Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding

[Jazzhead]

These are two different things --- The existence of the law and whether or not the law in and of itself is constitutional.

If a law VIOLATES the First Amendment, it ought to be repealed.

Except that the law we've been discussing doesn't violate the First Amendment.   Engaging in a commercial business is a privilege, not a right,  and you are obliged to temper your religious fervor if it results in the arbitrary degradation of your customers.   

[Jazzhead]

Better to obey God than men.

Fine, just be willing to accept the consequences of your nihilism. 

[Jazzhead]

I am willing to DIE to refuse that imposition.

Then you're a fool. 

[HonestJohn]

"Religion is a bullshit excuse for arbitrary discrimination in this situation."

Come on, if one says the 14th amendment of the Constitution settles it, what does the 1st amendment mean?  Freedom of religion.

What people forget is that one's freedoms stop at the boundaries of another's freedoms.

One has the frredom of religion until it impacts the freedoms of another.  And vice versa.

[INVAR]

Fine, just be willing to accept the consequences of your nihilism.

Oh, I'm ready.

You ready to risk the same or worse to attempt to impose your wickedness on me?

Then you're a fool. 

Yes, to the wicked and the Godless and the immoral - the things of God are but foolish to the 'wise' of this world. (I Corinthians 2:14)

I am happy to be a fool for Christ.

Ultimately, the fool is you since the things of God are but foolish to someone considering themselves 'wise'.

[roamer_1]

Failing to bake a cake for a civil wedding has nothing to do with following the "clear and unambiguous dictates" of Christianity. 

Oh yes, it absolutely does. I have also cut business relations with known fornicators and adulterers. One of my biggest clients was shown the door for what he did to dishonor his wife. There I go, arbitrarily discriminating again.

If anything, the Bible teaches us to honor our promises and treat our neighbors as we'd like to be treated ourselves.

It also teaches to have nothing to do with the lawless (as pertains to Torah). It also teaches to distinguish between the holy, the common, and the profane, and to flee from that which is not good.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

You are part of a community and a nation.  The American republic is a nation of laws, not of men.   Indulge your selfish nihilism, but don't expect the Lord to assist when you're sued for breaking the rules that order a civil society.

The laws of this nation are built on the Bible. Starting with the Pilgrims and the Puritans America has been a nation built on it's moral code with Freedom of religion as its primary objective. You are going to have to bring some ammunition as to why the expectation that someone will sell you something trumps a what is a basic human right.

[roamer_1]

Engaging in a commercial business is a privilege, not a right

That is an unmitigated falsehood.

[roamer_1]

What people forget is that one's freedoms stop at the boundaries of another's freedoms.

That border has historically been the threshold of my property.

[HonestJohn]

The only remedy you are espousing is TYRANNY.

You want to try come and force me to create homosexual wedding invitations and advertisement vehicles because I am a graphic designer - you can go ahead and cheer the government's agents putting a gun to my head to force me to comply, or have my business destroyed - and I will continue to state that I will obey God before I will EVER submit to tyrants like yourself.

I don't give a damn that pervert supporters like you demand I comply with supporting behavioral deviancy simply because you call it discrimination.

I am willing to DIE to refuse that imposition.

You willing to DIE to impose yours?

I want no part of a society that makes Sodom and Gomorrah blush, and I will resist it's attempted imposition on my life, business and family.

Better to obey God than men.

If you are a graphics designer that advertises that he creates wedding invitations, then a customer has every right to expect you will create wedding invitations for customers that will walk through your door.

[roamer_1]

If you are a graphics designer that advertises that he creates wedding invitations, then a customer has every right to expect you will create wedding invitations for customers that will walk through your door.

There is no such right. There might be that expectation, but it is not a right. Rights begin when the deal is struck.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

If you are a graphics designer that advertises that he creates wedding invitations, then a customer has every right to expect you will create wedding invitations for customers that will walk through your door.

Expectation are hardly rights. Courts don't even always uphold written contracts under certain circumstances, much less tacit agreements.

For instance, said graphics designer may already be booked, or on vacation this week. You can't sue them for that.

[CSM]

The customer's an individual too, and he's the one being victimized by a storeowner who degrades him by refusing to provide an advertised service.

 

Do I  become a "victim" when my local grocery store advertises Christmas hams at greatly reduced prices, yet when I get there they are sold out? 

You've thrown the term "victim" out quite a few times, and quite frankly your standard meaning of that word is fitting for the average college student sitting in safe spaces.  The inability to purchase a good or service does not make anyone a victim.  The abuse of the property owner is the act of victimizing an otherwise free person by denying the property owner of an unalienable right. 

