Hillary Clinton blew the most winnable election in modern American history.

[the_doc]

Trump won 306 EV's.  I don't consider that "barely".

It doesn't matter what you think he "almost" did @the_doc .  What matters is what Trump  actually accomplished--against a rabid, hostile media, against rabid, hostile NT's in his own party, against the hundreds of millions of dollars poured into Hillary Clinton's campaign by globalist special interest groups, Trump pulled off a stunning victory --- a victory heard and being echoed around the globe.

Trump did it all without the media, without the NT's, without special interest money and by shattering Clinton's blue wall---the same wall the pundits and haters laughed at him for trying to break through.

Pretty damn impressive.   ^-^

Trump won most of those impressive (?) electoral votes by squeaker margins and lost the popular vote nationwide.  Shattering Clinton's blue wall is a pretty grandiose way of describing the victory.  Trump won only because HRC was an even more awful candidate than Dishonest Donald.  Comey and Assange dragged him through the chinks in the blue wall at the very last minute.  Pardon me for remaining unimpressed with Trump.

[Lando Lincoln]

I do too.   ^-^

We agree!  I will allow the objectivity that he may convince me.  There is a flip to that but I can only control what I think. 

[dfwgator]

The first three words would have sufficed.

[LateForLunch]

Trump won most of those impressive (?) electoral votes by squeaker margins and lost the popular vote nationwide.  Shattering Clinton's blue wall is a pretty grandiose way of describing the victory.  Trump won only because HRC was an even more awful candidate than Dishonest Donald.  Comey and Assange dragged him through the chinks in the blue wall at the very last minute.  Pardon me for remaining unimpressed with Trump.

The actual popular vote will never be known, because to save costs some states order an end to counting votes as soon as the margin of advantage for any candidate exceeds the remaining uncounted votes. So in any state where Trump won by a sufficiently large margin to allow the state to stop counting votes while a significant percentage still remained, the real popular vote total would not be known. That means many thousands (millions) of votes for Trump may still be uncounted.

Add to that the fact that the Electoral college has a foundation in a very sophisticated principle of governance specifically chosen by the Founders, which supersedes the popular vote in value to the union in all regards. The Founder may have been among the smartest people of all time, not just their own time.

Larry Arn president of Hillsdale College (on the short list for department of Education head) explained this recently on a radio show and he makes a compelling case for the wisdom of the Founders in that regard. The Electoral College actually preserves the SPIRIT of representative governance far better than a simple popular vote - because without rules to maintain integrity of the INTENT of the presidential election (to represent ALL of the people not just urban population centers or states with overwhelmingly large populations) pure democracy is nothing more than a synonym for mob rule.

[the_doc]

@LateForLunch

I agree.  My point was that all of the bragging by the Trumpsters is unwarranted (and sophomoric).   

 

[HonestJohn]

They were both delightful people, with whom I agreed on many subjects (some of which are diametrically opposed to what Trump believes).

Like the people on TOS, they completely changed when Trump became their god, and now it seems their only purpose here is to mock and deride.  (When is the last time you've seen a thoughtful, positive post from ANY of the Trump lovers here??)

Some people think that this nastiness was always under the surface, but I'm not sure.  I think Trump love really changes people for the worse (not voting for Trump, but being a mindless groupie).

It really is sad to see.

A person's personality is generally set by the age of 3-4 years old.  It can change after that point, but only in response to a severe shock (death of a parent, natural disaster, war, etc).

If a person's behavior suddenly changes, absent that sort of shock, it's more likely that what you are seeing is their natural personality... and that the polite mask we all wear in society finally dropped.

---

As an aside, in many Asian cultures, businesspeople will not conclude a deal without first going out and drinking first.  They want to see how the other side will behave once the 'mask' is dropped.  And if the true face of a person is repugnant, they will not seal the deal.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Trump won most of those impressive (?) electoral votes by squeaker margins

Who cares?  Trump did what everyone said he couldn't .... he won.

I see no need for further debate about this.   

[LateForLunch]

Who cares?  Trump did what everyone said he couldn't .... he won.

I see no need for further debate about this.   

hah hah 'Cant argue with that, Righty!

