Author Topic: Pence backs trillion-dollar infrastructure bill, says America 'elected a CEO'  (Read 8100 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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@Cripplecreek @libertybele

How is it a conservative value to let our bridge, roads, water systems and other vital infrastructure rot away?

How is it Conservative to add another Trillion dollars in debt to the $20 trillion we've already rung up?
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Offline musiclady

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Hmmm.... "folks like you" ... ??   Please note that my comment wasn't directed towards anyone in particular; thus the words "ALL"; meaning everyone!  We've got a great forum here, I'd like for it to stay that way.  We went through a really rough period for awhile with people slinging mud with verbal insults and name-calling.  It is totally unnecessary and uncalled for an actually against forum rules.  Spewing ugliness is for other forums. PEACE!

I don't think we'll have peace until the Trump supporters deal with their anger and hyper-sensitivity issues.

Until then, they will overreact and strike out at anyone who disagrees with their 'leader.'
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geronl

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How should roads be paid for?

cities should fix city roads
counties should fix county roads
states should fix state roads and highways

Creating another massive slushfund that won't fix anything is not a good idea.

Offline Night Hides Not

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cities should fix city roads
counties should fix county roads
states should fix state roads and highways

Creating another massive slushfund that won't fix anything is not a good idea.

The federal gas tax raised over $35 billion in 2014, and that's not peanuts.
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Offline driftdiver

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The last time we got told our bridges and roads were in dire need of repair was just a mere 8 years ago and the American taxpayers (the few that are left) got stuck with a bill for $800 billion that is now a permanent part of the fiscal budget every year. 

Yet those bridges and roads are still in dire need of repair?

Someone should ask Pence how he as Governor spent the money allocated for those repairs in his state and why they still need to be fixed.

Pence didn't have control of the federal dollars.  The little bit of that which was actually allocated to roads.
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Offline txradioguy

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Pence didn't have control of the federal dollars.  The little bit of that which was actually allocated to roads.

$50-60 billion dollars is not a little amount.

And Pence did have control over what ever part of that was allocated to his state.

And again...why just 8 years after the last 800 billion we were told was needed for immediate repair of our infrastructure that was in dire condition are we needing it again?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 08:26:06 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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The federal gas tax raised over $35 billion in 2014, and that's not peanuts.

And that's on top of what the states and counties and cities add on for taxes to a gallon of gas.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

geronl

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Pence didn't have control of the federal dollars.  The little bit of that which was actually allocated to roads.

Obama's stimulus allocated $5 billion to weatherising homes....

How many homes did it weatherised, many failed inspection and overbilling was expected

It was all fraud and waste.

The federal government is the least efficient way to go.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Bingo. The job is Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces.

Plus, most of the infrastructure referenced isn't under the authority of the fed to fix, its the State's authority.

Yep. I can think of several cases where infrastructure money was siphoned off at every level and what was left over was misspent locally.

When the state handed out $5 million in highway funds to my county a few years ago, my county promptly blew $3 million tearing out a concrete wall they never should have built in a county park. They replaced it with an over expensive wrought iron fence. They also blew a half million dollars repaving a bike trail through the city. They blew $3.5 million before they ever thought about roads.

Plenty of blame to go around for the state and locals but they might not treat the money like windfall money if it never went to the feds in the first place. Keep your locally generated revenue and spending local where your local govt can be held responsible.

As an aside, I'm not suggesting that things can be done like this today but its very interesting to see how things were done in the past. My great grandfather took this pic of people in our hometown gathered for a "road building bee".


Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Pence didn't have control of the federal dollars.  The little bit of that which was actually allocated to roads.
Big government it's just find as long as our guy is in charge. Got it.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Does Trump know he can't get a write off losses on wasted stimulus money like he could his failed Trump way corporations?

[attachment deleted by admin]
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Night Hides Not

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Big government it's just find as long as our guy is in charge. Got it.

Can't disagree with you, partner.

Trump supporters will be on shortly to excoriate us, telling us how the Trump Administration will get these projects done on time and under budget.

