Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 26906 times)

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Offline skeeter

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Could it be because the white, straight, male Christians among us have never suffered such discrimination in their lives?     

So according to you straight white male Christians face no disapprobation or public scorn in our society?

Theres a real knee slapper.

Offline roamer_1

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My grandparents were Masons.  I could be a Mason if I chose.  If I'd have lived in the 1700-1800s, I'd have joined.

But Masonry is relatively benign - a social group - until you get into the high degrees. Just being a Mason is not necessarily nefarious. However, I will assert that Masonic influence is what kept the credit and name of YHWH/Jehovah and Yeshua/Jesus from entering our legal documents... And that may well be our downfall.

But the larger intent - that written in the Federalist Papers, that demonstrated in using the Bible for jurist precedence, that which is emphasized is Christian tolerance for freedom of conscience.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 08:25:26 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline SirLinksALot

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Except that the law we've been discussing doesn't violate the First Amendment.   Engaging in a commercial business is a privilege, not a right,  and you are obliged to temper your religious fervor if it results in the arbitrary degradation of your customers.

Sure commercial business is a privilege. However, exercising a privilege does not mean that one's First Amendment rights are therefore null and void when one exercises it. So, if the First Amendment is designed to protect anything, it is the right NOT to act against one's conscience INCLUDING DOING BUSINESS.

So, the statement that says : "C'mon, folks,  all I saying is stay true to your word.   You advertise wedding cakes, then bake wedding cakes." actually MISSES what should be implicitly understood in the advertisement, and here it is --- AS LONG AS WHAT I DO WILL NOT VIOLATE MY DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS.

Hence, One does not say to a Black Printer --- "C'mon folks, all I'm saying is stay true to your word. You advertise printing invitations, then print invitations" ( even when it includes invitations to a Ku Klux Klan gathering ).

Usually missed in the commentary on this subject is that the business in question ( like the Christian bakers) are not refusing service to a type of people — they are refusing to be party to A TYPE OF MESSAGE. This is not debatable. When you put writing on a same-sex “wedding” cake, you’re crafting a message; if you place figurines (of two men in matrimony, for instance) on that cake, you’re erecting symbols relating that message. Note here that the Supreme Court has already ruled that “Symbolic Speech” — a legal term in U.S. law — is protected under the First Amendment; examples of such rulings would be that pertaining to flag-burning and the Tinker v. Des Moines case.

And can we compel people to participate in the creation of a message? Forced speech is not free speech.

Not wanting to use one's skill or talent to participate in the celebration of an act or not wanting to participate in writing or forming a message that violates one's conscience is NOT an arbitrary degradation of customers. It is simply declining to be party to writing a message one deeply disagrees with. It has nothing to do with the person in question. Why should my disagreeing with someone's message be taken as degrading him?  Look, you disagree with a lot of people in this thread, I hope you are not equating their disagreeing with you with degrading you.

This is especially NOT TRUE if the customer has many other businesses who would gladly profit from doing the thing others find objectionable and would not want to do. hence, the simple solution is this --- GO TO A BUSINESS THAT WILL GLADLY DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:24:29 pm by SirLinksALot »

Offline CSM

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I bolded some of the text.

Note that these rights are inherent to people, first by nature, then by G-d.  In essence, the writers understood that people's fundamental nature require these rights.

And never once do they ever speak of whose G-d that is. 

Most of the language used is of 'the Creator', which all faiths have.

Are you then in agreement that our right to our own property is a natural right and that it is unalienable?  It sounds like you agree with that position.  If that is the case, then we are aligned that the decision as to how to use property is simply and only a decision to be made by the owner of that property.  Any other position is a position supporting tyranny.

geronl

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So according to you straight white male Christians face no disapprobation or public scorn in our society?

Theres a real knee slapper.

Imagine you are the low bidder on a government contract and they give it to someone else whose bid is 5% more solely because they are a minority or used a minority as a front. It makes no sense that the government is allowed to discriminate rampantly while the rest of us are forced to serve the most obscene of things.

Offline CSM

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Why is the harm caused by arbitrary discrimination so blithely dismissed?   Could it be because the white, straight, male Christians among us have never suffered such discrimination in their lives?     

I am still waiting for you to tell us the actual "harm" caused to the customer who could not buy a product or service from any other specific person.  How is anyone "harmed" by not being able to purchase the artistic invitations from the couple in the article?