Just as an aside to a previous post about personalities - accumulation of neuron density is not normally concluded until roughly the age of six (or a little sooner in some genetic variants). Intellectual capacity has some significant bearing on personality formation. Also most children do not even develop a workable, consistent sense of the difference between reality/fantasy until about the age of ten. Added to that is environmental reinforcement (positive nurturing, normal stresses/strains of social interaction and any traumatic events). The generally-acknowledged age when most people's personalities are fairly well set (in a fundamentally reactive sense) is in the 20s.

I have two clinical psychologists in my family and my mother had a masters degree in early childhood education (and she did a thesis on Piaget, who was an expert in early childhood development), so those are not just my opinions. I have paid attention when those people have spoken about children and the mind and read extensively on the topic on my own out of curiosity. 

[musiclady]

A person's personality is generally set by the age of 3-4 years old.  It can change after that point, but only in response to a severe shock (death of a parent, natural disaster, war, etc).

If a person's behavior suddenly changes, absent that sort of shock, it's more likely that what you are seeing is their natural personality... and that the polite mask we all wear in society finally dropped.

---

As an aside, in many Asian cultures, businesspeople will not conclude a deal without first going out and drinking first.  They want to see how the other side will behave once the 'mask' is dropped.  And if the true face of a person is repugnant, they will not seal the deal.

Well, some of these people were very good at masking their true natures.  I know it's easy on the internet to pretend to be what you aren't, but why pretend to be a decent person when you're not?  What could these people possibly gain by being the pretenders they clearly have been for years?

Why pretend to be conservative?  Why pretend to have moral values?  Why pretend to believe in ethics?

And then throw them all aside and tear the mask off just because a jerk like Donald Trump becomes your hero?

I'll never understand what happened to these people?  Why didn't they just say, "I'm a jerk and I've always been a jerk, so deal with it?"

I guess I'm too honest to try to fool people for years into thinking I am what I'm not.

The person I've been on political forums for 15 years is exactly who I am.   I can't imagine the pressure these pretenders have been under all these years acting like they're decent human beings.

Frankly I'm surprised they didn't crack before Trump.

[Oceander]

Who cares?  Trump did what everyone said he couldn't .... he won.

I see no need for further debate about this.   

Depends on what you mean by won.  Did he get the electoral college?  Apparently.  Did he get the greatest amount of support from the American people?  No.

You have a technical winner with no popular mandate.  If you keep running around like pompous overstuffed sausages you'll suffer the consequences sooner and not later.  There is more support in the American people for the GOPers in Congress you all hate than there is for Trump. 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Why pretend to be conservative?  Why pretend to have moral values?  Why pretend to believe in ethics? 

Sounds like you're in need of a refresher course:

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

[alicewonders]

Quote from: musiclady on Today at 08:03:58 PM
Why pretend to be conservative?  Why pretend to have moral values?  Why pretend to believe in ethics?

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on Today at 08:12:47 PM
Sounds like you're in need of a refresher course:

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye

This person that you quoted above is someone that I have thought of as my friend.  She has often impugned the morality and faith of Trump supporters.  In this same thread - talking about me and another Trump supporter - she said:

...

Like the people on TOS, they completely changed when Trump became their god, and now it seems their only purpose here is to mock and deride.  (When is the last time you've seen a thoughtful, positive post from ANY of the Trump lovers here??)

...

When Trump became "my god".........

How do you respond to a statement like that?  A completely unfounded accusation that has not one iota of a connection to reality.  I would be very interested to see this person go back through all of the posts I've ever made since I've been a member here, or at Free Republic, and show the world when Trump became "my god". 

Or any other Trump supporter here. 

This person used to claim that her insults weren't necessarily directed at anyone here - just some of Trump's supporters.  However, this comment above was directed toward me and another poster here.

The arrogance is breathtaking!

[LateForLunch]

This person that you quoted above is someone that I have thought of as my friend.  She has often impugned the morality and faith of Trump supporters.  In this same thread - talking about me and another Trump supporter - she said:


When Trump became "my god".........

How do you respond to a statement like that?  A completely unfounded accusation that has not one iota of a connection to reality.  I would be very interested to see this person go back through all of the posts I've ever made since I've been a member here, or at Free Republic, and show the world when Trump became "my god". 

Or any other Trump supporter here. 

This person used to claim that her insults weren't necessarily directed at anyone here - just some of Trump's supporters.  However, this comment above was directed toward me and another poster here.

The arrogance is breathtaking!

For many, political discussions are not about topical, substantive issues. They are about feelings and intuitions.