Of course, there is ample evidence how Trump was able to get his projects completed under budget...by shorting his contractors.

I know, Trump supporters will say he know how to drive a hard bargain.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Yep. I can think of several cases where infrastructure money was siphoned off at every level and what was left over was misspent locally.

When the state handed out $5 million in highway funds to my county a few years ago, my county promptly blew $3 million tearing out a concrete wall they never should have built in a county park. They replaced it with an over expensive wrought iron fence. They also blew a half million dollars repaving a bike trail through the city. They blew $3.5 million before they ever thought about roads.

Plenty of blame to go around for the state and locals but they might not treat the money like windfall money if it never went to the feds in the first place. Keep your locally generated revenue and spending local where your local govt can be held responsible.

As an aside, I'm not suggesting that things can be done like this today but its very interesting to see how things were done in the past. My great grandfather took this pic of people in our hometown gathered for a "road building bee".


If we could get the EPA and other regulations out of the way roads, freeways in particular wouldn't be so blasted expensive to start with. I know I'm the last person on earth to think this way, but I'd settle for a few more dirt roads.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Can't disagree with you, partner.

Trump supporters will be on shortly to excoriate us, telling us how the Trump Administration will get these projects done on time and under budget.

Of course, there is ample evidence how Trump was able to get his projects completed under budget...by shorting his contractors.

I know, Trump supporters will say he know how to drive a hard bargain.
It's not a complicated concept. I want the government to quit wasting my money, not waste it better.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 09:03:05 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Sanguine

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Trump truly built his wealth, is generous.

Then I hope he can pay for this and not put the load on our kids and grandkids.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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If there are roads and bridges that the federal gov't is responsible to maintain, and they need to be maintained, it should be done.  But if we do it under the guise of stimulus, you're going to see a whole bunch of perfectly good road signs replaced by new, prettier ones, because, well, we've got money we NEED to spend (to "stimulate the economy", aka "buy the peoples' votes with their own money").  Spending money just to spend money is only good for the people who spend the money, not the people whose money is spent.

Early in econ classes, probably macro, you learn about the government money multiplier.  When the gov't spends money on roads, the road workers go out and spend the additional money on haircuts, and then the barbers spend that money on steaks, and then the butcher...etc.  The initial govenment spending is then multiplied as it ripples through the economy.  Yeah!

Most students get suckered into buying this.  Fortunately, a very few will think to ask where that money came from to begin with.  The answer is that it was taken out of the economy.  The doctor who was taxed to pay the road worker will now not spend that money on haircuts...etc.  In the end, there is no magic money multiplier, because the supposed wonderful effects are offset by the negative effects no one ever wants to mention (not to mention gov't waste, corruption, and fraud).  But on the bright side, instead of the spending decisions being dictated by the invisible hand of a free people, they are dictated by the iron fist of gov't.

Fortunately, we have Republicans who can stimulate the economy with a free market approach by giving money ("back") to the people to spend as they choose.  Sounds good.  They did this under Bush at least once.  Remember those $300 tax "rebate" checks?  Well, I don't.  My income was too high (or as I prefer to refer to it, I paid too much in taxes) to qualify.  People who paid nothing in got "rebates", those who paid too much got nothing.  This was done for a reason.  Give my money back to me, and I will save it, not spend it.  Give it to someone who can't or won't save it, and it will be spent (see wonders of money multiplier above).  Great, free market redistibution of wealth.  Totally unfair, but at least it allows the government to "stimulate" the economy by taking the money I wasn't going to spend and giving it to someone who will.

Of course, once again we're ignoring half of the equation.  When you give me back my money and I put it in the bank, it doesn't just sit there.  It gets leant out, wait for it, stimulating the economy [comparison of the relation between the government money multiplier and the wonders of fractional reserve lending omitted, as my stomach has had about enough of this Keynesian aggregate demand nonsense for today].  Or it doesn't, because it was taken away and given to someone else.  Once again, the government can't just create free money to stimulate the economy [technically, I should use the word "wealth" and not "money", that's another discussion].  What it gives, it also has to take.

