe in anymore.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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In other words, if we get what we want, screw “the rules."


If this is changed to say "If we do what is right in the end, then how we got there is less important", would that give you any change of heart?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Cripplecreek

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If this is changed to say "If we do what is right in the end, then how we got there is less important", would that give you any change of heart?

Ends justify the means thinking is a hallmark trait of progressivism.

Alinsky on ends vs means

    1. One’s concern with the ethics of means and ends varies inversely with one’s personal interest in the issue.

    2. The judgment of the ethics of means is dependent upon the political position of those sitting in judgment.

    3. In war the end justifies almost any means.

    4. Judgment must be made in the context of the times in which the action occurred and not from any other chronological vantage point.

    5. Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa.

    6. The less important the end to be desired, the more one can afford to engage in ethical evaluations of means.

    7. Generally, success or failure is a mighty determinant of ethics.

    8. The morality of a means depends upon whether the means is being employed at a time of imminent defeat or imminent victory.

    9. Any effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical.

    10. You do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.

    11. Goals must be phrased in general terms like “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity,” “Of the Common Welfare,” “Pursuit of Happiness,” or “Bread and Peace.”
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 11:42:01 pm by Cripplecreek »

HonestJohn

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

And that matters why?

HonestJohn

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If this is changed to say "If we do what is right in the end, then how we got there is less important", would that give you any change of heart?

How one does something is just as important as what was accomplished.

Or would you tolerate the mass murder of every Texan if it dismantled the EPA?

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Ends justify the means thinking is a hallmark trait of progressivism.

Alinsky on ends vs means

    1. One’s concern with the ethics of means and ends varies inversely with one’s personal interest in the issue.

    2. The judgment of the ethics of means is dependent upon the political position of those sitting in judgment.

    3. In war the end justifies almost any means.

    4. Judgment must be made in the context of the times in which the action occurred and not from any other chronological vantage point.

    5. Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa.

    6. The less important the end to be desired, the more one can afford to engage in ethical evaluations of means.

    7. Generally, success or failure is a mighty determinant of ethics.

    8. The morality of a means depends upon whether the means is being employed at a time of imminent defeat or imminent victory.

    9. Any effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical.

    10. You do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.

    11. Goals must be phrased in general terms like “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity,” “Of the Common Welfare,” “Pursuit of Happiness,” or “Bread and Peace.”

Not quite what I meant.

If one is honest and does the correct thing all the time, then that is good.

If one in the past does not do the right thing but in the end does, then that is also good.

I believe most would prefer the first guy, but the second is still doing the right thing.

What we do not need is a guy who does not do the right thing in the past or present.  That guy just left the WH.

The key is the definition of 'right'.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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How one does something is just as important as what was accomplished.

Or would you tolerate the mass murder of every Texan if it dismantled the EPA?
I do not know why you are equating a mass murderer with someone who had a change of heart.

A bit over the top.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online Right_in_Virginia

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And Trump is still a compulsive liar.

Why?  Because he's fulfilling his campaign promises?

@Cripplecreek

Online Right_in_Virginia

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How one does something is just as important as what was accomplished.

Or would you tolerate the mass murder of every Texan if it dismantled the EPA?

Come on John, honestly you're better than this extreme hyperbole.  Or, at least I hope so.

@HonestJohn

HonestJohn

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Come on John, honestly you're better than this extreme hyperbole.  Or, at least I hope so.

@HonestJohn

It's a 'test to destruction'.  If the concept fails under duress, then it's a poor concept.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Trump doesn't just lie though, his lies are so idiotic they insult your intelligence.

Silver Pines

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Red State, Daily Wire and Reason, love these sources, they were anti-Trump before the election and remain so with minimum accomplishments themselves.

@TomSea

100% untrue.  Red State praises and defends Trump when suitable, and criticizes him when warranted.  The same is true of Ben Shapiro; I see it every day on his Twitter timeline.

I suspect you want zero criticism and unqualified praise.  Since this isn't North Korea, that isn't about to happen.