From their POV they are being completely rational and reasonable because launching and engaging in these excursions somehow ameliorates their feelings of anxiety and humiliation. It makes them feel better to do it, so from their POV it is morally correct (being feeling-centered).

The universal, ubiquitous factors involved in these venomous, vehement posts are vituperations (the fixing of cause or blame for bad things onto others) and externalizing their own responsibility for their aggressive verbal behavior (redirecting any responsibility for hateful, hurtful, harsh, unfair statements onto the behavior of others).

Most of this behavior is motivated by unconscious motives and underlying feelings of anxiety and shame, and that is why I do not blame these people nor consider them to be bad people.

I do hope, however that the behavior is transitory and that in time, some of the hard feelings will be changed with new information and the pattern of denial/ offensiveness will be broken.
In short, they display all of the insensitivity, refusal to take responsibility for contradictory behavior and cruelty that they attribute to the object of their vituperations and accusations.

[musiclady]

LOL! If I had a nickel for every time a Trump lover called me "sanctimonious," "judgmental," "arrogant," or the like, I'd be the richest woman on earth.  (The irony is that they don't get that their name-calling is rooted in their own arrogance).

Calling others names just a weak excuse for dealing with the fact that Trump is in a lousy person whom they love, and not dealing with the reality of who he is based on absolute standards.  (And the liberal misuse of the Scripture "Judge not" would be comical if it weren't a dangerous misuse of Scripture).

The fact of the matter is that a handful of people here DID change, and for the worse.  They lost values they once seemed to have.  They once agreed on the sanctity of life, they once agreed on the importance of character, they once acted as if they were conservative, they once treated others well, and now they don't.  ALL because of Donald Trump.

Fortunately, there are just a handful here, and my IGNORE list is short, though not sweet...

All I know is that I am exactly the same person I have always been, and I will never let any politician change my values, nor anything about me.  If my loyalty to a human being (even a good one, and not a vile and degenerate creep like Donald Trump) makes me act like a different person, then I will give up the internet altogether.  And if any politician makes me lose my conservatism, self-respect, moral values, or even makes me defend someone who sticks out his middle finger at morality and decency as Trump has done his entire life, I will do some serious soul-searching.

But I won't let that happen, and clearly, neither will most of the others who post on this fine forum.

[musiclady]

This person that you quoted above is someone that I have thought of as my friend.  She has often impugned the morality and faith of Trump supporters.  In this same thread - talking about me and another Trump supporter - she said:


When Trump became "my god".........

How do you respond to a statement like that?  A completely unfounded accusation that has not one iota of a connection to reality.  I would be very interested to see this person go back through all of the posts I've ever made since I've been a member here, or at Free Republic, and show the world when Trump became "my god". 

Or any other Trump supporter here. 

This person used to claim that her insults weren't necessarily directed at anyone here - just some of Trump's supporters.  However, this comment above was directed toward me and another poster here.

The arrogance is breathtaking!

I don't even know if Trump is your "god" alice.  I haven't read a thing you've written in months, because you went away and hid rather than discussing things on the open forum.

Many months ago, you did take every criticism of any Trump supporter, or Trump himself personally, and lashed out against anything anyone said against him or any aspect of any of his supporters.  But then you disappeared.

I haven't directed a single comment to you since you started whining that I was saying bad things to you that I wasn't saying.  I don't know if Trump changed you, because I haven't read a thing you posted in your private forum here.

So you don't need to bother yourself with defending against things I say.  I know that because of your loyalty to Trump, I lost what I thought was a friendship with you, but that was entirely your choice.   When I said that Trump's rhetoric attracted racists, you whined that I was calling you a racist.  When I said that Trump was amoral (he is), you whined that we weren't electing a preacher.

That was during the primary, and I haven't thought a thing about you since then because you disappeared.  So if you think I'm aiming my posts about Trump lackeys at you, then you are mistaken.  You have buddies here who stuck their heads out occasionally to mock and deride non-Trump lovers, and then went back into your Trump hidey hole where people who disagreed weren't allowed to post. 

You didn't come out and throw grenades (at least not that I saw) and I actually respected you for that.

Other than that, you can stop worrying that anything I say has anything to do with you.  It doesn't.

Just put me on Ignore and forget I exist. 

You'll live a longer, happier life if you don't let your feelings get hurt by things that aren't in the least about you.

I will, however, continue criticizing Trump, because he is exactly who I said he was a year ago.