No matter how many times Paul Krugman completely and utterly presents only one half of the discussion, TANSTAAFL.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that the government can't take actions that will stimulate the economy (preferably just getting the bleep out of the way), I'm saying that there is no magic.  Lowering taxes would stimulate the economy by letting the people spend more of their own money, but is that really stimulus or is it just doing less to impede economic output in the first place?
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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I want the government to quit wasting my money, not waste it better.

Took me like eight paragraphs to say that. 

You win.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

geronl

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Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that the government can't take actions that will stimulate the economy (preferably just getting the bleep out of the way), I'm saying that there is no magic.  Lowering taxes would stimulate the economy by letting the people spend more of their own money, but is that really stimulus or is it just doing less to impede economic output in the first place?

 :amen:

Offline driftdiver

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$50-60 billion dollars is not a little amount.

And Pence did have control over what ever part of that was allocated to his state.

And again...why just 8 years after the last 800 billion we were told was needed for immediate repair of our infrastructure that was in dire condition are we needing it again?

Uh 8 years is 8 years.   Things wear and breakdown.   Or do you think roads last forever.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Took me like eight paragraphs to say that. 

You win.
Yes, but you presented the economics of why very well. The government multiplier is a very tricky slight of hand, if I spend a dollar no multiplier if the government spends my dollar angels start singing and everybody gets a dollar. It's like John Maynard Keynes came by and pulled a quarter out from behind your ear.

From an Austrian point of view you run a serious risk of causing mal-investment which leads to a correctionary recession. You load the money catapult and fire it at road builders and goose the demand for their service and they investment in equipment, the equipment folks buy more steel, the steel industry hires workers (the multiplier effect), and everything is hunk-dory. Until... You run out of other peoples money and demand returns to its rightful level and you get the layoffs etc. If you cut taxes you increase prosperity over the long run and you allow the market to determine the expenditures which inherently more efficient (in an economic sense ie. less mal-investment) than the government guessing where to spend the money.

“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Cripplecreek

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If we could get the EPA and other regulations out of the way roads, freeways in particular wouldn't be so blasted expensive to start with. I know I'm the last person on earth to think this way, but I'd settle for a few more dirt roads.

Its funny but I actually agreed with Jenny Granholm saying that some roads would need to return to dirt.

When oil and gas infrastructure went in around my hometown some 30 years ago the big truck ruined the dirt roads so the roads were paved. After a few years the infrastructure was finished and almost all the trucks were gone. For 30 years we've been paying to maintain these paved roads despite the fact that they may only have a house or two per mile and aren't connecting routes with very little traffic. Now the same is happening where I live today.

The street I live on is a dead end two track and I'm just fine with that. My neighbor and I are fighting with the county to get them to abandon it. In 20 years the county has plowed it once. The county doesn't want to abandon it because they want to be able to claim every inch when calling for funding.

Offline Night Hides Not

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My macro econ professor summed it up well: there are no free lunches.
You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.

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Offline txradioguy

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Uh 8 years is 8 years.   Things wear and breakdown.   Or do you think roads last forever.

Umm...yeah...ok
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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I actually think we could privatize, and reprivatize, some of the more remote long haul roads.


Not a popular sentiment but there we are.

Offline Sanguine

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Its funny but I actually agreed with Jenny Granholm saying that some roads would need to return to dirt.

When oil and gas infrastructure went in around my hometown some 30 years ago the big truck ruined the dirt roads so the roads were paved. After a few years the infrastructure was finished and almost all the trucks were gone. For 30 years we've been paying to maintain these paved roads despite the fact that they may only have a house or two per mile and aren't connecting routes with very little traffic. Now the same is happening where I live today.

The street I live on is a dead end two track and I'm just fine with that. My neighbor and I are fighting with the county to get them to abandon it. In 20 years the county has plowed it once. The county doesn't want to abandon it because they want to be able to claim every inch when calling for funding.

I live 6.5 miles down a dirt road.  The county comes and grades it periodically, but there are few homes along it and we are all fine with it as is.