Poll

Did Federal, Presidential high level leaders know ahead of time Pearl Harbor was coming; had set it up to happen; insured it happened?

Absolutely. The historical evidence is exceedingly conclusive from  multiple sources
3 (11.1%)
Nonsense. Totally fabricated conspiracy hogwash with absolutely no foundation in fact
21 (77.8%)
I believe it was at about the 80-95% level. It's horrible to admit it but the evidence is there.
2 (7.4%)
I think there may be a 5-15% chance a lot of it was set-up and insured to happen but I don't want to face such a horrible probability.
1 (3.7%)
Indeed. The globalist oligarchy has been ruthlessly at work a long time.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: December 10, 2016, 03:32:02 am

Author Topic: R U Aware/Do U Believe Pearl Harbor Was Deliberately Set-up & Allowed to Happen?  (Read 7962 times)

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Offline Quix

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When I visited the USS Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor, there was a survivor there. The was FIERCELY hostile to the whole idea that our leaders were complicit in the event.

Initially, I was open to the idea but shocked at it. I was open because I'd studied globalism enough to know they were capable of anything. I just didn't want to face it.

The more I've researched it--the more emphatically clear the evidence has become.

Nonsense to the contrary, imho, is just that--debunking with an agenda trying to cloud the truth with doubt.
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Here are some links about such evidence:
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"Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack"
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8932197/Pearl-Harbour-memo-shows-US-warned-of-Japanese-attack.html
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= = = =
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Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
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http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4740-pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not
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= = = =
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Essential Pearl Harbor: "How much did Roosevelt know--The US Perspective?
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http://www.ospreypearlharbor.com/debate/roosevelt%20.php
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emphases added below.
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= = = =
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Do Freedom  of Information Act Files Prove FDR Had Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor?
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http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
.
Quote
An Interview with Robert B. Stinnett by Douglas Cirignano
.
On November 25, 1941 Japan’s Admiral Yamamoto sent a radio message to the group of Japanese warships that would attack Pearl Harbor on December 7. Newly released naval records prove that from November 17 to 25 the United States Navy intercepted eighty-three messages that Yamamoto sent to his carriers. Part of the November 25 message read: “...the task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow...”
.
One might wonder if the theory that President Franklin Roosevelt had a foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack would have been alluded to in this summer’s movie, Pearl Harbor. Since World War II many people have suspected that Washington knew the attack was coming. When Thomas Dewey was running for president against Roosevelt in 1944 he found out about America’s ability to intercept Japan’s radio messages, and thought this knowledge would enable him to defeat the popular FDR. In the fall of that year, Dewey planned a series of speeches charging FDR with foreknowledge of the attack. Ultimately, General George Marshall, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, persuaded Dewey not to make the speeches. Japan’s naval leaders did not realize America had cracked their codes, and Dewey’s speeches could have sacrificed America’s code-breaking advantage. So, Dewey said nothing, and in November FDR was elected president for the fourth time.
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Now, though, according to Robert Stinnett, author of Simon & Schuster’s Day Of Deceit, we have the proof. Stinnett’s book is dedicated to Congressman John Moss, the author of America’s Freedom of Information Act. According to Stinnett, the answers to the mysteries of Pearl Harbor can be found in the extraordinary number of documents he was able to attain through Freedom of Information Act requests. Cable after cable of decryptions, scores of military messages that America was intercepting, clearly showed that Japanese ships were preparing for war and heading straight for Hawaii. Stinnett, an author, journalist, and World War II veteran, spent sixteen years delving into the National Archives. He poured over more than 200,000 documents, and conducted dozens of interviews. This meticulous research led Stinnet to a firmly held conclusion: FDR knew.
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. . .
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Pearl Harbor--Mother of All Conspiracies| What Really Happened.
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http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl.php
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There's a very telling newspaper front page photo at the link.
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Quote
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. . .
1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.
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7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished.
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11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.
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11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424)
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. . .
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That should give the fair-minded folks seriously interested in the truth some food for thought.
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Offline Quix

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nope

Offline ABX

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The fallacy of hindsight bias.


Offline Quix

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nope

& @AbaraXas

Did you read ANY of the serious evidence in the OP?

e.g.

