Author Topic: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump  (Read 67279 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2016, 09:36:03 pm »
And yet Trump is guilty of all of those things. Does he lie? Often. Has his life been a series of scandals? Absolutely-- he's been the subject of tabloid gossip and made-for-TV movies for decades. Would he continue Obama's policies? "The government's going to pay for it!" Does he take positions for naked political expediency? Of course he does; he has his base, and he is exploiting it; his position on Iraq is the same as Hillary's. Plus, I'm pretty sure Hillary never molested Chelsea, something I can't say about Donald and Ivanka. So the notion that people can use the specter of a Hillary Clinton presidency when the specter of a Donald Trump presidency is just as bad, if not worse, is not a good argument at all.

If you want people to stop Hillary Clinton, you'd better pick someone better than Hillary Clinton, which shouldn't have been that hard. In fact, technically, there's still time, since there are others on the ballot that fit the bill. Evan McMullin's eligible as a write-in in most states. Even Gary Johnson, for all his faults, would be an improvement, and he's on the ballot in all 50.

What you are saying is all true.  I'm not so sure that Trump is responsible though for 4 dead Americans, arming Syrian rebels, the rise of ISIS, Fast' n' Furious, etc., etc., 

I agree Castle with the Constitution Party, Johnson with the Libertarian party and McMullin as an IND would probably be an improvement.  Johnson's policies are very liberal as well and McMullin is too unknown.  I have faith in Castle, that's about it.  However, the chances are slim to none that he or either of the others will impact the election enough to hand the election over for a House decision. 
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2016, 09:40:08 pm »
Quote
Are the tens of millions of Americans who will pull the lever for Trump come November evil too, or just invincibly stupid?

Let's see...

The American voter at large elected then re-elected Obama.

Ok... I'll take door #2!

Invincibly stupid it is!
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 09:47:15 pm »
And guess what? We're still not joining you 'people' in voting for Donnie. So bitch away impotently. We simply will not be moved.


And you will make certain to keep telling us so.   



The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.




Piety overload.   
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Online corbe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2016, 09:48:53 pm »
Quote
A distinction must be made between those who supported some other GOP candidate and are backing Trump because he's not Hillary and those who supported Trump from the beginning.

The former are taking a bad situation and trying to make something good out of it.

@sinkspur

   Describes my Family, a few Trumpsters and the rest GOP, so we gotta do it - Hillary and all.

   So Sad, will be happier times when this is over and we can all get drunk together again.

No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2016, 09:48:55 pm »
William McGurn demonstrating that if you start with a logical fallacy (strawman), you can prove anything.

Unfortunately for him, the Never Trump position is based on Trump's fitness for office, and Trump's ridiculous behavior has settled that particular argument.


If "fitness for office"  were a concern,  we would never have had a "Precedent"  Obama,  and we would not now have a candidate Hillary.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2016, 09:51:13 pm »
I'm going with the latter.  At least there is finally an admission that we are indeed the conservative ones.


I am thinking Pharasees. 


The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2016, 09:51:53 pm »

And you will make certain to keep telling us so.   




Piety overload.
And guess what? We're still not joining you 'people' in voting for Donnie. So bitch away impotently. We simply will not be moved.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2016, 09:56:59 pm »
And guess what? We're still not joining you 'people' in voting for Donnie. So bitch away impotently. We simply will not be moved.


But you will keep telling us.   There is no scenario in which you will not thrust what you believe is "Piety" in our faces.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2016, 10:01:36 pm »

But you will keep telling us.   There is no scenario in which you will not thrust what you believe is "Piety" in our faces.

Sure there is. In that scenario, you commit to the selfless act of putting me on ignore and I'll never be in your face again.

See? I'm always helpful.

PS, YOU are throwing the 'piety' thing around sport. Not me. You just don't like hearing the truth of the situation. Thats where the ignore thing helps.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2016, 10:02:16 pm »
Why? If you run someone over, does it matter if it was in an F350 or a Kenworth? The end result and the damage wrought is the same. There is one correct position. Not voting for Trump. Period.

You are looking to absolve a friend or relative. You are looking to split the baby. Actions have consequences. Ethics arent situational.

No. At this point, it doesn't matter, Norm.  Trump is finished and I can understand those who will vote for Trump to oppose Hillary.  I won't vote for either.  My family are all Democrats so they're voting for Hillary.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2016, 10:05:38 pm »
No. At this point, it doesn't matter, Norm.  Trump is finished and I can understand those who will vote for Trump to oppose Hillary.  I won't vote for either.  My family are all Democrats so they're voting for Hillary.

Of course it matters. They will do it again in two years, then again in two more.Thats how we got here isn't it? Yup. It is.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2016, 10:06:50 pm »
Sure there is. In that scenario, you commit to the selfless act of putting me on ignore and I'll never be in your face again.

See? I'm always helpful.

PS, YOU are throwing the 'piety' thing around sport. Not me. You just don't like hearing the truth of the situation. Thats where the ignore thing helps.



It did the Jews no good to ignore the Nazis.   The danger posed was not that the Jews would listen to them,  but that other people would,  and thereby aid the Nazis in their destructive efforts. 


Those who voted third party brought Hitler to power,  and History appears to be repeating itself again. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2016, 10:09:37 pm »


It did the Jews no good to ignore the Nazis.   The danger posed was not that the Jews would listen to them,  but that other people would,  and thereby aid the Nazis in their destructive efforts. 


Those who voted third party brought Hitler to power,  and History appears to be repeating itself again.

Hey Mods!

Need a rule clarification.

Is it, or is it not OK to inject Hitler and Nazi references into debates about Trump?

Can we get a ruling on that please?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 10:10:48 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2016, 10:12:12 pm »
Hey Mods!

Need a rule clarification.

Is it, or is it not OK to inject Hitler and Nazi references into debates about Trump?

Can we get a ruling on that please?

How very totalitarian of you. 


Are there other periods of history or other comparisons you would like to censor?   


Just so we know where the speech boundaries are.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2016, 10:13:53 pm »
How very totalitarian of you. 


Are there other periods of history or other comparisons you would like to censor?   


Just so we know where the speech boundaries are.

You ain't the brightest bulb in that lamp, are you?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2016, 10:32:46 pm »


It did the Jews no good to ignore the Nazis.   The danger posed was not that the Jews would listen to them,  but that other people would,  and thereby aid the Nazis in their destructive efforts. 


Those who voted third party brought Hitler to power,  and History appears to be repeating itself again.

Good God there really is no limit to the stupidity of the Trump supporter. None at all.

Oceander

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2016, 10:35:54 pm »
How very totalitarian of you. 


Are there other periods of history or other comparisons you would like to censor?   


Just so we know where the speech boundaries are.   




@mystery-ak
@DiogenesLamp
You know, or should know, that the owners have asked that members not make references to Hitler or Nazism because those references are so inflammatory by their very nature.  It's not a matter of @Luis Gonzalez trying to censor history, it's about trying to keep some slight modicum of peace here.

Oceander

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2016, 10:37:41 pm »


It did the Jews no good to ignore the Nazis.   The danger posed was not that the Jews would listen to them,  but that other people would,  and thereby aid the Nazis in their destructive efforts. 


Those who voted third party brought Hitler to power,  and History appears to be repeating itself again. 




The same could be said for Trump:  the danger is not that #NeverTrumps will not hear him, but that others - Trumpists and alt-rightists - will hear him and assist him in destroying the country.  He's already poured quite enough fuel on the violent insurrection pyre.

Offline Mod2

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2016, 10:46:33 pm »
Hey Mods!

Need a rule clarification.

Is it, or is it not OK to inject Hitler and Nazi references into debates about Trump?

Can we get a ruling on that please?

Don't call Trump supporters brownshirts. Or Hilter Youth. Don't use Hitler/Nazi/Fascist as a lazy argument.

Specific historical parallels, sure. They're fine.

Offline TomSea

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2016, 10:50:37 pm »
Trump has not been involved in any wars, as the Clintons, Obamas and Bushes have.

The Democrats per black pro-life activists have been killing off the black community.

http://blackgenocide.org/

Offline XenaLee

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2016, 10:55:08 pm »
I'm sure to get ridiculed for this by the usual suspects, but this really hit me.

I've done my share of mocking of Trump supporters, some here, mostly at TOS.  And it ashames me to admit it, but I think some of that was some latent elitism.  I'm well-educated, etc., and it is extremely seductive to slip into a tone of mocking condescension for those who aren't as educated, or aren't as good as many others in either written or verbal expression.   It's so easy to dismiss someone else's concerns just because you can make them look foolish in an argument, and it can be a bit of an ego boost as well.  "See how badly I defeated you in this discussion?  See how much better I am than you?"

I had a bit of that assholery in me when I first got commissioned.  It took spending a lot of time among enlisted Marines for me to pull my head out of my ass and realize I wasn't a better person, or a better man, simply because I was more educated or intelligent in an academic sense.  Other people can be good, decent, very capable individuals ever though politics, etc., is not their forte, and even though they haven't honed their rhetorical and linguistic skills.

I think the nomination of Trump was a terrible mistake that will cost our country dearly.  But I don't think it means that those who supported him are bad people, bad Americans, or somehow lesser for it.  Many of them are "salt of the earth" types whom we might admire and respect if politics didn't enter into it.  Rougher language, etc, may be more common, but it doesn't make them bad.  They're pissed off at some things at which they had good caused to be pissed, and just misjudged the best avenue for channeling that anger.

Anyway, I'm not participating in any more of the election stuff, but I do want to apologise here to anyone if I acted the condescending bleep.

Your honest introspection is respected and the apology is much appreciated ...even though I'm not aware of your bad behavior on your part, if it exists.  Suffice to say....you are not the typical Trump zealot that many of us have observed.

As for anger issues, there's a lot of that on all sides of every issue this year.  Let's hope that we and the nation can get past it and go on to heal and mend fences.  Not looking hopeful at this point, however.  I much suspect that when Trump loses, he will continue to attempt to poison the well....

and will succeed.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline endicom

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2016, 11:07:21 pm »
Don't call Trump supporters brownshirts. Or Hilter Youth. Don't use Hitler/Nazi/Fascist as a lazy argument.

Specific historical parallels, sure. They're fine.


Thank you.

Silver Pines

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2016, 11:21:35 pm »
If you want people to stop Hillary Clinton, you'd better pick someone better than Hillary Clinton, which shouldn't have been that hard. In fact, technically, there's still time, since there are others on the ballot that fit the bill. Evan McMullin's eligible as a write-in in most states. Even Gary Johnson, for all his faults, would be an improvement, and he's on the ballot in all 50.

@jmyrlefuller

McMullin is on the ballot in some states, including Virginia, where I live.  I checked with the voter registrar to make sure, and he's indeed on our ballot as an independent.  He'll get our votes.

https://www.evanmcmullin.com/vote

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2016, 11:58:55 pm »
I'm sure to get ridiculed for this by the usual suspects, but this really hit me.

I've done my share of mocking of Trump supporters, some here, mostly at TOS.  And it ashames me to admit it, but I think some of that was some latent elitism.  I'm well-educated, etc., and it is extremely seductive to slip into a tone of mocking condescension for those who aren't as educated, or aren't as good as many others in either written or verbal expression.   It's so easy to dismiss someone else's concerns just because you can make them look foolish in an argument, and it can be a bit of an ego boost as well.  "See how badly I defeated you in this discussion?  See how much better I am than you?"

I had a bit of that assholery in me when I first got commissioned.  It took spending a lot of time among enlisted Marines for me to pull my head out of my ass and realize I wasn't a better person, or a better man, simply because I was more educated or intelligent in an academic sense.  Other people can be good, decent, very capable individuals ever though politics, etc., is not their forte, and even though they haven't honed their rhetorical and linguistic skills.

I think the nomination of Trump was a terrible mistake that will cost our country dearly.  But I don't think it means that those who supported him are bad people, bad Americans, or somehow lesser for it.  Many of them are "salt of the earth" types whom we might admire and respect if politics didn't enter into it.  Rougher language, etc, may be more common, but it doesn't make them bad.  They're pissed off at some things at which they had good caused to be pissed, and just misjudged the best avenue for channeling that anger.

Anyway, I'm not participating in any more of the election stuff, but I do want to apologise here to anyone if I acted the condescending bleep.
The odd part in all this is that if the discussion was just on the issues, we'd all likely agree, and not just on what is a problem, but on a lot of the solutions, too. It wasn't Trump's originally claimed political stance at the start of the Primary season that was so terribly different from the next Conservative over, it was his behaviour once the ball got rolling that caused a breach of faith, of trust, and finally, the Party. Some followed the man, others stayed with principles. Burying principles to support a person some see as the one to repair what will take all of us working hard to fix this Republic is where we will disagree.
It isn't the problem, so much as the proposed solution.

Perhaps when this disaster is over those of us who want to restore the Republic can craft a plan to do so.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2016, 11:59:09 pm »
Don't call Trump supporters brownshirts. Or Hilter Youth. Don't use Hitler/Nazi/Fascist as a lazy argument.

Specific historical parallels, sure. They're fine.

So like "Trump supporters are like the Nazi brownshirts that killed Jews" = no bueno, but "Trump detractors are like the blind and clueless Jews who allowed themselves to be slaughtered like sheep by Nazi brownshirts" is A OK.

Got it.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 11:59:43 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx