Author Topic: Trump: - When will we fight back?  (Read 12324 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2016, 11:41:03 pm »
Elect better people to government...

Really?  That's it?  How's that working out for us?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2016, 11:42:45 pm »
Unless Congress and the President are willing to make the painful but needed cuts in spending, growth won't do it.

It's either cuts in spending or currency devaluation

Yep.  And, either one of them will hurt, so the majority of voters won't be willing to vote for it.  Or, for candidates who might do just that. 

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2016, 11:43:51 pm »
Really?  That's it?  How's that working out for us?
Which bring us back to whether Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread or not.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2016, 11:45:06 pm »
Which bring us back to whether Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread or not.

I prefer my bread unsliced.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2016, 11:47:17 pm »
Really?  That's it?  How's that working out for us?


Its not. That's why I am opposed to an Article V Convention. There is no way those chosen to attend a Convention will be any better than the current crop of politicians and they certainly cant match the founders.

If it ain't broke don't fix it... :shrug:

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2016, 11:48:28 pm »

Its not. That's why I am opposed to an Article V Convention. There is no way those chosen to attend a Convention will be any better than the current crop of politicians and they certainly cant match the founders.

If it ain't broke don't fix it... :shrug:

But, it is broke.  We are broke.   It's all broke.  Coasting is not an option.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2016, 11:48:29 pm »
Which bring us back to whether Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread or not.

Actually I think Trump is toast :whistle:

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2016, 11:51:15 pm »

Its not. That's why I am opposed to an Article V Convention. There is no way those chosen to attend a Convention will be any better than the current crop of politicians and they certainly cant match the founders.

If it ain't broke don't fix it... :shrug:

So you're saying we can't trust our politicians so we shouldn't do an Article V but should let them continue to do what they've been doing?

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2016, 11:52:20 pm »
But, it is broke.  We are broke.   It's all broke.  Coasting is not an option.

Yep...this is like Star Trek with Jethro as Captain Kirk...


What you are suggesting is that because the people can no longer drive the car, we need to change cars.  We need new drivers not a new car..

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2016, 11:59:56 pm »
Yep...this is like Star Trek with Jethro as Captain Kirk...


What you are suggesting is that because the people can no longer drive the car, we need to change cars.  We need new drivers not a new car..

NO!  We need to pull over and repair the car.  Restore the defaults.  And, if the driver is impaired, he needs to go to jail.  Changing drivers or changing cars is equally Jethroish.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2016, 12:04:34 am »
NO!  We need to pull over and repair the car.  Restore the defaults.  And, if the driver is impaired, he needs to go to jail.  Changing drivers or changing cars is equally Jethroish.

You have confidence the current crop of politicians can improve on the Constitution I don't....really its as simple as that... :shrug:

Offline corbe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2016, 12:15:01 am »
NO!  We need to pull over and repair the car.  Restore the defaults.  And, if the driver is impaired, he needs to go to jail.  Changing drivers or changing cars is equally Jethroish.

   An Article V Convention is a very powerful tool, that has plenty of Safeguards built into it.  But an Electorate, that elected obummer twice and Trump cannot be depended on to do the Right thing.  The full force of the willing MSM, twitter, facebook manipulation and this thing could very easily get away from our desire to rein in our current predicament.
   I've become a skeptics skeptic.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2016, 12:15:45 am »
Unless Congress and the President are willing to make the painful but needed cuts in spending, growth won't do it.

It's either cuts in spending or currency devaluation

@LMAO

Since the typical congresscritter buys the votes to stay in office by voting for "more free stuff" for the voters in his or her district,I just don't see any cuts coming that would even ease the problem,and currency devaluation would only worsen the problem by lessening the purchasing power of the dollar,which would mean the congresscritters would vote for even more spending to "make up the shortfall". THAT is a rollercoaster ride no sane person would want to take.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2016, 01:59:02 am »
You have confidence the current crop of politicians can improve on the Constitution I don't....really its as simple as that... :shrug:

OK, you're fine with what we've got.  I'm not.  I'm not willing to continue to descend.  Sorry you won't be working to improve things and work back towards being a law-based constitutional republic.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2016, 02:17:54 am »
OK, you're fine with what we've got.  I'm not.  I'm not willing to continue to descend.  Sorry you won't be working to improve things and work back towards being a law-based constitutional republic.

Good luck. I'm not fine with what we have, that's why I will continue to only vote for solid Conservatives... :shrug:

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2016, 02:33:42 am »
   An Article V Convention is a very powerful tool, that has plenty of Safeguards built into it.  But an Electorate, that elected obummer twice and Trump cannot be depended on to do the Right thing.  The full force of the willing MSM, twitter, facebook manipulation and this thing could very easily get away from our desire to rein in our current predicament.
   I've become a skeptics skeptic.

Better to do nothing out of an overabundance of concern than to throw all caution aside.

Our founders set up a system of deliberating governance that operated at a snail's pace intentionally.

Today we're talking about doing it under a president who had all kinds of progressive ideals just a little over 18 months ago. To make matters worse the bulk of that man's followers have delegated all of their thought processes to that man and can't be trusted with bg decisions.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #116 on: December 31, 2016, 02:41:27 am »
Any one out there who knows how to read should invest a little bit of time and research an Article V Convention of the States.

And anyone who thinks there currently aren't enough bright and ready people in the electorate to match the Founders flat pisses me off.

Besides, THEY ARE DEAD. It is up to the living to keep it going. WE THE PEOPLE. Not THEY THE PEOPLE.  :patriot:

She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2016, 03:34:09 am »
First, you're wrong about Congress having to agree to have such a convention.  If 2/3s of the state legislatures call for one, Congress must convene one.  It's mandatory.

Second, what you're saying about each state having its own convention makes no sense.  There will be one national Article V convention.  Each state legislature can decide to send whatever delegates it wishes.  State conventions?  You're making that up.  I have to think that you really don't know anything about this subject.

"...as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, OR by conventions in three fourths thereof...."

In many cases, conventions of a state will/could supplant the state legislature as the determinative body according to the Article. So tell me, what happens if a convention is held that contradicts what the legislature of a state votes to do....and who decides who is part of the state's "convention"? So much is unclear because this is all new stuff...and anything open to interpretation will become a point of controversy and deep division. At which point, of course, the judicial branch will become a decisive arbiter.

So you may think you've dealt with "misconceptions" but you've simply self comforted with assertions based on personal subjective views of how this process would function and what it would achieve. Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing that such a convention is innately a bad thing...just that its never going to happen.

As WeirdTolkein said, the answer is a public that's votes in a more informed and rational manner....and a leadership on our side that is effective, reasonable, and devoted to the constitution. That IS the only answer...the only answer that is feasible. Wasting your energies hoping for something like an Article 5 convention is akin to basing your financial planning on buying a winning lottery ticket. It would be a great shortcut to success....but the truth is that the real fix to our problems is good planning, smart use of our funds, and a lot of good old fashioned...and often frustrating and tedious...hard work. We can't fix this country with the shortcut your hoping for, we have to do the long and difficult way. Accept that, is my advice, and start focusing your energies on solutions that actually have a chance of being implemented.

For the record, nobody is arguing that we do nothing...on the contrary...we are arguing that we all do the hard work and put in endless years of fighting for a cause that is always going to be imperfect. There is no political "powerball" ticket that will solve all our problems in one fell swoop.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:36:50 am by Mesaclone »
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Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2016, 06:04:29 am »
Any one out there who knows how to read should invest a little bit of time and research an Article V Convention of the States.

And anyone who thinks there currently aren't enough bright and ready people in the electorate to match the Founders flat pisses me off.

Besides, THEY ARE DEAD. It is up to the living to keep it going. WE THE PEOPLE. Not THEY THE PEOPLE.  :patriot:

Sounds like the Constitution is a "living" document that needs to be interpreted by each generation? The last election gave the country the the most bright and ready people?
Pissed off? I doubt it my friend subtle humor perhaps..

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2016, 01:22:06 pm »

Sounds like the Constitution is a "living" document that needs to be interpreted by each generation? The last election gave the country the the most bright and ready people?
Pissed off? I doubt it my friend subtle humor perhaps..

The living constitution is the essence of progressivism despite the uneducated who believe it means leftism, open borders, multi-culturalism or gay marriage. After all the Progressive party of 1912 was founded by "republican" Teddy Roosevelt and the party platform was all about amending the constitution. Among the changes Roosevelt wanted (and eventually got) were social insurance (Social security), progressive taxation (Income taxes) and direct election of senators and the president.

Roosevelt failed in his election as progressive party president but provided a path forward for Woodrow Wilson who supported virtually all of the same things.

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2016, 01:45:00 pm »
"...as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, OR by conventions in three fourths thereof...."

In many cases, conventions of a state will/could supplant the state legislature as the determinative body according to the Article. So tell me, what happens if a convention is held that contradicts what the legislature of a state votes to do....and who decides who is part of the state's "convention"? So much is unclear because this is all new stuff...and anything open to interpretation will become a point of controversy and deep division. At which point, of course, the judicial branch will become a decisive arbiter.

So you may think you've dealt with "misconceptions" but you've simply self comforted with assertions based on personal subjective views of how this process would function and what it would achieve. Don't misunderstand, I'm not arguing that such a convention is innately a bad thing...just that its never going to happen.

