Author Topic: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump  (Read 67309 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #525 on: October 21, 2016, 07:57:00 pm »
What about the promise he made to his supporters? That of being principled? The man went out, made the ""Let me tell you what I think about Donald Trump" comments that are 100% about why no conservative could possibly vote for such a man.

"And I will say, there are millions of people in this country who are angry. They’re angry at Washington, they’re angry at politicians who have lied to them, I understand that anger. I share that anger. And Donald is cynically exploiting that anger, and he is lying to his supporters.

Donald will betray his supporters on every issue. If you care about immigration, Donald is laughing at you. And he’s telling the moneyed elites that he doesn’t believe what he’s saying, he’s not gonna build a wall – that’s what he told the New York Times, he will betray you on every issue across the board."

There is zero wiggle room there. None. For him to go out and then endorse Trump, which he did whether or not he spoke 4 words, is a total reversal of his statement above. How does one get from "he will betray you on every issue across the board." to working actively to getting that man elected without passing squarely through "sell out"?


On Motive:

Where/at what point, if any, does motive become a disqualifying factor to an end? If one motive is noble and pure as the driven snow to get to X, and another is as vile and corrupt and evil as hell itself to get to X, then are both OK? Is that not situational ethics? Is that not the end result justifying the means of arrival?

When did Cruz say he wouldn't ever vote for DT?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #526 on: October 21, 2016, 07:59:27 pm »
   I understand yall's animosity toward Cruz, though @sinkspur 's attitude is a bitter pill to swallow on this subject, that aside, people lose sight of the fact that he's only 1 in a body of a 100 and usually has 95~98 of them hating his guts on the level of the aforementioned poster.  He's only 1 Man and I believe, in spite of this Election's luke warm endorsement of the orange one, He will rise again to fight the Battles Conservatives want and expect him to fight.

Yeah, but who does @sinkspur ever like?   

Offline corbe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #527 on: October 21, 2016, 08:07:39 pm »
I was a strong supporter of his. I fought a lot of battles with whack job Trump cultists on his behalf because I believed in him. So for myself and many like me to get stabbed in the back as he did, That's not forgivable. Its a fundamental breach of trust. And he isn't asking anyway.


   As you mentioned earlier, No one's perfect in our mortal world (or something to that effect), and Sen. Cruz never pretended to be.

   He's got 2 years to shore up his base for reelection to the Senate and explain why you shouldn't be so butthurt over his actions, and I'm sure He will just laugh it off on his way to a landslide, because in the final analysis, If not him (a proven constitutional Conservative), who will fight these idiots in a Schumer/McConnell Senate?

   He has no need to worry about 2018, (if he decides to seek reelection) Texas still love's him and will support him with Time/Money.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #528 on: October 21, 2016, 08:09:45 pm »
I see leadership skills are not among your finer qualities. You basically just said "Accept what you are given or else" which curiously is what destroyed the GOP as a political force.

You also adopted Obama's "I won" mentality. Pretty readily too, come to think of it.

@Norm Lenhart

Leadership involves listening to others, making progress where one can and minimizing damage when you cannot.   Continuous retreat is not good leadership.

What has destroyed Conservatism is the inability to think beyond ones nose.   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #529 on: October 21, 2016, 08:16:14 pm »
Yeah, but who does @sinkspur ever like?

@corbe @Sanguine

There is a reason some people hide in their basement playing on the internet.  IMO we give too much credence to people who have not managed to accomplish anything in life and never will just because they are a name on a website.
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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #530 on: October 21, 2016, 08:17:08 pm »
@Norm Lenhart

Leadership involves listening to others, making progress where one can and minimizing damage when you cannot.   Continuous retreat is not good leadership.

What has destroyed Conservatism is the inability to think beyond ones nose.

Leadership is also knowing when to stop listening to people out to sabotage your entire purpose.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #531 on: October 21, 2016, 08:18:54 pm »

   As you mentioned earlier, No one's perfect in our mortal world (or something to that effect), and Sen. Cruz never pretended to be.

   He's got 2 years to shore up his base for reelection to the Senate and explain why you shouldn't be so butthurt over his actions, and I'm sure He will just laugh it off on his way to a landslide, because in the final analysis, If not him (a proven constitutional Conservative), who will fight these idiots in a Schumer/McConnell Senate?

   He has no need to worry about 2018, (if he decides to seek reelection) Texas still love's him and will support him with Time/Money.

Then they should do that if they choose. If he runs for prez in 20, he can count on me not voting for him. You can trust him. I no longer do.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #532 on: October 21, 2016, 08:19:06 pm »
Somebody like him, intellectually.  But I just don't trust him; never have.  He's too ambitious for my taste.

