Trump: - When will we fight back?

[bigheadfred]

Well, yes, I AM afraid of conservatives wasting precious time and effort on a process that has no chance of coming to fruition. There are more difficult, but potentially much more long term effective, means of bringing about a return to originalist interpretations of the constitution. While its true that the conventions would not propose amendments....though you should not doubt that constitutional proposals WILL come from powerful and influential persons involved in that process (working through their "owned" congressional representatives)...these conventions are part of any approval process.

Which is the key point...you can propose all you want, but if you can't get a supermajority of states to approve it its meaningless. The nation lacks the kind of consensus....on roughly anything...to achieve such supermajorities. Congress can't even get past the Senate's 60 vote requirement on fiscal issues...shooting for 3/4ths of anything is a total pipe dream.

Not all fear is irrational, it is often an indicator of common sense and intelligence. In this case, fearing that conservatives will expend their energies on an enticing mirage like an Article 5 convention is valid. We all want change, but there is no Article 5 shortcut to achieve it. This reminds me of the Millenial tendency to shortcuts and easy solutions when the reality is that success comes as the result of time and focused effort...there's not political lottery that can solve our nations probems.

To spin a Shakespeare phrase, the problem lies not in our constitution per se, but in ourselves. We have to change hearts and minds to fix the country, and that will be hard and frustrating. You can't skip that step with an Article 5 convention, because even a constitution stands only as long as it retains the consent of the governed.

One of the things just talking about an Article V is to let people know there is an avenue for change besides trying to vote in change-makers.

What would be your highest number one priority and indicator Trump is willing to 'drain the swamp'?

And if he fails at that do we throw our hands in the air and declaim, "We''ll get them next time"?

[Sanguine]

Well, yes, I AM afraid of conservatives wasting precious time and effort on a process that has no chance of coming to fruition. There are more difficult, but potentially much more long term effective, means of bringing about a return to originalist interpretations of the constitution. While its true that the conventions would not propose amendments....though you should not doubt that constitutional proposals WILL come from powerful and influential persons involved in that process (working through their "owned" congressional representatives)...these conventions are part of any approval process.

Which is the key point...you can propose all you want, but if you can't get a supermajority of states to approve it its meaningless. The nation lacks the kind of consensus....on roughly anything...to achieve such supermajorities. Congress can't even get past the Senate's 60 vote requirement on fiscal issues...shooting for 3/4ths of anything is a total pipe dream.

Not all fear is irrational, it is often an indicator of common sense and intelligence. In this case, fearing that conservatives will expend their energies on an enticing mirage like an Article 5 convention is valid. We all want change, but there is no Article 5 shortcut to achieve it. This reminds me of the Millenial tendency to shortcuts and easy solutions when the reality is that success comes as the result of time and focused effort...there's not political lottery that can solve our nations probems.

To spin a Shakespeare phrase, the problem lies not in our constitution per se, but in ourselves. We have to change hearts and minds to fix the country, and that will be hard and frustrating. You can't skip that step with an Article 5 convention, because even a constitution stands only as long as it retains the consent of the governed.

That's a very thorough answer. 

But - how do you propose to "change hearts and minds to fix the country"?  What will you do that hasn't been being done?

I'll be blunt - that old saw comes across as conservative virtue signalling.  "I'm not going to do anything that would require any risk or effort on my part, and I'm going to show my commitment to the cause by saying stuff that won't actually require me to do anything." 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

That's a very thorough answer. 

But - how do you propose to "change hearts and minds to fix the country"?  What will you do that hasn't been being done?

I'll be blunt - that old saw comes across as conservative virtue signalling.  "I'm not going to do anything that would require any risk or effort on my part, and I'm going to show my commitment to the cause by saying stuff that won't actually require me to do anything."

We need more effective messengers.

[Sanguine]

We need more effective messengers.

Yes, and?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Yes, and?

And what? We need to be more effective messengers and communicators. No amount of parliamentary tweaking of our founding document will overcome an ignorant population.


Period.

[Sanguine]

And what? We need to be more effective messengers and communicators. No amount of parliamentary tweaking of our founding document will overcome an ignorant population.


Period.

