Author Topic: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition  (Read 8780 times)

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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2016, 09:40:07 pm »
You've hit on the root of the problem.  There may be no solution until the situation is publicly named, and publicly remedied.  Force is not an option -- it shuts out any solutions short of force.

I don't have a global answer; but I have shown an example of how the process can and does work.  If there is a government solution to these protests, then Trump and his minions have the option of naming somebody to deal with the problem.  And that person has the freedom to decide with whom he will negotiate.  That gets around the systemic bias, because the person authorized to negotiate, also gets to name the team who will carry out the details.


It works with sane people. It does not work with committed leftists who run these things. You're right. There may be no solution. But one does not negotiate with terrorists. In Iraq or North Dakota.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2016, 10:16:49 pm »
More or less true.  But as the green lady said above, these things must be done delicately.  Ham-fisted responses -- which they're hoping for! -- will make things even worse.

In cases like this, triangulation is the proper approach. 

First, acknowledge that, hidden behind the protests, there are some legitimate concerns -- because there probably are.  Next, find somebody on the other side who's reasonable -- and there will be such -- and make him the de facto spokesman for the movement.  Air concerns and arguments on both sides, and actually attempt to find middle ground -- it's almost certainly there.

This approach has worked well in other places.  For example, the logging industry in Oregon was hamstrung like this until a series of enormous fires brought people to their senses.  The enviros' total opposition to logging had created a tremendous fuel load, which of course burned.  But they had legitimate grievances against the logging practices of the time (vast clear-cutting operations). 

After the fires, sensible adults on all sides came together to work out a better way of doing things.  As it stands now, the Forest Service, logging concerns, and the enviros seem to have actually done good work in coming up with a workable compromise solution.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be tried in ND as well.
Behind the protests, there is a lot of hyperbole. The "Indian burial ground" tactic is an old one. In this case, there is no burial ground. If remains are found, those are assessed as to origin (Native vs white), and if Indian, the appropriate Shaman(s) brought in to settle the spirits and the grave/remains are either moved or closed and re-routed around. This stuff is handled delicately, not out of politics so much as respect, the same respect we'd accord if a wagonload of settlers had been buried out there on the prairie, too.
Rockpiles (what they are calling "cairns") are common as cat dirt north of the Missouri, just because the last ice sheet seeded the ground with chunks of Canada ranging in size from grains of sand to larger than a Peterbuilt. When farming, those rocks are cleaned out of the soil using a rockpicker (once with a wagon and by hand), and piled off to the side of cultivated fields. there are rockpiles all over North Dakota, evidence of cultivation, not so much occupation otherwise. There are tipi rings, the occasional cairn, and fire pit stones, and I have seen all three, some in incredible states of preservation. Those are pretty obvious by their configuration and by fire reddening of the pit stones. Cairns were piled, with a small footprint often smaller than their height, and usually remain that way. They were used as markers, often for trails, boundaries, and more rarely, graves. It is easy enough to assess which, and natural accumulations are evident, too.

The route the pipeline follows has been surveyed for the Northern Border Gas pipeline, for a power line right of way, and again for this pipeline. Cultural remains would have been found by now, but there are people on site in case any are located while putting the pipeline in.

Rare plants, rare animals, rare insects, items of historical and prehistorical significance have been surveyed for and the right of way is clear of those. Those problems have been addressed, and over 300 meetings have been held with tribal representatives to address any concerns. It isn't like there hasn't been dialogue.

Water issues: The pipeline will pass 80 ft. below the bottom of the river. That will be horizontally drilled to stay well below the bottom of the old river channel. If the Upper Missouri dams were all breached, and the river returned to free flowing for its entire length, it would take centuries, if not millennia, to erode the bottom of the river down to the level of the pipeline. The last problem had with a pipeline on the Missouri (actually, the Yellowstone) was up by Laurel, MT, when during extraordinarily severe river flows after a very fast Spring Melt with record snow pack, the pipeline crossing there was washed out and rocks tumbled against it damaging the line. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxon-mobil-montana-spill-idUSKCN11R29O

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/03/yellowstone-river-suffers-oil-spill

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/02/montana.oil.spill/index.html

By placing the line so much lower than the bottom of the river, the chances of a similar incident are removed from the table. Indeed, the company building this pipeline does not want any incident like that, and has taken steps to avoid it.