@r9etb

An ambitious Senator?!   The horror

How many people without ambition or an unhealthy love over power ever seek to become a Senator?
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Offline Emjay

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #533 on: October 21, 2016, 08:20:12 pm »
I am going to try and never even think about Cruz ever again.  I don't live in Texas, so...don't have to.  Texans can do whatever they want to.  He is valuable in the Senate but I have no power to keep him there or to remove him.  I am disappointed big time that he endorsed Trump.  That will weight on my scale of big factors to consider if he ever runs for President again.

You are making a mistake.  We need Cruz in the Senate and we will need him in the next election.  He did not betray anyone.  And he did not endorse Trump.  He said he was voting for the Republican candidate.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #534 on: October 21, 2016, 08:27:11 pm »
You are making a mistake.  We need Cruz in the Senate and we will need him in the next election.  He did not betray anyone.  And he did not endorse Trump.  He said he was voting for the Republican candidate.

Then Bill did not have sex with Monica.

Offline corbe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #535 on: October 21, 2016, 08:30:03 pm »
   Heck, even ol' Jeb! ignores him
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Offline corbe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #536 on: October 21, 2016, 08:37:46 pm »
   Trump's on a roll, at a NC Rally today:

Quote
“I always say I don’t want to think back, ‘If I did one more rally, I would have won North Carolina by 500 votes instead of losing it by 200 votes,” he said, describing an Election Day possibility. “I never want to say that about myself.”

Less than five minutes later, while urging his supporters to get out and vote, Trump told the crowd: “What a waste of time if we don’t pull this off.”
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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #538 on: October 21, 2016, 08:42:58 pm »
What about the promise he made to his supporters? That of being principled? The man went out, made the ""Let me tell you what I think about Donald Trump" comments that are 100% about why no conservative could possibly vote for such a man.

"And I will say, there are millions of people in this country who are angry. They’re angry at Washington, they’re angry at politicians who have lied to them, I understand that anger. I share that anger. And Donald is cynically exploiting that anger, and he is lying to his supporters.

Donald will betray his supporters on every issue. If you care about immigration, Donald is laughing at you. And he’s telling the moneyed elites that he doesn’t believe what he’s saying, he’s not gonna build a wall – that’s what he told the New York Times, he will betray you on every issue across the board."

There is zero wiggle room there. None. For him to go out and then endorse Trump, which he did whether or not he spoke 4 words, is a total reversal of his statement above. How does one get from "he will betray you on every issue across the board." to working actively to getting that man elected without passing squarely through "sell out"?


On Motive:

Where/at what point, if any, does motive become a disqualifying factor to an end? If one motive is noble and pure as the driven snow to get to X, and another is as vile and corrupt and evil as hell itself to get to X, then are both OK? Is that not situational ethics? Is that not the end result justifying the means of arrival?
Cruz made the mistake of painting himself into a corner.
Either he lied when he made the pledge, or he was stuck giving support to Trump.
As I said, I doubt he will do that again.

His statement:
Quote
After many months of careful consideration, of prayer and searching my own conscience, I have decided that on Election Day, I will vote for the Republican nominee, Donald Trump.

I’ve made this decision for two reasons. First, last year, I promised to support the Republican nominee. And I intend to keep my word.

Second, even though I have had areas of significant disagreement with our nominee, by any measure Hillary Clinton is wholly unacceptable — that’s why I have always been #NeverHillary
In closing, he said:
Quote
A year ago, I pledged to endorse the Republican nominee, and I am honoring that commitment.
That was the time he used the word "endorse" and is  anything but a ringing endorsement, more a forced capitulation, and months after the fact.

I'm not about to mistake that for the ringing endorsement the Media would have us believe occurred.

Now, about results. Well, Cruz will vote for him (unless he lied). We'll never know who he votes for.

As for those of us who had already decided not to vote for Trump, who are #nevertrump, it doesn't matter what Cruz does. It's his right to vote however he wants to, and will not affect where I stand, nor where my vote will go. I made no such promise, I took no such pledge, and am free to do as I choose. That was the GOP 'Skull and Bones' moment, where the principled were encouraged to pledge their support for the brand regardless of who won. I really don't think any at that point were taking Trump as a serious contender. Oops. And a lesson for any principled person anywhere, any time, don't take an oath there is any chance you might not want to keep.

So I don't promise anything I am not sure I can deliver.

Back to Cruz. and call this what you will. Grant, first, though, we will likely never see a candidate without stain, without some principle we disagree on. Back to Reagan's 80%, and fight for the other 20 some other day. Cruz, with the exception of having been painted into this corner, comes closer to what we'd want in the White House than the other Republicans. the sad part is that he ended up in such a 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' situation to begin with.

It'd be like shooting a family member who was high on meth and attacked you with a knife.
Rotten choices lead to rotten decisions.

That's why we try to keep our choices from being so rotten to begin with. How Trump even got into the race is beyond me.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #539 on: October 21, 2016, 08:43:40 pm »
The best I can give you right now is to ignore him.  Trump is so extremely vile that it makes no sense.  Besides, they all backed out of that so-called agreement at the end of March.  INCLUDING TRUMP.

Cruz isn't running for reelection this year, so I'd say that all the talk about him now is only worth a hill of beans.

What'll matter is what he does in the next two years.

If he goes back to being a bomb-thrower without any sort of plan for what happens if his bluffs are called, then he'll end up another Trump.  IE: with a hard-core group of nihilist supporters that want to burn everything down... and no one else.

But if he uses the two years to build alliances and put forth the most conservative legislation *THAT CAN PASS*... then he'll get the support he needs beyond that of a small base.

The ball is in his court and he has control over it.

It's a good starting position.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #540 on: October 21, 2016, 09:01:04 pm »
Cruz made the mistake of painting himself into a corner.




That's why we try to keep our choices from being so rotten to begin with. How Trump even got into the race is beyond me.

I have a really hard time understanding how the man with such a brilliant mind backed himself into a corner that a bunch of us deewbs on the internet knew enough to avoid and discussed at the time. To me it looks like he gambled big and lost.

Choices: Yup. thats why getting the corrupting idea of 'lesser evil' out of the mix is imperative before it results in this fiasco yet again.

Offline libertybele

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #541 on: October 21, 2016, 09:11:44 pm »
It's not opinion. It's fact demonstrated by action.

Norm, I like to look at the whole picture rather than a quick glimpse.  If you consider Cruz a sellout that's certainly your opinion; some, including myself, don't feel that way.  He's demonstrated more times than not that he is for "We the People' and for our country.  He is one of the few conservatives we have left. He deserves a huge pat him on the back for his accomplishments and the excellent ground game he ran against the establishment and Trump. To chastise him for voting his conscience and doing what he feels is best for this country IMHO is absurd.  His record speaks for itself and I wish we had more Senators like him.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #542 on: October 21, 2016, 10:04:57 pm »
I have a really hard time understanding how the man with such a brilliant mind backed himself into a corner that a bunch of us deewbs on the internet knew enough to avoid and discussed at the time. To me it looks like he gambled big and lost.

Choices: Yup. thats why getting the corrupting idea of 'lesser evil' out of the mix is imperative before it results in this fiasco yet again.
Norm, on that we agree. I have a hard time understanding that, too, except that I think Cruz (and the rest of the field) underestimated the ability of Trump to ensnare the angry and underestimated Trump's willingness to go dirty long and hard through the primary campaign.

I honestly don't think any of those on the ticket were prepared for that rancor, but noticed a couple embraced it pretty early on. Not that I would have considered Christie, anyway, but Carson went way down in my estimation as soon as he toadied up to Trump. All history, now.

We need to start voting for the greater good. We won't get 100%, unless we are very, very lucky. Even so, I will vote for the candidate who best represents my beliefs and principles, above a threshold where I do not consider the % of good to be sufficient to merit my ballot. I think we all function that way, to some degree. I also think we have different thresholds. In Trump's case, the bar is just set too low.

Take a second and tell me how you select a candidate to support (or dump the field).

My methodology, simplified: (all in blue so you can skip it and read on if you choose)
I start with issues. If they don't align there, there's no point. I want 100% but will settle for 90% if the deal-breakers aren't areas of conflict.

Deal-breakers:
Abortion (must be pro life, or set to advance that cause),
Defense (Constitutional duty of the fedGov, including border security and controlling immigration, but not including 'nation building').
Gun Control (just say no, better yet, roll it back).
Global Warming/Climate Change: embrace that as any reason to form policy, lose my vote.
Taxes: Enough already, control spending, balance the budget, downsize all but the military.

Take adversarial positions on those issues and we aren't going to get along.
But the Republican Party demands only lip service to their platform, not adherence to the letter. When was the last time they kicked anyone out? So we are left with a useless label, not a matter of principle unless the candidate chooses to embrace principle. Which is why equating "Republican" with "conservative" has been an egregious mistake and either needs to stop, or Conservatives need to find a new label.

Part of the analysis has to include a credibility factor. Obviously if their stances on the issues don't match up, they get dropped from consideration, but the ones which align have to have a track record that supports those positions. Election year epiphanies don't hold water.
That will usually eliminate most of the rest, if they aren't already gone. Some years, they all are by then.

So that means we go back down the list for the last one on top and decide if we can, in good conscience, vote for them. Thus it has ever been, and ...


I have only cast a couple of ballots in wholehearted support of a candidate, ever, as I was locked into the false dichotomy of only two parties.

I have realized we need more choices, especially as the most likely people in terms of having principles which agree with my own, are going to be on another party ticket besides the Republicans and Democrats. I have found that the principles expressed in those third Party Platforms are more likely to be honest, although sometimes not entirely realistic or even a satire. There have not been the corrupting influences of the Uniparty to distort them, and if they didn't mean it, why bother? Credibility takes a jump there.

It doesn't take much more than time to go down the list of parties (some 70+) and eliminate most from consideration: too liberal, too single issue and not thought out, not serious, simple nutcase ideas, and ferret out those alternate parties which are serious and reasonably aligned. Of those I find one stood out for me.

Then opens a new world of parties squabbling for relevance, of hit pieces written by proponents of one of those parties against the candidate of another, and to some degree, the same sort of fish fighting for who will be the biggest in that smaller pond. Surely, if one is looking for a party to build up for the future, nothing to ignore. The basics apply: if you are taking flack, you're over the target, always find out about the writer of the hit piece and see what they are promoting (usually a competing party), and just because they might be more honest about their beliefs doesn't mean they won't pull dirty tricks to win. (Cody Quirk's hit pieces aimed at Castle, for instance {Quirk is a Libertarian}) But the race to 15% is on in third party circles, and the battle is hard fought for votes.

I would have liked to see a debate among the top three or four 'third' party candidates, just to get their take on the issues, and to see those parties get exposure, to provide that principled alternative for voters. But the MSM won't back that, the big two sure won't, and short of a stellar ballot performance it won't happen. Even now, only the Greens and the Libertarians get mention (another republicrat pair off), and the Constitution Party seldom gets mention. I support the Constitution Party Platform, for the most part, and will vote to bring that into the limelight.

Winning depends on the objective, frankly. If the objective is to gain exposure, bring the Party into the debate, and that is accomplished, I consider that a 'win', this time. I don't expect Castle and Bradley to win the election, but would like to see the Party rise from the obscurity the others languish in. Eventually, short of getting a place in the main debates, whichever of the smaller Parties could win enough EV to force the House to decide might have a shot at altering the political landscape, especially if the House vote is so finely split that one Party might be convinced to vote to deny the other the Presidency by voting for the Third Party candidate. Pipe dreams, I know.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #543 on: October 21, 2016, 10:41:50 pm »
@Smokin Joe

Quote
Pipe dreams, I know.


As I would infer from your screen name you have smoked plenty. At least now you are smokin' the right stuff.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #544 on: October 21, 2016, 10:57:42 pm »
@Smokin Joe
 

As I would infer from your screen name you have smoked plenty. At least now you are smokin' the right stuff.
Only an expression, Fred.  :laugh:(The nickname came from my days as a firefighter, although i smoked cigarettes and cigars for 35 years before i quit.)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #545 on: October 21, 2016, 11:43:44 pm »
Only an expression, Fred.  :laugh:(The nickname came from my days as a firefighter, although i smoked cigarettes and cigars for 35 years before i quit.)

I know the provenance of the nickname. And I wonder sometimes if it means you were really brave or just really slowwww.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #546 on: October 22, 2016, 12:13:32 am »

Yes lets split the vote 50/50 so the left will run roughshod for the next 30 years, just like the last 30...


Good plan.
You know what's a better plan? Keep voting for the same party that keeps giving us worse and worse candidates so the left will run roughshod for the next 30 years, just like the last 30. /sarc

The Republican Party is dying a slow and painful death right now. Either we prepare for it now by building the basis for the future of conservatism, or we continue to latch on to the sinking ship. Take your pick.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 12:16:05 am by jmyrlefuller »
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #547 on: October 22, 2016, 12:19:26 am »
You know what's a better plan? Keep voting for the same party that keeps giving us worse and worse candidates so the left will run roughshod for the next 30 years, just like the last 30.

What is bad is that same party's candidate is so far left that all that is left is voting for the left.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #548 on: October 22, 2016, 12:42:11 am »
I know the provenance of the nickname. And I wonder sometimes if it means you were really brave or just really slowwww.
The difference between brave, slow, and stupid (or lucky) is measured at times in milliseconds. That said, in my case it was more a quirk of temperature variation. Just after we knocked down the fire, I came out of the building, soaked and still 'pretty warm' into cold (20 degree) outside air, and the instant fog that formed around me looked like smoke. Someone saw it, and I got a nickname that stuck.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

HonestJohn

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #549 on: October 22, 2016, 12:50:48 am »
You know what's a better plan? Keep voting for the same party that keeps giving us worse and worse candidates so the left will run roughshod for the next 30 years, just like the last 30. /sarc

The Republican Party is dying a slow and painful death right now. Either we prepare for it now by building the basis for the future of conservatism, or we continue to latch on to the sinking ship. Take your pick.

We had 17 candidates this time around.  Many were quite good.

The problem isn't the party, per se, but the primary voters that *CHOOSE* the worst candidate of the bunch.