Of course that's true.  How do we do that, and how does that overcome those who are now supported by the system?  You think they're going to vote against it?  Are you willing to get rid of 0bamacare, for instance?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Of course that's true.  How do we do that, and how does that overcome those who are now supported by the system?  You think they're going to vote against it?  Are you willing to get rid of 0bamacare, for instance?

I'm in the minority here, I don't think we should wantonly get rid of Obamacare totally. I think we need a system that does create a safety net, while also encouraging people to go out and either get a job with HI or pay for it themselves. THe specifics are "beyond my pay grade", but I do think it's possible.


I follow a guy on Youtube who praised Obamacare because he had a pre-existing condition and could not get healthcare prior. What do you want me to tell someone like that?

[Sanguine]

I'm in the minority here, I don't think we should wantonly get rid of Obamacare totally. I think we need a system that does create a safety net, while also encouraging people to go out and either get a job with HI or pay for it themselves. THe specifics are "beyond my pay grade", but I do think it's possible.


I follow a guy on Youtube who praised Obamacare because he had a pre-existing condition and could not get healthcare prior. What do you want me to tell someone like that?

And, there it is.  You can continue to grow the leviathan or not.  You have chosen to do so and out of fear. 

What do you tell someone like that?  I am someone like that.  I have had to make adjustments to my life to have what I need to continue my life.  You are not responsible for my life.

[Cripplecreek]

And what? We need to be more effective messengers and communicators. No amount of parliamentary tweaking of our founding document will overcome an ignorant population.


Period.

I once believed conservatives to be more thoughtful and better educated overall but this last election cycle smashed that fantasy into about 10 million pieces. It was like an endless episode of the Jerry Springer show where whoever got the most hoots from the audience wins.

The utter collapse of ethics and morality played an even bigger part in getting us to where we are. So called "Conservatives" knowingly and willfully voted for a man who told the most outrageous lies we've ever seen in an election and they knew he was lying, these "moral" people simply chose to look the other way.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

And, there it is.  You can continue to grow the leviathan or not.  You have chosen to do so and out of fear. 

What do you tell someone like that?  I am someone like that.  I have had to make adjustments to my life to have what I need to continue my life.  You are not responsible for my life.

How do you convince someone that going without coverage at all, is a better situation than where he can get coverage?


You have to find the middle way IMO.

[Sanguine]

I once believed conservatives to be more thoughtful and better educated overall but this last election cycle smashed that fantasy into about 10 million pieces. It was like an endless episode of the Jerry Springer show where whoever got the most hoots from the audience wins.

The utter collapse of ethics and morality played an even bigger part in getting us to where we are. So called "Conservatives" knowingly and willfully voted for a man who told the most outrageous lies we've ever seen in an election and they knew he was lying, these "moral" people simply chose to look the other way.

So, @Cripplecreek, do you put yourself in the "nothing I can do" column or in the "let's try this last move the FF's left for us" column?   

[Cripplecreek]

So, @Cripplecreek, do you put yourself in the "nothing I can do" column or in the "let's try this last move the FF's left for us" column?

I'm in the column that has learned that most Americans are simple minded self interested greedy pigs who are just jealous of the crap government gets away with.

I will continue to oppose until Americans grow up and relearn some morals.

I'm not going to waste time treating Americans like adults.

[EC]

And anyone who thinks there currently aren't enough bright and ready people in the electorate to match the Founders flat pisses me off.

Besides, THEY ARE DEAD. It is up to the living to keep it going. WE THE PEOPLE. Not THEY THE PEOPLE. 

Sing it, Fred! 

[Sanguine]

How do you convince someone that going without coverage at all, is a better situation than where he can get coverage?


You have to find the middle way IMO.

No, sometimes there is no middle way or as in this case, the middle way is more of the same. 

And, besides, that fence sitting accomplishes nothing and gets mighty uncomfortable after a while. 

[Doug Loss]

Well, yes, I AM afraid of conservatives wasting precious time and effort on a process that has no chance of coming to fruition. There are more difficult, but potentially much more long term effective, means of bringing about a return to originalist interpretations of the constitution. While its true that the conventions would not propose amendments....though you should not doubt that constitutional proposals WILL come from powerful and influential persons involved in that process (working through their "owned" congressional representatives)...these conventions are part of any approval process.