Well, this white heterosexual DID experience harm while walking by a group of non-whites who happened to be partying in the parking lot of my barracks.  One member of that group hollered, "There's a white boy, let's get him" and the next thing you know I was jumped and beaten down.  But keep spouting your collectivist mantras of our college campuses today.

Offline CSM

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Then you have not read the Federalist papers.

Neither have I.  I keep trying, but I simply don't seem to be able to muster enough intellectual power to keep with it!  Kudos to those of you that have!

Offline roamer_1

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Sure commercial business is a privilege.

I will disagree with you here - As the engine of the 'pursuit of happiness' I would consider owning a business a right.

Quote
Usually missed in the commentary on this subject is that the business in question ( like the Christian bakers) are not refusing service to a type of people — they are refusing to be party to A TYPE OF MESSAGE. This is not debatable. When you put writing on a same-sex “wedding” cake, you’re crafting a message; if you place figurines (of two men in matrimony, for instance) on that cake, you’re erecting symbols relating that message. Note here that the Supreme Court has already ruled that “Symbolic Speech” — a legal term in U.S. law — is protected under the First Amendment; examples of such rulings would be that pertaining to flag-burning and the Tinker v. Des Moines case.


A VERY good point.

Offline roamer_1

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Neither have I.  I keep trying, but I simply don't seem to be able to muster enough intellectual power to keep with it!  Kudos to those of you that have!

A little bit at a time will get you along... Actually a better way IMHO... Read one of the founders and then stop and savor that much... then the next, and so on... better, I think, to find the distinctions in thought...

And do not miss Blackstone (English Common Law) for the framework it provides... Even though it is meant for a monarchy...

Offline roamer_1

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I am still waiting for you to tell us the actual "harm" caused to the customer who could not buy a product or service from any other specific person.


Nothing but butthurt, which.... nevermind...

Offline Sanguine

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Imagine you are the low bidder on a government contract and they give it to someone else whose bid is 5% more solely because they are a minority or used a minority as a front. It makes no sense that the government is allowed to discriminate rampantly while the rest of us are forced to serve the most obscene of things.

And, many of us would argue that that is not constitutional.

Offline The_Reader_David

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I love the hysteria on this thread.  For my suggestion that a shop owner follow the law and not discriminate regarding services he's advertised to provide,  I've been called a pervert, a communist,  and accused of being akin to Kim Jung-Il of North Korea.  Meanwhile that suggestion has been compared to "servitude",  and "celebration of tyranny" at the point of "government guns", and the slippery slope that will lead to the end of our inalienable rights.

C'mon, folks,  all I saying is stay true to your word.   You advertise wedding cakes, then bake wedding cakes.   If you don't want to sell wedding cakes,  then that's fine too.   Why is the right to ignore the community's quite reasonable rules so highly prized?   Why is the harm caused by arbitrary discrimination so blithely dismissed?   Could it be because the white, straight, male Christians among us have never suffered such discrimination in their lives?     

I have thus far refrained from commenting on this thread, but since you are still at it days later, I think you should be reminded that your version depends on telling the story starting in the middle:

The story goes like this:

From time immemorial not only in Christian cultures, but the world over, marriage has involved a man and a woman being given social (and later religious and legal) sanction to have sex, have children, stay together to raise their children.  In Christian societies it has been see as blessed by God, in light of various remarks of Jesus in Christian Scripture, the protection offered it in the Old Covenant Law ("Thou shalt not commit adultery"), and the like.

Governments chose to regulate the institution (which is older than any government) for the benefit of society (e.g. so the parentage of orphans could be more easily ascertained, to suppress child marriage,...) and to encourage it as a socially beneficial institution (e.g. by according married couples rights vis-a-vis inheritance, by favorable tax status).

While this was the state of affairs, pious Christians went into business to also support the institution by, for instance, providing art works (hand lettered invitations, decorated cakes,...) or providing venues for weddings.

The government on the plea that its regulation of marriage constituted marriage, changed the definition of marriage to include things which Christians regard not only as not blessed, but as sinful.  Now, the rules of the game having been changed in mid-game, all the pious Christians who ran businesses in support of weddings when they were the formation and celebration of marriage as understood by Christian civilization for centuries prior to that decision are to be put out of business because you and your ilk want to equate wishing to provide services for weddings as traditionally understood, but not for celebrations of the newly-government-redefined notion of "marriage" when what is being celebrated is in traditional Christian understanding immoral, with Jim Crow.

Your position makes the wall of separation between Church and State into a bulldozer-blade with the State driving it to scrape the Church out of society:  just redefine terms so that the Church has no space and the State is supreme.  One court decision, and hey presto! What had thirty years prior been a generally held moral precept becomes "bigotry" and "discrimination".



And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline roamer_1

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Your position makes the wall of separation between Church and State into a bulldozer-blade with the State driving it to scrape the Church out of society:  just redefine terms so that the Church has no space and the State is supreme.  One court decision, and hey presto! What had thirty years prior been a generally held moral precept becomes "bigotry" and "discrimination".

Very good - all I could add is that the separation (as ill defined as it is) was meant to protect the church from governmental interference - and not the other way around. We are a far cry from that.

HonestJohn

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I have thus far refrained from commenting on this thread, but since you are still at it days later, I think you should be reminded that your version depends on telling the story starting in the middle:

The story goes like this:

From time immemorial not only in Christian cultures, but the world over, marriage has involved a man and a woman being given social (and later religious and legal) sanction to have sex, have children, stay together to raise their children.  In Christian societies it has been see as blessed by God, in light of various remarks of Jesus in Christian Scripture, the protection offered it in the Old Covenant Law ("Thou shalt not commit adultery"), and the like.

Governments chose to regulate the institution (which is older than any government) for the benefit of society (e.g. so the parentage of orphans could be more easily ascertained, to suppress child marriage,...) and to encourage it as a socially beneficial institution (e.g. by according married couples rights vis-a-vis inheritance, by favorable tax status).

While this was the state of affairs, pious Christians went into business to also support the institution by, for instance, providing art works (hand lettered invitations, decorated cakes,...) or providing venues for weddings.

The government on the plea that its regulation of marriage constituted marriage, changed the definition of marriage to include things which Christians regard not only as not blessed, but as sinful.  Now, the rules of the game having been changed in mid-game, all the pious Christians who ran businesses in support of weddings when they were the formation and celebration of marriage as understood by Christian civilization for centuries prior to that decision are to be put out of business because you and your ilk want to equate wishing to provide services for weddings as traditionally understood, but not for celebrations of the newly-government-redefined notion of "marriage" when what is being celebrated is in traditional Christian understanding immoral, with Jim Crow.

Your position makes the wall of separation between Church and State into a bulldozer-blade with the State driving it to scrape the Church out of society:  just redefine terms so that the Church has no space and the State is supreme.  One court decision, and hey presto! What had thirty years prior been a generally held moral precept becomes "bigotry" and "discrimination".

And the moment the 'government', whomever it is, seized control over marriage, it ceased to be a wholly religious act.

It became a secular one, defined by man.

At one point, they were kings.  Now politicians.

If one wants to define marriage in religious terms, then it must be limited strictly to religion authorities.  Not the secular, governmental authorities.

But watch how people react to that idea.

People *WANT* secular marriage.  Just defined by their religion.

HonestJohn

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Maybe I'm dense here. How would does the Mason issue change what the rights of man are as recorded in the Constitution? Your going to have to spell it out. 

That different sects and denominations is the whole reason we have a first amendment...

The rights of man are not exclusive to one person, that of the business owner.  They apply to ALL, regardless of their religion.

And as soon as the business owner claims his 'right' to refuse service based on one of those natural rights (religion)...

... then one must consider the natural rights of all the parties involved.

No longer is it the sole discretion of the business owner.

Offline thackney

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People *WANT* secular marriage.  Just defined by their religion.

Not all of us.  I want government out of it.  My pastor should not be forced to become an agent of the state.  Civil legal unions should be a separate event from a religious marriage.
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Offline roamer_1

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If one wants to define marriage in religious terms, then it must be limited strictly to religion authorities.  Not the secular, governmental authorities.


Not going to happen. The Family is the smallest governable (taxable, controllable) unit. Hetero marriage is in the government's interest.

HonestJohn

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Are you then in agreement that our right to our own property is a natural right and that it is unalienable?  It sounds like you agree with that position.  If that is the case, then we are aligned that the decision as to how to use property is simply and only a decision to be made by the owner of that property.  Any other position is a position supporting tyranny.

Yes, generally I am.

That said, once the business owner claims his natural rights, then one must consider the natural rights of all the parties involved.  One cannot infringe on the natural rights of one at the expense of another's rights.