Quote
Newly released naval records prove that from November 17 to 25 the United States Navy intercepted eighty-three messages that Yamamoto sent to his carriers. Part of the November 25 message read: “...the task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow...”
.
and:
.
Quote
Now, though, according to Robert Stinnett, author of Simon & Schuster’s Day Of Deceit, we have the proof. Stinnett’s book is dedicated to Congressman John Moss, the author of America’s Freedom of Information Act. According to Stinnett, the answers to the mysteries of Pearl Harbor can be found in the extraordinary number of documents he was able to attain through Freedom of Information Act requests. Cable after cable of decryptions, scores of military messages that America was intercepting, clearly showed that Japanese ships were preparing for war and heading straight for Hawaii. Stinnett, an author, journalist, and World War II veteran, spent sixteen years delving into the National Archives. He poured over more than 200,000 documents, and conducted dozens of interviews. This meticulous research led Stinnet to a firmly held conclusion: FDR knew.
.
If you had not read such evidence (that's the tip of a moderate iceberg of evidence, BTW), but did read the above, does it leave you re-evaluating your earlier assertion?

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Nope.

Offline Quix

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Nope.

Same question, Frank,

Did you read ANY of the serious evidence available in and through the OP . . . e.g:

Quote
Newly released naval records prove that from November 17 to 25 the United States Navy intercepted eighty-three messages that Yamamoto sent to his carriers. Part of the November 25 message read: “...the task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow...”
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Offline Quix

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The fallacy of hindsight bias.

I'm curious about what sort of logic you use . . .

to label something {inaccurate} hindsight bias,

when the documentation has proven many times over

that the conclusions reached by the research cited are anything reliable BUT hindsight bias?
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Offline Ghost Bear

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While I think it is possible that the President and/or military command may have been aware of an impending Japanese attack, whether they did know or not ultimately doesn't make any difference. Japan still attacked, and once they did there was no choice but war.

No one forced Japan to launch their attack. Saying they had no choice because of US policies or provocations is facile; there is always a choice in such matters. Japan chose to attack, and whether or not the US military in Pearl Harbor had been better prepared for it, it still would have resulted in war.
Let it burn.

geronl

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99.99999999% of intel is trash.

Very little of it would ever reach the ears or eyes that need it in a time-frame necessary to do something about it. In this case we are talking about a pre-internet, pre-digital situation. It would take time for any intel to move up the chain and for the analysts to decide what it means and for the superiors to hear about it and contact the White House.

They did know the Japanese were up to something. The Japanese were at war in Manchuria and threatening other countries at this point in time. Their fleet was thought to be heading towards Indochina where they were warring with Thailand. And even FDR expects an Japanese attack, his eyes, like those of his commanders, are trained on the Philippines, Wake Island and other far-flung posts.

FDR sent a cable to the emperor on Dec 3 trying to restart talks that had broken down 2 weeks before.

Dec 4, Chicago Tribune prints what is said to be the US plans for joining the war in Europe.

The US did not know the Japanese had trained their pilots to attack shallow bays or had developed torpedoes that worked in shallow waters. The Japanese were very new at refueling ships at sea and their fleets had never made any cross-Pacific voyages. This is how good their intel was at the time. The idea that they would be able to coordinate or cooperate to allow an attack is not even remotely possible.

Our CIA analysts were staying at work, Stimson stayed at work over the weekend.

Dec 6

Adm Kimmel decides to leave the ships there will seem sensible until about 8 a.m. tomorrow. Kimmel still thinks Pearl Harbor a far-fetched target. He does not think Japanese carriers can master such a long range and believes the harbor is too shallow for submarines. Putting his ships to sea might make them more vulnerable. It also would sharply deplete his precious fuel.

Offline Quix

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Thanks. At least some reasoning for your perspective.

1. Are you trying to say that GIVEN all the givens THAT particular piece of code broken intel was most logically part of the 99.999% faulty?

2. Or that our government was so utterly inept that there was absolutely NO way to get a FLASH traffic to the highest ranks within minutes to an hour or so? As a Navy Radioman, I find that bit of info a bit too preposterous to swallow.

3. IIRC, I once read that Adm Kimmel was ORDERED to leave the ships in the harbors--by the White House or Joint Chief's, I forget--I think it was the White House.

4. I think you are doing back flips to excuse a documented very complicit government in the unnecessary murder of 100's of sailors and civilians.


99.99999999% of intel is trash.

Very little of it would ever reach the ears or eyes that need it in a time-frame necessary to do something about it. In this case we are talking about a pre-internet, pre-digital situation. It would take time for any intel to move up the chain and for the analysts to decide what it means and for the superiors to hear about it and contact the White House.

They did know the Japanese were up to something. The Japanese were at war in Manchuria and threatening other countries at this point in time. Their fleet was thought to be heading towards Indochina where they were warring with Thailand. And even FDR expects an Japanese attack, his eyes, like those of his commanders, are trained on the Philippines, Wake Island and other far-flung posts.

FDR sent a cable to the emperor on Dec 3 trying to restart talks that had broken down 2 weeks before.

Dec 4, Chicago Tribune prints what is said to be the US plans for joining the war in Europe.

The US did not know the Japanese had trained their pilots to attack shallow bays or had developed torpedoes that worked in shallow waters. The Japanese were very new at refueling ships at sea and their fleets had never made any cross-Pacific voyages. This is how good their intel was at the time. The idea that they would be able to coordinate or cooperate to allow an attack is not even remotely possible.

Our CIA analysts were staying at work, Stimson stayed at work over the weekend.

Dec 6

Adm Kimmel decides to leave the ships there will seem sensible until about 8 a.m. tomorrow. Kimmel still thinks Pearl Harbor a far-fetched target. He does not think Japanese carriers can master such a long range and believes the harbor is too shallow for submarines. Putting his ships to sea might make them more vulnerable. It also would sharply deplete his precious fuel.
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Offline Quix

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I didn't have to Quix. I am over the age of ten and I have seen all these conspiracy theories. The only way you can believe them is if you are a dead ender looking for a half baked bunch of bullshit that is poorly sourced.

How you can call either of the main sources I cited in the OP as 'half-baked bunch of BS that is poorly sourced' seems to mangle the dictionary totally out of rational whack.

"Seeing" them is a far cry from seriously investigating them in a quality way. But nice try.

BTW, our history includes a number of similar stunts planned and some implemented  by our fearless traitorous leaders. But I guess your 10 year old brilliance didn't come across those.

One of those involved McCain's Dad as CINCPAC shooting it down before it was implemented. My boss in Taipei was his Chief Radioman at the time. I suppose you'd call him 'half-baked and a bunch of BS.' I found him rather intensely the opposite of your description.

Which part of this description of the 200,000 or more documents convinces you that they were "poorly sourced," a 'half-baked bunch of BS?'

Quote
According to Stinnett, the answers to the mysteries of Pearl Harbor can be found in the extraordinary number of documents he was able to attain through Freedom of Information Act requests. Cable after cable of decryptions, scores of military messages that America was intercepting, clearly showed that Japanese ships were preparing for war and heading straight for Hawaii. Stinnett, an author, journalist, and World War II veteran, spent sixteen years delving into the National Archives. He poured over more than 200,000 documents, and conducted dozens of interviews. This meticulous research led Stinnet to a firmly held conclusion: FDR knew.

However, I think I understand better the 'intellectual' sphere you inhabit.

Somehow, 'decryptions' and 'meticulous' must = BS, in your sphere.

Avoiding Truth
There is a principle
Which is a bar against all information,
Which is proof against all argument,
And which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance.

That principle is condemnation before investigation

--Edmund Spencer


However, I do appreciate the honor of your insults. I'm thinking of notching my screen.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 05:47:47 am by Quix »
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Which part of this description of the 200,000 or more documents convinces you that they were "poorly sourced," a 'half-baked bunch of BS?'


I just did a quick web search for "Quix sex tapes" and got 814,000 hits.  Shirley, none of them were "poorly sourced," or a 'half-baked bunch of BS" because they are on the interwebs.  QED.

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer,

{Quix note:  I'll give you a short while to  clean  up this post to the new level of civility, mutual respect and decorum expected on this forum. Otherwise, I'll delete it.}
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 07:48:55 pm by Quix »
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Offline Quix

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Interestingly another thing that had 814K hits today his Quix's bong.

Your charitable cuteness is showing again.
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Offline guitar4jesus

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[mod snip]

Is this it?

{Quix note: There was no excuse for this extremely harshly demeaning, insulting, assaultive, post and gif. Further such will be deleted on sight.}
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:08:32 pm by Quix »

Online bigheadfred

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Interestingly . . . [mod snip]
@Quix

This from the guy that drinks scotch like it is water.

Do I believe the U.S government would intentionally do something inimical to the American public every chance they get?

Absolutely.

On the other hand, just think of all the lives saved by FDR being able to force America into WWII. Americans need to be convinced before they sign on or jump in to anything major. Then the lemming tide is unstoppable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:11:02 pm by Quix »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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I believe the sanctions in place were to bring political (economic) pressure on the Japanese. That pressure always carries a risk of warfare. I also believe that the imperfect translation of Japanese codes would lead someone to know something was up, but not necessarily where. (Recall, Midway Island had to fake water supply problems to be identified in the Japanese coded traffic in order to intercept Japanese forces there.)
I have little doubt that the diplomatic and trade pressure created a situation where war was a risk, but from New Guinea to the Philippines and east to Hawaii, Americans had naval outposts. The Japanese wave of conquest was moving South toward Australia. 

Between normalcy bias on the part of command staff and politicians, and the fairly new concept of attacking someone's fleet half an ocean away with serious effect, to look back on what seems obvious now and say ''they should have know", or, "they had to know" is likely inaccurate.
Maybe in our 20/20 hindsight, walking through the maze backwards sees nothing but what seem to be obvious conclusions, but walking through the maze of history in the direction it happened exposes the myriad logical blind alleys which greeted all but the most prescient and insightful. It is easy to go from a leaf on a tree backwards to find the base of the trunk, not so easy to start at the base and find a specific leaf.
At each junction, not only must the analyst find the correct choice, they must have information which supports that conclusion. They must be capable of presenting that conclusion and the correct data to those higher in the tree, and convincing that person or committee that their analysis is correct.
That goes through multiple steps in the food chain before it gets to the top. At any juncture, the normalcy bias of those in command can scuttle the conclusion and any theory it leads to.

Consider, given what you KNOW about the Dec. 7 attack, if you were there, on November 23, given two weeks to convince the right people in command that there was an attack coming, and given some title or status enough to be able to be even slightly credible and not just some streetcorner guy in a robe with a sandwich board, would you be able to convince either the military, politicians, or both of the impending attack, time, and place?

Would you even get the opportunity to convince the people in Command?

Now, question number two. If you had the wherewithal to know every action to be taken through intelligence intercepts, broken codes, spies on the inside, or even a combination of those, knowing that you would not be looking at a definitive outcome at this point for either side, would you compromise your intel network/code-breaking advantage/HUMINT sources by acting on that intel in a way which would make it a likely conclusion on the part of your enemies that you had those resources, or would you save your high value trump card for later, when the advantage may be more decisive?

Recall, too, Coventry. The British had an enigma machine, they had the books, and knew Coventry was going to be attacked (bombed). Warning the population of that city would let the Germans know that we were reading their mail, and have caused them to change their codes. Codes which were believed to be secure by the Germans, which enabled more vital interceptions later on. Do you show your hand and let them change their codes and place your self at a disadvantage later?
You take the strategic view and make the hard choice.

Coventry was bombed by the Germans. The sacrifice of the civilians there was presented as a moral outrage on the part of the enemy, and became one more rallying point for the British population in their resolve to defeat the Nazis.

We may or may not have had such intel prior to Pearl Harbor, at least in the right hands. I note our carriers were absent from the harbor during the attack. Of the battleships sunk, the newest, the West Virginia, was 20 years old, and though she survived to fight another day after being re-floated and extensively refit in time for the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. The upgrades from that refit gave her a significant radar and fire control advantage, even over the other vessels in the US contingent, advantages which helped the US Navy to prevail in that battle.
Prior to Pearl Harbor, tensions between the US and Japan were high, and the very real possibility of war was only likely to be averted if the Japanese met with demands they were unlikely to meet. The Japanese had been on their West Pacific blitzkreig longer than the Germans had been in Europe. Given that, however, the anticipated point of conflict was more likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of Wake, Guam, or the Philippines, and not so deep into the envelope of control. Concerns were more with reinforcing air assets at those far-flung bases than defending Pearl Harbor, which partly explains why the Carriers were not in the harbor on 12/7.

It was known that the Harbor was being spied upon by the enemy, just as the English knew there were spies who would relay that Coventry had been warned, had that been the case.
Quote
The need for the undetected absence of the carriers is even clearer when we consider that Toshikawa Hideo was making regular reports to Japan regarding the ships in port, and dates of sailings and returns.  He made a "ships in port" report on the 6th, indicating no carriers in the harbor.  This message was in the PA-K2 code and translated on Dec. 8th by the Army.  We could speculate that, given the knowledge that Pearl Harbor was being watched, we could have "baited the trap" with the carriers, and actually hustled them out late on the 6th, rather than risking the enemy's calling the whole thing off because the carriers were gone.  This presupposes that someone would have known about the attack in the first place.
Interesting discussion of the absent carriers here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/Missing_Carriers.html

So, it wasn't as if the US was skipping down the primrose path to be caught completely unawares, commanders were aware of impending war, and the Japanese were a foe to be anticipated. Again, though sending clear signals to the enemy that you are informed of their orders or actions is a loss of strategic advantage early on, when the battle at hand will not be the end of conflict, but the beginning.

So if the attack was in fact even known about in advance, what would have been done about it? How much could be done without the Japanese suspecting we had broken their codes?

Both events, Coventry's Bombing, Pearl Harbor, were presented to their respective populations as dastardly deeds of demonic and diabolical enemies, enemies to be fought with every fiber of our being. They became rallying points to energize respective populaces. There may have been foreknowledge in both instances, and there definitely was in the instance of Coventry, but the ugly strategic question of whether that knowledge would have been acted upon in any obvious and meaningful way remains.

The events were stages in the development of the war. There was plenty enough evil in the world in those days without it all sitting down together and planning out the conflicts that developed, even though all that evil ultimately comes from the same source. 

We can look back, knowing what we know now, and second guess, but it is only in the movies that some relatively obscure person who absolutely knows what adverse event is coming who can warn all the 'right' people in time to avoid it.

Today, even with the internet and social media, it would be difficult to bring something to the serious attention of those in a position to make decisions affecting the outcome, and who in those positions would have the courage to act on such in the face of possibly being wrong?
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cripplecreek

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[mod snip]

Conspiracy theories seem to be designed to lower the IQ of America's collective intelligence. More often than not the source of conspiracy theories are actively trying to harm or distract us.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,236833.msg1160350.html#msg1160350


Actually, it can be documented that since 1915 and 1917--when the oligarchy bought out the major news organizations/newspapers (a major conspiracy in itself), there has been massively increased and increasingly refined control of the public media toward mass manipulation of the populace.

The oligarchy wrote multiple times publicly the last 150 years that they WOULD DO exactly that. Then they proceeded TO DO exactly that. There's no  theory to the conspiracies. They are extremely well documented fact.

Failure to be informed about that;  to understand that and to begin to prepare one's self and one's family to deal with that--THAT is the very low IQ behavior which wholesale ignores well documented reality with growing piles of evidence in plain sight all over everywhere.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:05:56 pm by Quix »

Offline guitar4jesus

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Conspiracy theories seem to be designed to lower the IQ of America's collective intelligence. More often than not the source of conspiracy theories are actively trying to harm or distract us.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,236833.msg1160350.html#msg1160350

Yep.

Offline Rivergirl

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I know for  a fact that Japan was tweeting their intentions and somehow FDR didn't take the tweets seriously.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Yep.

Our enemies have always tried to spread misinformation and we do the same with our enemies.

Even in the days of our nation's founders they did it. Nelly Custis Washington wrote about the bitter loyalists and British who tried to diminish her (step) grandfather's reputation. They spread rumors that George Washington and other founders weren't Christian or that Washington was a greedy land baron who drove people off land that was rightfully theirs.

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 R U Aware/Do U Believe Pearl Harbor Was Deliberately Set-up & Allowed to Happen.

Nope.

Cuz if it where fact then Oliver Stone would have made a movie about it. 

Offline ABX

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Imagine for a moment having one of those giant, 2,000 piece jigsaw puzzles and you dump the box of pieces all over the floor.  Then, for fun, you dump a couple more puzzles on top of it. You then throw away all of the boxes. You have pieces everywhere, some upside down, nothing in order, some pieces fell under the cough.

Then you bring someone in to look at all the pieces and ask them what the final picture will be. Could they tell you?  Not initially, not after a long time of working through the pieces. And even then, they may end up putting one of the extra puzzles you dumped together instead of the one you wanted them to solve.

But, if you show that person the finished puzzle's image, they'll of course immediately look back on all the individual little pieces they saw and say 'I knew it all along, it was a covered bridge, how could you miss all the pieces?'

That's how hindsight bias with conspiracy theories look. When an event happens, it is made up of countless little pieces mixed up in all of the pieces of life. All of those pieces are a big jumble and don't really make much sense, especially if you don't know what you are looking for.

After the fact, however, it is easy to look at all the pieces that 'should' have been put together and point the finger.  That's hindsight bias.

Offline Frank Cannon

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I know for  a fact that Japan was tweeting their intentions and somehow FDR didn't take the tweets seriously.

https://twitter.com/PresFDR?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Silver Pines

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No.