As pipelines go, this one will be state-of-the art, with the very intention of avoiding problems, partly because of the revenue loss that would accompany such an incident. The profit motive is definitely present to avoid trouble, and being a good neighbor is essential to continued oil activity in any region. The present lines having problems are often much older lines, some pushing half a century or more in age. With those problems have come lessons in avoiding future troubles, and with technology, the ability to prevent them.
Most leaks are associated with equipment operator error, but this leak was apparently from a lightning strike. http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/pipeline-leak-spills-20600-barrels-oil-near-tioga-nd The initial routing of the pipeline helped limit the damage done, and the cleanup has since been completed.

The result is that better monitoring of pipeline pressures and throughput have been implemented, and helped avoid disaster when protesters broke into facilities and shut valves on pipelines earlier this year. https://sputniknews.com/environment/201610121046243288-oil-pipeline-shutdown-protest/
http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html

The bottom line, though is that the Obamites are likely having nocturnal emissions over the whole show. They have tried from day one to shut down the boom in oil produced from unconventional reservoirs like the Bakken/Three Forks, and they aren't going to do anything about it. The disparity in law enforcement efforts is blatant on the part of the Federal Government. https://sputniknews.com/us/201610041045969636-feds-wont-evict-dapl-camp/

In the end, if the government won't do anything, the pipeline company will likely have to either re-route or quit. That's just wrong, especially considering the land is not tribal land (not part of a reservation), it was private property with the exception of Corps of Engineers land. If the Tribe had felt there were sacred sites or remains on that land, they have had over a hundred years to find a way to acquire it. This amounts to an illegal 'taking' in that they are seeking to establish a zone of control beyond their own land. That dog won't hunt, but right now, force is what the out of state groups (90% of the 'protest'). are hoping for. They want to be Rachel Corrie, maybe without the caterpillar prints, but of similar stature in their twisted world. Note, in photos of the protest camp, the ubiquitous blue polyethylene tarps, made cheaply by cheap oil. There is nothing quite like hypocrites on parade.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:22:04 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2016, 10:18:01 pm »
Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2016, 10:19:40 pm »
Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
Nope. My bad. I made the mistake of assuming it was current. I should know better.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2016, 10:19:41 pm »
Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:

You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #105 on: November 11, 2016, 10:24:14 pm »
Behind the protests, there is a lot of hyperbole....

That is an outstanding post. It also spells out a good negotiating position.

Of course, the real intent of the protest is against pipelines of all sorts, for lots of reasons.  The tactics here are just a variation on the standard "cute, cuddly fish" tactics that have worked for them in the past.

So the way you address such things, is to have "serious, frank, and substantive exchanges of views" with sane spokesmen from the other side.  There are some, somewhere.  Address actual concerns, even.

And for the rest, there's no rule against leaking the money trail, and exposing their real agenda.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:26:15 pm by r9etb »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #106 on: November 11, 2016, 10:25:34 pm »
You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?
@Machiavelli @Norm Lenhart

Actually, the thread has morphed into a discussion of the Dakota Access Pipeline protests, which is a bit of a sidebar. The original thread is about Trump picking a climate 'skeptic' for his transition team, and that being done even before the election (five weeks ago) is significant, in terms of delay. If this pick was made today, it might have more relevance than a promise made before the election. If Trump sticks to the pick, fine, but things have a way of changing after the votes are counted.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #107 on: November 11, 2016, 10:36:18 pm »
That is an outstanding post.

Of course, the real intent of the protest is against pipelines of all sorts, for lots of reasons.  The tactics here just a variation on the standard "cute, cuddly fish" tactics that have worked for them in the past.

So the way you address such things, is to have "serious, frank, and substantive exchanges of views" with sane spokesmen from the other side.  There are some, somewhere.  Address actual concerns, even.

And for the rest, there's no rule against leaking the money trail, and exposing their real agenda.
My outside the box take on this is simple. It was a thing where the Tribe tried to get a cut of the deal, which was going outside tribal land. Thus, the Tribe could not do the usual trick of forcing contractors to buy licenses to operate on reservation land or hiring Tribal members for crews, both of which are common ways to extract money from any venture operating on tribal land. Nope, the only way to cash in on the pipeline was to claim "burial grounds", which even though unfounded in this case is a flare up for all the enviros and others to protest, too, and collect a 'settlement' as part of deciding there maybe weren't any significant remains there, after all. This sounds cynical, but it happens. Well, oops, that stuff got out of hand.

More media attention than needed, not just a holdup (in more ways than one) but now a huge media circus and a tiger by the tail. Letting go could be problematical for the Tribe, and the various ecowhackos won't relent until incarcerated. The latter are the ones who want to dance naked in the trees (thank God those are in short supply here) and commune with Gaia. They are not reasonable. They break and burn things and chance rupturing four major pipelines by breaking into facilities and tampering with valves, which could burst lines with up to 1000 psi of operating pressure. http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html
Think the 'Whale warrior' bit on teevee, and how that ended up, interfering with a lawful harvest.

"Reasonable people" have been talked with (over 300 meetings with Tribal Representatives, nearly 400, in fact), but the rest are out burning vehicles to roadblock bridges and shutting off pipeline valves, and frankly, I don't think the situation on the protest side is under control any more, just contained.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 10:39:25 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #108 on: November 11, 2016, 10:38:13 pm »
You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?

@Norm Lenhart

No, I did not.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #109 on: November 11, 2016, 10:44:33 pm »
@Norm Lenhart

No, I did not.

Ultimately it's just a synonym for everything from BLM to the actual Bureau of Land Management anyway. The same subject is repeating in various forms but the conversations for them all are about identical. This thing is the same as every other protest over land/mines/trees etc around the country the left has created.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2016, 10:54:24 pm »
@Norm Lenhart

No, I did not.
Actually, I am a couple hundred miles away as the crow flies.

Deputies from our county have been involved in the LEO effort down there, though.

The impact on this area is that half of the oil produced here could be going down that pipeline, at a transport savings of $2.3 million a day.

Feeder pipeline projects which tie into that pipeline are being held up, and aside from the wells that won't be drilled because the money will have been spent sending oil out by BNSF (Warren Buffett's railway), other projects are on hold as well. That translates to a negative economic impact here, but even more, the state relies on extraction taxes (a percentage of oil produced) for part of the budget, income and sales taxes from those operations, etc., some of which goes into a property tax relief fund for the State's school districts.

Everyone in the state is paying more in the near future because of this protest, some more than others, either in terms of lost wages or continued unemployment, reduced oil royalties (generally 20%, but if costs to transport are $5/bbl higher, that translates to a dollar a barrel less mineral owners get as royalty payments), reduced tax revenues: income from jobs that did not materialize or are held up, extraction taxes (a percentage of the value of oil produced), sales taxes (for stuff not bought), and that fund from the extraction tax that goes to offset the school tax on residential property statewide, which will be made up in either budget cuts for education or higher property taxes for everyone (because renters pay property taxes, too, factored in as part of their rent).

The impact is costing everyone in the State, and no Federal assistance has been forthcoming for LEO efforts, which have cost over ten million dollars so far.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2016, 12:27:43 am »
Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
What click the link. People do such a thing? Nope, didn't look at the date.  :baghead: 888oops888 888blushing8888
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Offline mrclose

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Re: Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2016, 12:34:55 am »
Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:

All you had to do is to put the guys name into Google and click on tools.
Select past week and you're up to date!

https://www.google.com/search?q=myron+ebell+trump&biw=672&bih=333&tbs=qdr:w&tbm=nws&ei=EWImWPuNIuzejwS0loeoDQ&start=10&sa=N&dpr=2.86

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-environmentalists-idUSKBN1362EU?il=0

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