And as soon as the business owner sought to justify his actions on religious grounds, they open the door on judging this on all parties and all their natural rights.

---

Had the business owner said, "I just can't do this."...

I wouldn't be arguing the matter.

But he didn't.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:39:50 pm by HonestJohn »

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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The rights of man are not exclusive to one person, that of the business owner.  They apply to ALL, regardless of their religion.

And as soon as the business owner claims his 'right' to refuse service based on one of those natural rights (religion)...

... then one must consider the natural rights of all the parties involved.

No longer is it the sole discretion of the business owner.

Which brings us back to whether the expectation of the person seeking the service takes precedent over the right of the person being forced to perform the service? And why?
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

HonestJohn

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Which brings us back to whether the expectation of the person seeking the service takes precedent over the right of the person being forced to perform the service? And why?

Now that we are able to realize that both parties have natural rights which cannot be infringed by the other, we can now stop arguing that the business owner has some special right to infringe on the customer's rights.

So this line of arguing is moot.

So we turn to contract and advertising law.  If a business advertises they sell something, then they must sell it.

Else we have false advertising.

So if a baker advertises that they sell wedding cakes, then they must sell wedding cakes to customers.

Anything else is false advertising.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Now that we are able to realize that both parties have natural rights which cannot be infringed by the other, we can now stop arguing that the business owner has some special right to infringe on the customer's rights.

So this line of arguing is moot.

So we turn to contract and advertising law.  If a business advertises they sell something, then they must sell it.

Else we have false advertising.

So if a baker advertises that they sell wedding cakes, then they must sell wedding cakes to customers.

Anything else is false advertising.
No it's an expectation not a right. I haven't seen anywhere in the Constitutions that this is a right? On what do you base that this is a right to start with? It is a tacit agreement. As mentioned earlier not even written contracts are upheld in every case by the courts and unspoken or assumed agreement is even less binding.

Why does the customers expectation take precedent over the first amendment or the right I have to my property or my labor hours to use and employ at my discretion; the basis of a free exchange?

Otherwise rights are violated when I sell my truck and somebody calls me an hour later to buy it. Are rights violated if a photograph is already book on the weekend you want him? I can't think of any court cases where even blatant false advertising was considered a human rights violation, can you?
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

HonestJohn

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No it's an expectation not a right. I haven't seen anywhere in the Constitutions that this is a right? On what do you base that this is a right to start with? It is a tacit agreement. As mentioned earlier not even written contracts are upheld in every case by the courts and unspoken or assumed agreement is even less binding.

Why does the customers expectation take precedent over the first amendment or the right I have to my property or my labor hours to use and employ at my discretion; the basis of a free exchange?

Otherwise rights are violated when I sell my truck and somebody calls me an hour later to buy it. Are rights violated if a photograph is already book on the weekend you want him? I can't think of any court cases where even blatant false advertising was considered a human rights violation, can you?

And now we're back to the natural rights argument.  That somehow the business owners rights trump the customers.

They don't.  Both are equally valid.

So this line of argument is bunkem.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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I will and do refuse to do business with anyone I please.  To say that you have the right to force me to do business with you is ridiculous.  Good luck with that.
Kind of like the right to internet, cellphones, housing, and a $15 an hour job. A right that requires the government to steal from someone else is not a right. Real rights, endowed by our creator, do not require anyone to pay for them.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline roamer_1

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And now we're back to the natural rights argument.  That somehow the business owners rights trump the customers.

They don't.  Both are equally valid.

So this line of argument is bunkem.

Not true. Possession belongs to the seller, whether labor or durable goods. Likely the store or facility belongs to the seller, thus the buyer is only there at the seller's leave, and only able to buy at the seller's eave... The right to sell belongs to the seller. There is no deal until there is an official bargain made (handshake, verbal or written contract or order, exchange of money or like-in-kind (promissory note for example)... The seller is under no obligation to sell or provide until the deal is struck.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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And now we're back to the natural rights argument.  That somehow the business owners rights trump the customers.

They don't.  Both are equally valid.

So this line of argument is bunkem.
Why is the expectation equally valid? Because I say so doesn't work on this kid, and it never did.

If I were to grant that they were equally valid, which they are not, why give the preference to the customer via government coercion?

If you view them as equally valid how do you propose to reconcile this? A coin toss?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:05:30 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour