Last Day Before Election: Most Major Polls Have Hillary Clinton Winning

[Norm Lenhart]

Because "Neither"   is not going to be President.   One of the two will be,   and therefore no other consideration is relevant to the future.   


Choosing "neither"  is a cowardly way out of a moral dilemma.     It means you  will leave it up to others to do what must be done.

You sure have creative excuses for intentionally and willfully voting for evil. But you are still empowering evil.

[DiogenesLamp]

As I do you. Believe it our not, what torqued me off was Norms characterization of people like me as having abandoned my principles, making me a 'bad' conservative.

Its characteristic of this entire election season. We just aren't on the same page.

I've seen the exact same behavior from both sides,  and if the truth be known,   my observation is that the Trump supporters have done more of it.   


The *neverTrumpers* seem to be trying to catch up.   


I used to believe that Liberals were chaotic and emotionally driven while Conservatives were thoughtful and rational,    but i've seen enough evidence to convince me that we have our fair share of the same sort of people,   they just happen to side with us on the issues.   

[jpsb]

I do not believe the leftists, once in total control, will take any more chances.

Bingo, they won't and with president Hillary they will be able to seize power; with amnesty and progressive judges they will never have to give that power up. The USA will effectively have been taken over in a Marxist coup.

[Smokin Joe]

Because "Neither"   is not going to be President.   One of the two will be,   and therefore no other consideration is relevant to the future.   


Choosing "neither"  is a cowardly way out of a moral dilemma.     It means you  will leave it up to others to do what must be done.

When there is overwhelming pressure to choose one of two unacceptable alternatives, "NO" is not cowardly, and it is the only way out of a moral dilemma created of a false dichotomy.
If enough opted for that third option, there would indeed be a viable way out.

It is the cowardice that adheres to one unacceptable outcome out of fear of another unacceptable outcome that perpetuates unacceptable choices and moral dilemmas.

My conscience is clear.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Thats the entire point - after more than forty years of total domination of the media, academia and most aspects of government by the leftwing statists there was still a chance that this year we'd nominate a conservative. We came very close.

I do not believe the leftists, once in total control, will take any more chances.

This was an election the GOP blew because it overthought the 2012 loss, and (wrongly) concluded that we needed to liberalize on immigration.  That opened the door for someone who was willing to loudly challenge the immigration orthodoxy.  Immigration was the issue that gave Trump the nomination.

But though we blew that chance, we still had a chance.  I don't think that will be the case in 2020 if Hillary wins.  12 years of Democrat court appointments, control of the borders....it's just not something from which we can recover.

[skeeter]

I've seen the exact same behavior from both sides,  and if the truth be known,   my observation is that the Trump supporters have done more of it.   


The *neverTrumpers* seem to be trying to catch up.   


I used to believe that Liberals were chaotic and emotionally driven while Conservatives were thoughtful and rational,    but i've seen enough evidence to convince me that we have our fair share of the same sort of people,   they just happen to side with us on the issues.

I certainly understand why people on our side are p*ssed off, having been ignored, demeaned, humiliated and having watched their way of life degraded for the past x number of decades by the gatekeepers of popular culture and the political classes they've got every reason to be.

But can we direct our fire at the other side next time, please?

[Bigun]

Thats the entire point - after more than forty years of total domination of the media, academia and most aspects of government by the leftwing statists there was still a chance that this year we'd nominate a conservative. We came very close.

I do not believe the leftists, once in total control, will take any more chances.

I don't believe they took one this time!  May the once great republic rest in peace!

[DiogenesLamp]

I'm sorry I don't buy this argument. First I think it is problematic that 10's of million citizens will be newly minted,  the biggest boon to newly minted citizens in the last year was the GOP nomination of Donald Trump.

Second, getting  ones citizenship is not a trivial matter, these people for the most part spend a lot of hard earned dollars and pretty much demonstrate that they are committed to the American way of life. The GOP and many conservatives have bought into the idea that  they are here looking for a handout and they will vote for the Dims. Which is frankly flat out wrong in most cases.

It is messages like this that convince me that I am discussing matters with people who do not have a freaking clue about what is actually happening.   


You are describing how it is SUPPOSED to work.    You are not describing how it is actually happening.   Wave after wave of illegals are sneaking in and  voting.   Estimates are that there are 11 million of them,   and the Democrats want to give them amnesty.   


11 million illegals simply declared to be US Voters.     Almost all of them have socialist predilections because they overwhelmingly come from countries with socialist predilections.   

Smart Conservatives (which daily becomes more of an oxymoron) should look at immigrants as a potential resource rather than writing them off as a lost cause...

