Author Topic: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution  (Read 1270 times)

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« on: October 13, 2016, 05:54:36 pm »
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Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
By Laura Hollis
Published Oct. 13, 2016

Before I attempt to make the point of this week's column, I want to be clear that in this past election cycle, I have been firmly on the side of conservative voters who are completely and utterly fed up with national Republican leadership. As has already been discussed and dissected ad nauseum, after Obamacare passed without a single Republican vote, the GOP begged voters to give them control of the House, which they received in 2010. And they did nothing. They explained that away by insisting that they needed control of the Senate. Again, voters obliged. (And this after a government shutdown in 2013 that our diligently Democrat media warned would produce a bloodbath for the GOP at the polls.) The 2014 elections were a blowout in favor of Republicans.

We waited for legislation addressing the national debt, illegal immigration, the disintegrating debacle that is Obamacare — something. Anything. Aaaannnnd — crickets. The only thing the Republican-controlled Congress did was give President Obama the budgets he wanted. Former House Speaker John Boehner was the first casualty, only to be replaced by Paul Ryan, who has done more of the same — including money for abortion providing Planned Parenthood, the bane of conservative voters across the country. In fact, the GOP caved on funding Planned Parenthood not once, but twice — first, in the omnibus spending bill passed last year, and more recently last month when Democrats held up over a billion dollars to help fight the Zika virus unless there was money for Planned Parenthood in the spending bill. Again, congressional Republicans ran up the white flag.


Read more at http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1016/hollis101316.php3#fc6IXkFeryZYDaAv.99

Good read. She really gets into the catch 22 scenario the Republican party has backed us into.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2016, 05:55:53 pm »
Good read. She really gets into the catch 22 scenario the Republican party has backed us into.

We could have stopped ObamaCare, if it weren't for Chief Judas Roberts.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 06:01:47 pm »
We could have stopped ObamaCare, if it weren't for Chief Judas Roberts.
Yep, I hope he's happy. He was the original master of the brilliant 6th dimensional chess move and if that was his plan it sure backfired. Obama care is going to lead to government controlled single payer just like the Democrats always wanted.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 01:45:32 am »
Laura Hollis writes:
"And this has inflamed voters' ire even further. I noticed a day or so ago that my Twitter feed was suddenly filled with Trump supporters who were vowing not to vote for any other Republicans down-ticket. Some stated that they would refuse to cast votes. Others promised to vote for Democrats. They're furious — as I said, I get it. But this is insanity. You fight your own during the primary season — not during the general elections."

On November 8th, I'll mark the ballot for EVERY Republican name that appears on it.

Guess I've become something of a doctrinaire voter, in that I will never vote for a democrat again, only Republicans, right down the party line.

I do what I have to do.
(Hey, don't the leftie-commies do that, too?)

Not that my vote will make any difference here (in Connecticut).
I expect EVERY Republican for statewide and national office to lose, and lose badly. This is one of the most deep-blue states, and its routine for the 'rats to wipe the noses of anyone who has the temerity to try to run as a Republican.

A few local Pubbie candidates can win here, but probably not in my voting district.

Being Republican in CT these days is like Sisyphus, pushin' the rock uphill!

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 02:06:15 am »
Yep, I hope he's happy. He was the original master of the brilliant 6th dimensional chess move and if that was his plan it sure backfired. Obama care is going to lead to government controlled single payer just like the Democrats always wanted.

Yet another reason I will never vote for anyone named "Bush" again.

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 02:06:42 am »
We could have stopped ObamaCare, if it weren't for Chief Judas Roberts.

bullshit.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2016, 03:09:06 am »
Yep, I hope he's happy. He was the original master of the brilliant 6th dimensional chess move and if that was his plan it sure backfired. Obama care is going to lead to government controlled single payer just like the Democrats always wanted.
He should have been impeached over that.

He REWROTE the law. Not his job, and an unconstitutional act.

The law he then ruled as okay was in itself unconstitutional because the new "tax" originated in the Senate, and not the House, where revenue measures are Constitutionally required to originate.

He should have been removed from the Bench. The only downside is that we would have been stuck with yet another liberal appointee.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 03:37:47 pm »
He should have been impeached over that.

He REWROTE the law. Not his job, and an unconstitutional act.

The law he then ruled as okay was in itself unconstitutional because the new "tax" originated in the Senate, and not the House, where revenue measures are Constitutionally required to originate.

He should have been removed from the Bench. The only downside is that we would have been stuck with yet another liberal appointee.
Agreed. At best it should have been struck down as Constitutional with an explanation of how to make it legal; at which point the house and senate would have to pass said law. As it stands now we are living under a law authored by one man and not the representatives of the people.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2016, 04:01:20 pm »

bullshit.

Succinct and correct.  But some folks always need a scapegoat.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2016, 04:02:22 pm »
Succinct and correct.  But some folks always need a scapegoat.

Are you saying we would have gotten stuck with ObamaCare had the SCOTUS struck it down?

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2016, 04:04:06 pm »
Are you saying we would have gotten stuck with ObamaCare had the SCOTUS struck it down?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2016, 04:04:36 pm »
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

How so?

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2016, 04:05:11 pm »

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 04:11:11 pm »
How so?

Less smarmily:  Roberts' ruling was not actually wrong -- he pointed out that whatever euphemism the legislation used, in reality it was imposing a tax, which Congress is authorized to levy.

Should the USSC have returned the legislation to Congress to fix the wording, it would almost certainly have passed, primarily for political reasons.  After all: Congress has not actually done anything about Obamacare despite the Republican majority -- with the current media environment it would be a political disaster.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2016, 04:15:47 pm »
Less smarmily:  Roberts' ruling was not actually wrong -- he pointed out that whatever euphemism the legislation used, in reality it was imposing a tax, which Congress is authorized to levy.

Should the USSC have returned the legislation to Congress to fix the wording, it would almost certainly have passed, primarily for political reasons.  After all: Congress has not actually done anything about Obamacare despite the Republican majority -- with the current media environment it would be a political disaster.
A very depressing and possible reality. I would have liked to have seen them have to get blood on their hands twice to pass it into actual law in that scenario.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 04:16:23 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 04:16:06 pm »
Less smarmily:  Roberts' ruling was not actually wrong -- he pointed out that whatever euphemism the legislation used, in reality it was imposing a tax, which Congress is authorized to levy.

Should the USSC have returned the legislation to Congress to fix the wording, it would almost certainly have passed, primarily for political reasons.  After all: Congress has not actually done anything about Obamacare despite the Republican majority -- with the current media environment it would be a political disaster.
While Congress is authorized to levy taxes, such measures are required to originate in the House of Representatives. The penalty that Roberts rewrote into a "tax" originated in the Senate.

His job was to rule on the constitutionality of the law. He rewrote it. Not his job and exceeds the authority of the Court.
That's unconstitutional.

The revenue measure in the law originated in the Senate, and not the House.
That's unconstitutional.

He should have been impeached.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 04:21:24 pm »
While Congress is authorized to levy taxes, such measures are required to originate in the House of Representatives. The penalty that Roberts rewrote into a "tax" originated in the Senate.

His job was to rule on the constitutionality of the law. He rewrote it. Not his job and exceeds the authority of the Court.
That's unconstitutional.

The revenue measure in the law originated in the Senate, and not the House.
That's unconstitutional.

He should have been impeached.

We can agree that the entire process by which the legislation was passed was rotten to the core.  IIRC, the law was essentially an empty shell, which was filled by the "reconciliation process" between House and Senate.  Reconciliation has long been seen as a "rules" issue, rather than a constitutional one.  It was horribly abused in this instance (as in others), but I don't think it would be found unconstitutional.

However, the overarching legislation itself was initiated in the House, and on that basis your argument fails. 

« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 04:22:27 pm by r9etb »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2016, 05:31:11 pm »
We can agree that the entire process by which the legislation was passed was rotten to the core.  IIRC, the law was essentially an empty shell, which was filled by the "reconciliation process" between House and Senate.  Reconciliation has long been seen as a "rules" issue, rather than a constitutional one.  It was horribly abused in this instance (as in others), but I don't think it would be found unconstitutional.

However, the overarching legislation itself was initiated in the House, and on that basis your argument fails.
It does not matter that the legislation originated in the House, the penalty came from the Senate. By changing that to a 'tax'--a revenue measure, the origin of that tax is still wrong, on two counts. First, the language enabling that revenue generation as a penalty originated in the Senate, not the House.
It is still a two-part argument. Chief Justice Roberts, nor any other justice of the Supreme Court, is authorized by the Constitution to change the wording of legislation, an act that in itself is "legislating", and not the purview of the Court. Such changes, in effect, are writing law, and are not the duty of the Court.
In doing so, he exceeded his authority.
The Congress insisted loud and long that the penalty was, in fact, a penalty and not a "tax". They made a point of that and the matter was discussed at length before the legislation was passed, and even afterwards. For Roberts to change the wording, and thus, the meaning, to something the Congress had insisted was not the correct term was overreach and a violation of the separation of powers. Still unconstitutional.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2016, 06:19:00 pm »
It does not matter that the legislation originated in the House, the penalty came from the Senate. By changing that to a 'tax'--a revenue measure, the origin of that tax is still wrong, on two counts. First, the language enabling that revenue generation as a penalty originated in the Senate, not the House.

The Constitution appears to differ with your assessment.

As I noted, it was done as part of "reconciliation" of House and Senate bills, something that is done all the time, for pretty much every bill ever passed in Congress.  The reconciliation process -- much abused -- is governed by rules that are covered by Article I, Section 5. 

As to your particular point, Article I, Section 7 states: "All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."

So, as part of reconciliation according to the rules of both houses, the Senate constitutionally proposed an amendment (as on other Bills) related to fees.  The Bill itself did in fact originate in the House.


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2016, 08:08:33 pm »
The Constitution appears to differ with your assessment.

As I noted, it was done as part of "reconciliation" of House and Senate bills, something that is done all the time, for pretty much every bill ever passed in Congress.  The reconciliation process -- much abused -- is governed by rules that are covered by Article I, Section 5. 

As to your particular point, Article I, Section 7 states: "All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."

So, as part of reconciliation according to the rules of both houses, the Senate constitutionally proposed an amendment (as on other Bills) related to fees.  The Bill itself did in fact originate in the House.
Well, now, I am at least a dissenting opinion.
The Senate did not amend, but created the revenue portion of the measure. Had it changed something which existed in the original House bill, such as amount, of the penalty, that might be different.

You did not address the judicial overreach necessary to change the wording of the law. SCOTUS rules on the law, they don't write them (nor rewrite). The latter is the purview of Congress. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2016, 08:46:07 pm »
Well, now, I am at least a dissenting opinion.
The Senate did not amend, but created the revenue portion of the measure. Had it changed something which existed in the original House bill, such as amount, of the penalty, that might be different.

Nevertheless, the House did originate the bill to which "penalties" were added during reconciliation.  According to the rules of the House and Senate, "reconciliation" has a very broad scope.  (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_States_Congress%29 for a good discussion).  Reconciliation can, as in this case, be very badly abused -- and yet remain within the letter of Constitutional authority in accordance with the sections I cited.

Quote
You did not address the judicial overreach necessary to change the wording of the law. SCOTUS rules on the law, they don't write them (nor rewrite). The latter is the purview of Congress.

I did, earlier.  Roberts ruled that, whatever the wording was -- "penalties," IIRC -- in reality they were taxes in all but name, and as such Congress was authorized to levy them.  (The full opinion lays it all out: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf)

Specifically:
Quote
The Affordable Care Act describes the “shared responsibilitypayment” as a “penalty,” not a “tax.” That label is fatal to the application of the Anti-Injunction Act. It does not, however, control whether an exaction is within Congress’s power to tax....

Rather amusingly (in a train wreck sort of way), prior to the bill passing we were all arguing that the penalties were in reality a tax and should be called such.  Indeed, I think most of us would still agree that the "penalties" were, and still are "taxes." 

So I've always thought it a bit disingenuous that the same people would subsequently direct such anger at Roberts, who in his opinion merely acknowledged the reality of what we were saying all along.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 08:46:48 pm by r9etb »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2016, 09:01:56 pm »
Bookmark.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2016, 11:15:08 pm »
Nevertheless, the House did originate the bill to which "penalties" were added during reconciliation.  According to the rules of the House and Senate, "reconciliation" has a very broad scope.  (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_States_Congress%29 for a good discussion).  Reconciliation can, as in this case, be very badly abused -- and yet remain within the letter of Constitutional authority in accordance with the sections I cited.

I did, earlier.  Roberts ruled that, whatever the wording was -- "penalties," IIRC -- in reality they were taxes in all but name, and as such Congress was authorized to levy them.  (The full opinion lays it all out: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf)

Specifically:
Rather amusingly (in a train wreck sort of way), prior to the bill passing we were all arguing that the penalties were in reality a tax and should be called such.  Indeed, I think most of us would still agree that the "penalties" were, and still are "taxes." 

So I've always thought it a bit disingenuous that the same people would subsequently direct such anger at Roberts, who in his opinion merely acknowledged the reality of what we were saying all along.
IF the Congress had honestly owned up to the fact that it was, indeed, a tax on breathing, the populace would have marched on DC. Instead, they went to great lengths to define that 'tax' as a penalty for noncompliance, and insisted voluminously that that was the case. Their statements make both the language and intent of the penalty quite clear.

I can't recall how many times I heard or read the 'not a tax' line during that time frame.

To have Roberts redefine it as such, and still find for the law is just wrong.

It isn't his job to change the letter of the law, just to rule on it. The law says what the law says. If the Congress can't write a law that is worded right on such a seminal issue, send the damned law back, there are liable to be a multitude of other nuggets of carelessness and imprecision contained in it--especially one that extensive. Make them do their job, don't do it for them. Because that was not his job, nor is it the purview of the courts to write legislation, he exceeded his Constitutional Authorization and violated the separation of powers.

Does the Congress rule on whether laws are Constitutional? No. Their job is to write the laws. Not enforce them, not rule on whether or not they pass Constitutional muster.

Without that separation, there are no checks nor balances, and the system, OUR system of government is not functioning as designed. (I know, that's a real 'sherlock moment').

Of all the opinions on the court, his was the one which people were sure would overturn the law. The premise of the tax is that a person is living. Nothing more. If no other act is performed, the tax applies. Just keep breathing.

The only way to avoid the tax, short of being deprived of property, is by dying.
It is a tax on life itself, a most fundamental and unalienable Right.

Don't tell me about Medicaid or subsidies, I know for a fact that there are instances of people with zero income who were denied. Therefore they will be subject to the penalty/tax, and have to pay out of pocket for health care or insurance. A single male in this state would pay over 24K a year for insurance (enough to live modestly off of), and still have to pay for deductibles, medication,  and copays provided they actually need medical care. I know of people whose insurance companies got out of the health insurance business and who lost coverage they had been carrying for decades in some cases.

Nope, that blood is on Roberts' hands.

Time for my little Reynolds Wrap chapeau, but I'd say the intention is to kill off older folks, partly because those who remember a more free America are a pain in the asses of those who want to enslave it. /tinfoil.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 11:16:13 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: Consequences of Disregarding the Constitution
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2016, 03:13:36 am »
IF the Congress had honestly owned up to the fact that it was, indeed, a tax on breathing, the populace would have marched on DC. Instead, they went to great lengths to define that 'tax' as a penalty for noncompliance, and insisted voluminously that that was the case. Their statements make both the language and intent of the penalty quite clear.

That's a fair assessment of the Democrats' mendacity on the topic.  Nevertheless.....

Quote
To have Roberts redefine it as such, and still find for the law is just wrong.

It isn't his job to change the letter of the law, just to rule on it.

But you've just said that it's a tax, no matter what the Democrats called it.  To say that Roberts couldn't do the same is disingenuous.  Furthermore, in their arguments before the court, the government (i.e., Obama and team) argued that, in fact, it was a tax after all, names aside.

From a letter-of-the-law perspective, my opinion is that Roberts' ruling was unpleasant but ultimately correct. 

But there was also much in his ruling (e.g., the part saying the gov't can't extort desired behavior by withholding funds) that was good, far more important, and farther-reaching. 

The anger directed toward Roberts seems to me to be rather typical of situations in which we conservatives rest our ardent hope on some single wave of the magic wand, only to have it dashed.  (And conservatives seem to fall prey to that all the time.)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 03:15:52 am by r9etb »