A debauched liberal narcissist......

[LateForLunch]

I don't even know if Trump is your "god" alice.  I haven't read a thing you've written in months, because you went away and hid rather than discussing things on the open forum.

Many months ago, you did take every criticism of any Trump supporter, or Trump himself personally, and lashed out against anything anyone said against him or any aspect of any of his supporters.  But then you disappeared.

I haven't directed a single comment to you since you started whining that I was saying bad things to you that I wasn't saying.  I don't know if Trump changed you, because I haven't read a thing you posted in your private forum here.

So you don't need to bother yourself with defending against things I say.  I know that because of your loyalty to Trump, I lost what I thought was a friendship with you, but that was entirely your choice.   When I said that Trump's rhetoric attracted racists, you whined that I was calling you a racist.  When I said that Trump was amoral (he is), you whined that we weren't electing a preacher.

That was during the primary, and I haven't thought a thing about you since then because you disappeared.  So if you think I'm aiming my posts about Trump lackeys at you, then you are mistaken.  You have buddies here who stuck their heads out occasionally to mock and deride non-Trump lovers, and then went back into your Trump hidey hole where people who disagreed weren't allowed to post. 

You didn't come out and throw grenades (at least not that I saw) and I actually respected you for that.

Other than that, you can stop worrying that anything I say has anything to do with you.  It doesn't.

Just put me on Ignore and forget I exist. 

You'll live a longer, happier life if you don't let your feelings get hurt by things that aren't in the least about you.

I will, however, continue criticizing Trump, because he is exactly who I said he was a year ago.

A debauched liberal narcissist......

See this is a perfect example of what rankles Trump supporters. People with (forgive me) big mouths make horribly harsh statements and lump all Trump supporters (even reluctant ones like most conservatives) into categories then deny that they insulted anyone when they have actually insulted EVERYONE (who disagrees with them about Trump).

I mean, what the above poster has done is to essentially say that it is her opinion that effectively all Trump supporters are loathsome, stupid, grossly-irresponsible lowlifes, then in the same breath denies that she has insulted anyone. 

"You cannot be for Me and against Me." - Some Immortal Guy (describing the impossibility of both being for morality and against it in some sort of weird "quantum state").

I doubt the principle in my post will respond directly because she stated awhile back (when I had the insane gall to suggest that she was not behaving like a lady at all) that she was putting me on ignore. That may insulate her personally from reading what I believe to be the truth about her and others similar to her, but it does not prevent me from presenting my opinion for others to consider.

I would have bygones be bygones and proceed into the future as friends with everyone on this forum and/or who self-identify as a conservative. But that desire is tempered by the reality that it takes two to make peace and only one to make war.

[Night Hides Not]

See this is a perfect example of what rankles Trump supporters. People with (forgive me) big mouths make horribly harsh statements and lump all Trump supporters (even reluctant ones like most conservatives) into categories then deny that they insulted anyone when they have actually insulted EVERYONE (who disagrees with them about Trump).

I mean, what the above poster has done is to essentially say that it is her opinion that effectively all Trump supporters are loathsome, stupid, grossly-irresponsible lowlifes, then in the same breath denies that she has insulted anyone. 

"You cannot be for Me and against Me." - Some Immortal Guy (describing the impossibility of both being for morality and against it in some sort of weird "quantum state").

I doubt the principle in my post will respond directly because she stated awhile back (when I had the insane gall to suggest that she was not behaving like a lady at all) that she was putting me on ignore. That may insulate her personally from reading what I believe to be the truth about her and others similar to her, but it does not prevent me from presenting my opinion for others to consider.

I would have bygones be bygones and proceed into the future as friends with everyone on this forum and/or who self-identify as a conservative. But that desire is tempered by the reality that it takes two to make peace and only one to make war.

You can make a case for Mutually Assured Destruction on both sides. I'm a NeverTrumper who hopes he succeeds, but it won't stop me from speaking out when I disagree with him.

Similarly, if the brow-beating continues from spiking the football Trump supporters, you basically tell me that discussion is not possible with you.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

So NT's should just sit back and keep their (not me, I voted Trump) mouths shut if they see him harming the country? Is that your argument?

[alicewonders]

I don't even know if Trump is your "god" alice.  I haven't read a thing you've written in months, because you went away and hid rather than discussing things on the open forum.

Many months ago, you did take every criticism of any Trump supporter, or Trump himself personally, and lashed out against anything anyone said against him or any aspect of any of his supporters.  But then you disappeared.

I haven't directed a single comment to you since you started whining that I was saying bad things to you that I wasn't saying.  I don't know if Trump changed you, because I haven't read a thing you posted in your private forum here.

So you don't need to bother yourself with defending against things I say.  I know that because of your loyalty to Trump, I lost what I thought was a friendship with you, but that was entirely your choice.   When I said that Trump's rhetoric attracted racists, you whined that I was calling you a racist.  When I said that Trump was amoral (he is), you whined that we weren't electing a preacher.

That was during the primary, and I haven't thought a thing about you since then because you disappeared.  So if you think I'm aiming my posts about Trump lackeys at you, then you are mistaken.  You have buddies here who stuck their heads out occasionally to mock and deride non-Trump lovers, and then went back into your Trump hidey hole where people who disagreed weren't allowed to post. 

You didn't come out and throw grenades (at least not that I saw) and I actually respected you for that.

Other than that, you can stop worrying that anything I say has anything to do with you.  It doesn't.

Just put me on Ignore and forget I exist. 

You'll live a longer, happier life if you don't let your feelings get hurt by things that aren't in the least about you.

I will, however, continue criticizing Trump, because he is exactly who I said he was a year ago.

A debauched liberal narcissist......

Not wanting to fight with you or anyone else here musiclady, but I have bolded some of your remarks above.  The ones where you deny targeting me with your inappropriate insults about Trump supporters making Trump "their god".  Anyone can read them for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions as to whether you were referring to me or not.  I will repost your earlier quote in full: 

They were both delightful people, with whom I agreed on many subjects (some of which are diametrically opposed to what Trump believes).

Like the people on TOS, they completely changed when Trump became their god, and now it seems their only purpose here is to mock and deride.  (When is the last time you've seen a thoughtful, positive post from ANY of the Trump lovers here??)

Some people think that this nastiness was always under the surface, but I'm not sure.  I think Trump love really changes people for the worse (not voting for Trump, but being a mindless groupie).

It really is sad to see.

As anyone can see - your remarks here on this thread absolutely are referring to me and @flowers , a person would have to be willfully blind not to see that.  And yet, in your last post here - you are attempting to deny that.  ???

Lastly, I am NOT in hiding.  I don't post here very often anymore because this is largely an anti-Trump site and I am very much pro-Trump.  This is not a very enjoyable site for me anymore - it used to be my internet home, a place I posted in every day and where I made many friends and enjoyed a nice camaraderie.  Now....not so much.  I'm not into being insulted if I can avoid it.

And don't worry about me - dear person who was once a friend of mine, but decided to abandon our friendship because of my political support for someone you don't like - I'm living the life I choose, a happy, content and peaceful life!  I have so much thankfulness in my heart because I know that America will not be controlled by evil social engineers much longer.  I won't waste my days defending my beliefs to people that claim to know what is in my heart and who I worship.  Life is too short to spend time doing such things. 

Not in hiding in the least!  Enjoying days of serenity and astonishment at the glory of God - and that's God with a capital "G".  Deny it if you want, it's all here in black and white for everyone to see and draw their own conclusions.

Last point, you said, "If I had a nickel for every time a Trump lover called me "sanctimonious," "judgmental," "arrogant," or the like, I'd be the richest woman on earth." - have you ever stopped to wonder why that is so?  Why so many people have said those things about you?  Maybe the next time you are on your knees, humbling yourself before God (the same God I worship), you might honestly and sincerely ask why people keep saying these things to you.  I hope you ask this with a sincere heart - I know that if you do, you will come to a moment of self-enlightenment.

None of us are perfect by any means - believe me, I've had to have that same conversation with God, hopefully we all have.  It is how we grow as Christians. 

Shalom.

[Night Hides Not]

So NT's should just sit back and keep their (not me, I voted Trump) mouths shut if they see him harming the country? Is that your argument?

May I presume that remark was not directed at me?  lol

I would expect that would be the response of the typical Trump supporter, because in their minds, everything Trump does is all about Making America Great Again, so how can he be wrong?

[Night Hides Not]

Not wanting to fight with you or anyone else here musiclady, but I have bolded some of your remarks above.  The ones where you deny targeting me with your inappropriate insults about Trump supporters making Trump "their god".  Anyone can read them for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions as to whether you were referring to me or not.  I will repost your earlier quote in full: 

As anyone can see - your remarks here on this thread absolutely are referring to me and @flowers , a person would have to be willfully blind not to see that.  And yet, in your last post here - you are attempting to deny that.  ???

Lastly, I am NOT in hiding.  I don't post here very often anymore because this is largely an anti-Trump site and I am very much pro-Trump.  This is not a very enjoyable site for me anymore - it used to be my internet home, a place I posted in every day and where I made many friends and enjoyed a nice camaraderie.  Now....not so much.  I'm not into being insulted if I can avoid it.

And don't worry about me - dear person who was once a friend of mine, but decided to abandon our friendship because of my political support for someone you don't like - I'm living the life I choose, a happy, content and peaceful life!  I have so much thankfulness in my heart because I know that America will not be controlled by evil social engineers much longer.  I won't waste my days defending my beliefs to people that claim to know what is in my heart and who I worship.  Life is too short to spend time doing such things. 

Not in hiding in the least!  Enjoying days of serenity and astonishment at the glory of God - and that's God with a capital "G".  Deny it if you want, it's all here in black and white for everyone to see and draw their own conclusions.

Last point, you said, "If I had a nickel for every time a Trump lover called me "sanctimonious," "judgmental," "arrogant," or the like, I'd be the richest woman on earth." - have you ever stopped to wonder why that is so?  Why so many people have said those things about you?  Maybe the next time you are on your knees, humbling yourself before God (the same God I worship), you might honestly and sincerely ask why people keep saying these things to you.  I hope you ask this with a sincere heart - I know that if you do, you will come to a moment of self-enlightenment.

None of us are perfect by any means - believe me, I've had to have that same conversation with God, hopefully we all have.  It is how we grow as Christians. 

Shalom.

We get it...your guy won.

Damn, this is tiresome.

If you want to leave TBR, then leave. Don't just threaten to do it. I learned long ago that I'll hardly be missed, that life will go on without me. This is an excellent site, and Trump supporters have their own section to dwell in.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

May I presume that remark was not directed at me?  lol

I would expect that would be the response of the typical Trump supporter, because in their minds, everything Trump does is all about Making America Great Again, so how can he be wrong?

No, at the other guy arguing. Trump needs to be called out when his behavior hurts the country.


Why is that so controversial?

[Night Hides Not]

No, at the other guy arguing. Trump needs to be called out when his behavior hurts the country.


Why is that so controversial?

We're in a new paradigm.   

[alicewonders]

Once again - I will say what we have been saying ALL ALONG - criticize Donald Trump to your heart's content, he is fair game.

However, if you present something as a FACT, when it is only your OPINION - a Trump supporter may come behind you to correct the misconception you have pushed.  If you post an article from a "fake news" site - you might be corrected on that.  If you say something negative, a Trump supporter might come along and say something positive about him. 

That is the nature of a political forum, it's called a discussion, and it's healthy freedom of speech.....it's America.

AGAIN - it's not the criticism of Trump that we can't abide - it's the insults against us.  I know - you want to say something like "tough luck, I'll say what I want" - fine, but don't accuse us of not being able to handle criticism of "our god Trump" - when it is the insults to our intelligence, faith, morality, ethics, etc - that galls us.  And, it would gall you too, if we would respond in kind. 

You want an intelligent discussion?  Start with honesty and respect - and if I may say so - stop with the childish, churlish, vulgar, over-the-top and outright untruths.  My opinion?  You lost - America won - she lives to fight another day.  Be part of the solution, or move out of the way and go stand with the losers who can't get a grip on reality. 

Pfffft!

[LateForLunch]

We're in a new paradigm.   

Rather than giving in to hopeless resignation, it might be better to create a new paradigm in which vituperation is left behind when posting wherever possible. Condemning or insulting those who disagree with us tends to shut down discussion rather than encourage it.

For those with a literary bent, I would suggest  Tolkien's "Silmarillion", which he regarded as a more significant work than his Lord of the Rings/Hobbit series because  the former deals directly with many of the precise ideological and political issues with which we are grappling today - namely how people who like to think of themselves as good people can stick together to combat wickedness, deception and evil. It also explores how good people are yet prone to vulnerability to distraction from the greater righteous struggle by our own weaknesses and by the willful conniving and subversive stategeries (sic) of their enemies.