Which is the key point...you can propose all you want, but if you can't get a supermajority of states to approve it its meaningless. The nation lacks the kind of consensus....on roughly anything...to achieve such supermajorities. Congress can't even get past the Senate's 60 vote requirement on fiscal issues...shooting for 3/4ths of anything is a total pipe dream.

Not all fear is irrational, it is often an indicator of common sense and intelligence. In this case, fearing that conservatives will expend their energies on an enticing mirage like an Article 5 convention is valid. We all want change, but there is no Article 5 shortcut to achieve it. This reminds me of the Millenial tendency to shortcuts and easy solutions when the reality is that success comes as the result of time and focused effort...there's not political lottery that can solve our nations probems.

To spin a Shakespeare phrase, the problem lies not in our constitution per se, but in ourselves. We have to change hearts and minds to fix the country, and that will be hard and frustrating. You can't skip that step with an Article 5 convention, because even a constitution stands only as long as it retains the consent of the governed.

No, state ratification conventions are not part of any approval process.  Do you really understand how this works?  Proposed constitutional amendments must be approved by 3/4s of the states.  For any proposed amendment, Congress decides whether that ratification is done by vote of the state legislatures or by state ratification conventions.  Once decided, the method used is the same for all states.  The ratification convention procedure has only been used once, in 1933 for the ratification of the 21st Amendment.  There are no state ratification conventions without a congressional decision that that is the procedure to be used for a specific amendment.  I don't know how to say this more plainly.

We can't get 3/4s of the states to agree on anything?  Well I guess that means that the Constitution can't possibly ever be amended again.  That statement is nonsensical.

As to skipping the steps by going to an Article V convention, perhaps you haven't been paying attention.  We've taken the steps you're advocating, over and over.  They didn't get us to the goal; now we're working on taking the next logical, rational, constitutional step.  Whether you're willing to take that step or too fearful that you'll step into a pothole and never be able to go further is up to you.

[musiclady]

I once believed conservatives to be more thoughtful and better educated overall but this last election cycle smashed that fantasy into about 10 million pieces. It was like an endless episode of the Jerry Springer show where whoever got the most hoots from the audience wins.

The utter collapse of ethics and morality played an even bigger part in getting us to where we are. So called "Conservatives" knowingly and willfully voted for a man who told the most outrageous lies we've ever seen in an election and they knew he was lying, these "moral" people simply chose to look the other way.

Wow.  Your words express my feelings perfectly.

A lot of, obviously false, opinions I had about Conservatives bit the proverbial dust this election cycle.

Our side has as many hypocrites and valueless people as the left does.

It's like Trump took a big nail, punched a hole in, and sucked the air out of any pretense that we had the moral high ground.

"We" are now as far down in the gutter as the left is.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

No, sometimes there is no middle way or as in this case, the middle way is more of the same. 

And, besides, that fence sitting accomplishes nothing and gets mighty uncomfortable after a while.

So you'd get rid of all government help? No ss Medicare etc? No Ssdi?

[Sanguine]

So you'd get rid of all government help? No ss Medicare etc? No Ssdi?

So you'd get rid of all government help?

Probably not, but I would leave it to the states to do.  It's just not a federal function. 

[bilo]

So you'd get rid of all government help? No ss Medicare etc? No Ssdi?

This moral high ground stuff drives me up a wall. It's more often than not spouted by people who are either looking to get something for nothing, or will be unaffected by the proposed change. obama and the rest of the socialists were very slick in how they lied about the need for healthcare reform and then instituted healthcare insurance reform that would ultimately lead to govt control of the entire industry. There never was a crisis of uninsured people not receiving care. Medicaid provides coverage for the poor. States had high risk pools before obamacare existed for people with pre-existing conditions. All hospital emergency rooms provided care whether a person was insured or not.