You don't understand freedom or property rights.  I'd suggest you do some studying on the subject.  That might help you understand the issue.

[Jazzhead]

The laws of this nation are built on the Bible. Starting with the Pilgrims and the Puritans America has been a nation built on it's moral code with Freedom of religion as its primary objective. You are going to have to bring some ammunition as to why the expectation that someone will sell you something trumps a what is a basic human right.

Yes, freedom of religion is a right.  But, as with any right, the problems start when one person's right infringes on the rights of another.   It's one thing for a baker to not practice homosexuality, it's quite another for that baker to arbitrarily impose his morality on the customers who seek the very services he advertises.

We are members of a community built on respect for the law and the rights of others (not just our selfish view of our own rights).   Religious nihilism is contrary to the ORDERED liberty that is the hallmark of the American experiment.     

[Sanguine]

Failing to bake a cake for a civil wedding has nothing to do with following the "clear and unambiguous dictates" of Christianity.  If anything, the Bible teaches us to honor our promises and treat our neighbors as we'd like to be treated ourselves.

 If you believe homosexuality is an abominable sin,  don't indulge in the practice.  If you happen to be born gay (sexual orientation is not a choice, if you need proof just ask the question of yourself), then remain celibate and thank the Lord for your misery.

 

Your remarks indicate that you might be just a tiny bit rusty in the theological area. 

My rights come from God, not the federal government.

As for the silly neighbor argument about how one treat's one's neighbors, that only works if you start from the position that "gay marriage" is supportable.  Which those who follow the Abrahamic religions and many of the non-Abrahamic religions do not. 

And, it's not about my neighbors' feelings or wants, or mine for that matter.  Some things are much bigger than our desires.

[HonestJohn]

Expectation are hardly rights. Courts don't even always uphold written contracts under certain circumstances, much less tacit agreements.

For instance, said graphics designer may already be booked, or on vacation this week. You can't sue them for that.

You are right about that.

Where it fails is when the business owner turns to the first amendment for the 'right' to discriminate.  For then it olens the door to judge whether that impacts the customers rights... which are equally valid.

[Jazzhead]

Do I  become a "victim" when my local grocery store advertises Christmas hams at greatly reduced prices, yet when I get there they are sold out? 

You've thrown the term "victim" out quite a few times, and quite frankly your standard meaning of that word is fitting for the average college student sitting in safe spaces.  The inability to purchase a good or service does not make anyone a victim.  The abuse of the property owner is the act of victimizing an otherwise free person by denying the property owner of an unalienable right. 

You don't understand freedom or property rights.  I'd suggest you do some studying on the subject.  That might help you understand the issue.

You don't help your "argument" by such a display of ignorance.   You have no inherent right to the law's protection in running a commercial business.   You must adhere to the rules of the community consistent with the Constitution.   You must maintain the proper permits,  pay your taxes,  and adhere to various other regulations.   You're free as a citizen to lobby and vote for representatives that will lessen those regulatory burdens.   But you cannot claim "religion" as an excuse to flout the community's rules.   

[HonestJohn]

Your remarks indicate that you might be just a tiny bit rusty in the theological area. 

My rights come from God, not the federal government.

As for the silly neighbor argument about how one treat's one's neighbors, that only works if you start from the position that "gay marriage" is supportable.  Which those who follow the Abrahamic religions and many of the non-Abrahamic religions do not. 

And, it's not about my neighbors' feelings or wants, or mine for that matter.  Some things are much bigger than our desires.

But you worship a false god, so you now have no rights at all.

See how dangerous that line of thinking can be?

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Yes, freedom of religion is a right.  But, as with any right, the problems start when one person's right infringes on the rights of another.   It's one thing for a baker to not practice homosexuality, it's quite another for that baker to arbitrarily impose his morality on the customers who seek the very services he advertises.

We are members of a community built on respect for the law and the rights of others (not just our selfish view of our own rights).   Religious nihilism is contrary to the ORDERED liberty that is the hallmark of the American experiment.   

So their expectation (I can't say I'm convinced it's a right) to buy ends where my religious rights begin. You can turn that around either way. The question is which takes precedence and why?

I'm a little confused by what you mean by religious nihilism?

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
synonyms:   skepticism, negativity, cynicism, pessimism

extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.
historical
the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party circa 1900, which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.

It's my rejection of nihilism, my belief that I will stand before me creator and savior and be called into account for my actions, that makes me take the stand I do.

[CSM]

You don't help your "argument" by such a display of ignorance.   You have no inherent right to the law's protection in running a commercial business.   You must adhere to the rules of the community consistent with the Constitution.   You must maintain the proper permits,  pay your taxes,  and adhere to various other regulations.   You're free as a citizen to lobby and vote for representatives that will lessen those regulatory burdens.   But you cannot claim "religion" as an excuse to flout the community's rules.

It is not an "inherent" right.  It is an unalienable right, as described in the Declaration of Independence.  That means that my right to how I utilize my own property cannot be infringed.  Period.  You may be an advocate of the use of government guns to force property owners to bow to your preferences, but that is quite simply the celebration of tyranny.

If you don't like that I don't offer my time and property to a certain segment of society, you are free to offer them the service from your own property.  That is how a society is held together.  It is how all of us can get along and sort these issues out.  Without this respect for private property rights, all of society will collapse very quickly and it will be replaced with dictatorial commands as to how property is utilized. 

BTW, I have not used "religion" once in this discussion.  I have used liberty, freedom and private property rights as the basis for my position.

[Free Vulcan]

Why shouldn't a customer expect the service that the business owner advertises that he provides?   What's unreasonable to expect the business owner to live up to his word?  Religion is a bullshit excuse for arbitrary discrimination in this situation.

Actually IMO it's the other way around. It's the govt trying to enforce it's religion arbitrarily on the business owner, in this case leftists forcing the ideology as policy down the throats of owners based on unelected tribunals of bureaucrats decreeing that this group or that groups is now 'protected'. Often times at odd with existing law or even facts itself.

Transgenders are the perfect example. There is ZERO facts, zero science, or anything real whatsoever about someone declaring themselves to be a different sex by 'identifying' as that sex. Yet not only are businesses supposed to recognize that, in places like New York their supposed to correctly call them by their proper pronoun for all 40+ recognized genders, as I stated earlier. None of this is anything but twisting the existing law to fit the liberal agenda, as the law does not read any accommodation for gender.

And they are trying to expand the definition of 'public accommodation' to clubs, churches, and just about anything that isn't protected by armed guards and 'keep out' signs, regardless if they sell on dime's worth of stuff or not. They're doing that right now here in Iowa.

And not only do they force business owners to serve any of their protected groups, they attempt to give these groups near unlimited rights to receive any service they desire. Fortunately the courts have limited some of that. Yet these same unelected bodies, like in Colorado, refuse to punish a gay bakery when their customer requests something they don't like.

That is what I call arbitrary. Very little of this is being driven by anything but a cult like devotion to a very one-sided religion masquerading as ideology and being passed off as policy.

[roamer_1]

it's quite another for that baker to arbitrarily impose his morality on the customers who seek the very services he advertises.

Then Jewish delis should have to sell pork sandwiches. After all, many delis sell pork sandwiches... anyone walking into a deli should expect to see pork sandwiches on the menu! If you want a pork sandwich so badly, why not just wander down the street and buy a pork sandwich from the guy that doesn't mind selling it to you?

We are members of a community built on respect for the law and the rights of others (not just our selfish view of our own rights).   

this is not a community issue - If you want this crap where you live, have at it. Federal diktat handed down by judicial fiat is not capable of being couched in 'community'.

Religious nihilism is contrary to the ORDERED liberty that is the hallmark of the American experiment.   

indeed it is. Nihilism is lawlessness. Read that into your statement. Writing moral turpitude into law does not make it lawful - It makes the law lawless.

[CSM]

But you worship a false god, so you now have no rights at all.

See how dangerous that line of thinking can be?

Are you advocating that rights are not natural?  From the Declaration, "the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,"

In other words, we are all entitled to the rights that are given to us, first naturally, and secondly by God.  Those rights make us unique (separate) individuals and equally entitled to these natural rights.

[INVAR]

If you are a graphics designer that advertises that he creates wedding invitations, then a customer has every right to expect you will create wedding invitations for customers that will walk through your door.

I will not create ANY kind of marketing vehicle that acknowledges, celebrates or condones a wicked perversion, nor will I create any marketing vehicle that goes against my political principles.

Been doing that for 35 years.

You want to try and sue me into compliance or take my property away from me because I refuse to soil my conscience and create that which is anathema to my faith and principles?  You become no different than Communists who demand the eradication of religion to make the State a god.

[INVAR]

Engaging in a commercial business is a privilege, not a right.

That is an unmitigated falsehood.

Yes it is an unmitigated falsehood, but today when you have enough people who ascribe to the religion of 'you didn't build that' - it is inevitable that these same people will soon tell us that your private property is a privilege and not a right, and shortly following - your beliefs are a privilege, and not a right.

And then we become North Korea - thanks to people like Jazzhead.