It is a potential resource.....  for DEMOCRATS!!!!!!    It's 11 million more people who will reliably buy into government handouts and identity politics.     


Do you not keep up with what is happening?   

[skeeter]

It is messages like this that convince me that I am discussing matters with people who do not have a freaking clue about what is actually happening.   


You are describing how it is SUPPOSED to work.    You are not describing how it is actually happening.   Wave after wave of illegals are sneaking in and  voting.   Estimates are that there are 11 million of them,   and the Democrats want to give them amnesty.   


11 million illegals simply declared to be US Voters.     Almost all of them have socialist predilections because they overwhelmingly come from countries with socialist predilections.   





It is a potential resource.....  for DEMOCRATS!!!!!!    It's 11 million more people who will reliably buy into government handouts and identity politics.     


Do you not keep up with what is happening?   

Good hearted altruistic sentiments.

But utterly lethal to our republic.

I do not know how to respond to them anymore.

[Oceander]

Because "Neither"   is not going to be President.   One of the two will be,   and therefore no other consideration is relevant to the future.   


Choosing "neither"  is a cowardly way out of a moral dilemma.     It means you  will leave it up to others to do what must be done.   

The obligation is to vote for whom one feels is best suited out of the candidates on the slate.  It is not about choosing which of the more likely candidates you hate the least.  And it is not moral cowardice to vote your conscience even though most of your fellow voters are unlikely to vote with you, it is the height of moral courage.  Doing the right thing consists in doing what your conscience, upon due reflection, tells you to do. If that means you must stand in the wilderness alone, then that is what the moral individual will do.  Voting for one of the top two because that one is more likely to win is not moral courage; convincing ones self that it's always better to try and discern, and choose, the lesser of two evils, no matter how objectively evil that lesser is, constitutes true moral cowardice.  If there is no line beyond which one will not go, even if it means suffering the consequences of others poor choices, then one will eventually become exactly what one opposes. 

For myself, if I believed that either Trump or Clinton was not beyond my personal line, my conscience's point of no return, I would have voted for the lesser, because it wouldn't be voting for evil, merely a lesser degree of incompetence.  But that is not the case.  Both are irredeemably evil - both have crossed my line of no return - and I will not follow either one across that line and into the singularity of becoming everything I oppose. 

You obviously feel different.  Such is life. 

[skeeter]

I don't believe they took one this time!  May the once great republic rest in peace!

No they didn't. But each time they acquire more tools.

SCOTUS, amnesty will put them over the top, IMO.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

But can we direct our fire at the other side next time, please?

I was this close to being #neverTrump.  I was absolutely furious about how he had degraded the entire GOP primary process, and I didn't want to reward that kind of behavior by voting for him.

But then I started noticing that even after he wrapped up the nomination, most of #neverTrump was not only not supporting him, but actively attacking him.  And to the relative exclusion of attacking Hillary.  It was like the most important thing to them became showing how bad Trump was, as a way of validating their position and proving themselves "right".

The problem is that made for a one-way firefight.  The Democrats were attacking Trump.  The media was attacking Trump, and all the #nevertrumpers were attacking Trump.  That meant that Hillary -- and more importantly the ideas she represented -- was going largely unchallenged.  She was getting a virtual pass because of all those so eager to beat their chests and thunder about their anti-Trump morality were ignoring her.

That's a big part of what swung me over.  Hillary deserved to be fought, and the only people actively fighting her were Trump supporters.  So as much as I dislike Trump, and disagreed with so many of the Trump true-believers, I figured that was the side that needed more support.  So I've been expending my ammo in her direction, and will be firing off my last bit -- my vote -- today.

[Bigun]

Does anyone remember the scene from Lonesome Dove where the Doc tells McRay that it's FAR to late and Augustus is going to die! 

THAT is where WE are as a country today!

[Norm Lenhart]

Does anyone remember the scene from Lonesome Dove where the Doc tells McRay that it's FAR to late and Augustus is going to die! 

THAT is where WE are as a country today!

Thats because moral relativists put their desire to win over their country, right and wrong. The result was as predictable as the sun rising. Presented with an alternative, Third parties or Write ins, they willingly chose evil.

[Bigun]

Thats because moral relativists put their desire to win over their country, right and wrong. The result was as predictable as the sun rising. Presented with an alternative, Third parties or Write ins, they willingly chose evil.

Yep and I was one of them for FAR to long!

[Mod1]

Hello gang!

It's time to close this discussion, such as it is, and move over to the live Election thread.  I'm locking now.

** Election Day 2016 ** LIVE THREAD **