Probably the easiest reform to make is to change the tax code ending a business deduction for providing employees health insurance and to make individually purchased health insurance and all related health care expenses deductible on an individual's tax return. End group plans and force insurance carriers to calculate premiums on an aggregate of their policies issued nationwide. This would lower cost dramatically, but it won't happen because a majority of people 80-85% who have health insurance get it through their employer and most people want something that they perceive other people pay for.

[sneakypete]

I'm in the minority here, I don't think we should wantonly get rid of Obamacare totally. I think we need a system that does create a safety net, while also encouraging people to go out and either get a job with HI or pay for it themselves. THe specifics are "beyond my pay grade", but I do think it's possible.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

I'm with ya on that one. Of course,the name is going to have to be changed or it will never happen. The Dims are going to dig in to protect his legacy as well as their own positions,so it's going to be a uphill battle.

[Sanguine]

Yaaay!  That's the spirit!  Give in without a fight.

[Smokin Joe]

But, it is broke.  We are broke.   It's all broke.  Coasting is not an option.

While I agree with your frustration, altering or adding to the document that elected officials are ignoring (which is largely the problem) won't fix that problem any more than passing another gun law will stop school shootings.

The perpetrators are not paying any heed to the existing law, more law won't change that.

[Smokin Joe]

This moral high ground stuff drives me up a wall. It's more often than not spouted by people who are either looking to get something for nothing, or will be unaffected by the proposed change. obama and the rest of the socialists were very slick in how they lied about the need for healthcare reform and then instituted healthcare insurance reform that would ultimately lead to govt control of the entire industry. There never was a crisis of uninsured people not receiving care. Medicaid provides coverage for the poor. States had high risk pools before obamacare existed for people with pre-existing conditions. All hospital emergency rooms provided care whether a person was insured or not.

Probably the easiest reform to make is to change the tax code ending a business deduction for providing employees health insurance and to make individually purchased health insurance and all related health care expenses deductible on an individual's tax return. End group plans and force insurance carriers to calculate premiums on an aggregate of their policies issued nationwide. This would lower cost dramatically, but it won't happen because a majority of people 80-85% who have health insurance get it through their employer and most people want something that they perceive other people pay for.

You have touched on the fundamental lie of Obamacare. "Care". It has nothing to do with health care, and everything to do with insurance. Considering the money poured down the rathole and the negative effect it has had on many, it likely would have been cheaper to just pick up the bill for people who couldn't afford to pay, which was being done for emergency cases, anyway.

[Sanguine]

While I agree with your frustration, altering or adding to the document that elected officials are ignoring (which is largely the problem) won't fix that problem any more than passing another gun law will stop school shootings.

The perpetrators are not paying any heed to the existing law, more law won't change that.

Again, @Smokin Joe what do you suggest we do?

[Smokin Joe]

Again, @Smokin Joe what do you suggest we do?

Keep after the rat b@stards who aren't following the Constitution. Hound them in townhalls with hard questions, write them, write letters to the editor and op eds to expose that things just aren't supposed to work the way they are being done. Rouse a rabble and come up with challengers to take them on at the polls who will honor their oath of office and the Constitution.

There are no guarantees, but if we can't get the voters riled up at the way things are being done, there is little we can do that will be effective aside from teaching the next generations how it is supposed to work and hopint they will be able to help carry the day.

Just relating to my grandchildren days of fishing without needing a license, carrying a rifle around the farm at the ripe old age of 12 (yes, with ammo), Driving tractors (much younger), being able to take a boat out at the same age (having been raised to it), and doing a host of other things kids aren't allowed to do until they are 16 or 18 now (demonstrated responsibility led to privilege which. once gained, was status among our peers) has opened their eyes to a far more oppressive society that developed since.

Any youngster can be brought into that fold, and they often resent being told what to do anyway. That doesn't mean rebellion against decency and morality, but rebelling against the idea that they can't be responsible enough or skilled enough to do those things. Many of those I went to college with are write-offs, and a host of those since, having abdicated their birthright for the comfortable chains of the nanny state. I do not expect major change until the demographics change. That is why it is doubly important to reach out to immigrants and get them to realize their newfound relative freedom is just a taste of what it should be, even though it may seem enormous compared to life where they came from. They will be an essential part of getting back to the Constitution, because if they are on the other side, it won't happen.