As WeirdTolkein said, the answer is a public that's votes in a more informed and rational manner....and a leadership on our side that is effective, reasonable, and devoted to the constitution. That IS the only answer...the only answer that is feasible. Wasting your energies hoping for something like an Article 5 convention is akin to basing your financial planning on buying a winning lottery ticket. It would be a great shortcut to success....but the truth is that the real fix to our problems is good planning, smart use of our funds, and a lot of good old fashioned...and often frustrating and tedious...hard work. We can't fix this country with the shortcut your hoping for, we have to do the long and difficult way. Accept that, is my advice, and start focusing your energies on solutions that actually have a chance of being implemented.

For the record, nobody is arguing that we do nothing...on the contrary...we are arguing that we all do the hard work and put in endless years of fighting for a cause that is always going to be imperfect. There is no political "powerball" ticket that will solve all our problems in one fell swoop.

You just verified my contention that you fundamentally misunderstand all this.  The state conventions you're worried about have nothing to do with proposing constitutional amendments.  When an amendment is proposed (by either method, an Article V convention called by the states or Congress), Congress can decide if the state legislatures will do the ratifying of said amendment or if state ratifying conventions will be convened for the purpose.

And you (all Article V naysayers) misunderstand our call for such a convention, also.  By all means, keep trying to fix the things wrong with our system by doing the same things we've been doing for decades.  Maybe they'll work this time!  We don't think such efforts will hurt anything; we just don't think they're likely to suddenly succeed where they've failed for so long.  Instead, we think we should make use of all the tools available to us, especially ones that haven't been tried before.

Will an Article V convention succeed as we'd like?  No one can say for sure.  All we can say for sure is that none of the methods you folks want to continue using (to the exclusion of any new ones) have succeeded so far.  We're not afraid of trying the one constitutional method designed specifically for this purpose.  What we don't understand is why you're so fearful.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2016, 02:06:17 pm »

Sounds like the Constitution is a "living" document that needs to be interpreted by each generation? The last election gave the country the the most bright and ready people?
Pissed off? I doubt it my friend subtle humor perhaps..

When I said "bright and ready people in the electorate" I am talking about people like our own @Doug Loss.

Shine on his attempts if you must. I'm not.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2016, 03:02:21 pm »
You just verified my contention that you fundamentally misunderstand all this.  The state conventions you're worried about have nothing to do with proposing constitutional amendments.  When an amendment is proposed (by either method, an Article V convention called by the states or Congress), Congress can decide if the state legislatures will do the ratifying of said amendment or if state ratifying conventions will be convened for the purpose.

And you (all Article V naysayers) misunderstand our call for such a convention, also.  By all means, keep trying to fix the things wrong with our system by doing the same things we've been doing for decades.  Maybe they'll work this time!  We don't think such efforts will hurt anything; we just don't think they're likely to suddenly succeed where they've failed for so long.  Instead, we think we should make use of all the tools available to us, especially ones that haven't been tried before.

Will an Article V convention succeed as we'd like?  No one can say for sure.  All we can say for sure is that none of the methods you folks want to continue using (to the exclusion of any new ones) have succeeded so far.  We're not afraid of trying the one constitutional method designed specifically for this purpose.  What we don't understand is why you're so fearful.

QFT!  And, bolded for emphasis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:02:46 pm by Sanguine »

Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2016, 03:08:48 pm »
QFT!  And, bolded for emphasis.

I second that affirmation!

Great post, @Doug Loss!
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Trump: - When will we fight back?
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2016, 03:17:58 pm »
QFT!  And, bolded for emphasis.

Well, yes, I AM afraid of conservatives wasting precious time and effort on a process that has no chance of coming to fruition. There are more difficult, but potentially much more long term effective, means of bringing about a return to originalist interpretations of the constitution. While its true that the conventions would not propose amendments....though you should not doubt that constitutional proposals WILL come from powerful and influential persons involved in that process (working through their "owned" congressional representatives)...these conventions are part of any approval process.

Which is the key point...you can propose all you want, but if you can't get a supermajority of states to approve it its meaningless. The nation lacks the kind of consensus....on roughly anything...to achieve such supermajorities. Congress can't even get past the Senate's 60 vote requirement on fiscal issues...shooting for 3/4ths of anything is a total pipe dream.

Not all fear is irrational, it is often an indicator of common sense and intelligence. In this case, fearing that conservatives will expend their energies on an enticing mirage like an Article 5 convention is valid. We all want change, but there is no Article 5 shortcut to achieve it. This reminds me of the Millenial tendency to shortcuts and easy solutions when the reality is that success comes as the result of time and focused effort...there's not political lottery that can solve our nations probems.

To spin a Shakespeare phrase, the problem lies not in our constitution per se, but in ourselves. We have to change hearts and minds to fix the country, and that will be hard and frustrating. You can't skip that step with an Article 5 convention, because even a constitution stands only as long as it retains the consent of the governed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:20:34 pm by Mesaclone »
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